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anotherengineer
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Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:50 pm

I lol'd

http://www.amazon.ca/Globe-Electric-313 ... ee_p_img_7

Last I heard was they were supposed to be banning incandescents, but I guess under retro or decorative it's good to go??
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:18 pm

They have some of those at our fancy new office, and I have to say, they're only for decoration. They cast almost no light at all, and are more likely to cast shadows from the florescents set higher up against the ceiling. And from where I sit, I can see 2 of the 10 are burnt out already (maaaybe 4-5 months use).
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uwsalt
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:32 pm

Yes, "decorative" lights are permitted under an exception. Coincidentally, I used six of the exact same bulbs you linked in an antique (1920s) ceiling light fixture, which I cleaned, polished, rewired, and hung over my dining room table. The house itself is the same vintage and the lamp looks great. The fixture doesn't have shades or other coverings for the bulbs, which are exposed.

Fitting LED bulbs into that fixture is certainly possible and I don't think the added weight would be an issue. But that wouldn't solve the other issue: it would look garish and ridiculous. And it goes without saying that a compact fluorescent was never an option. A clear incandescent bulb would look alright, or at least inoffensive, but the old Edison-style bulbs with the warm light and cage filament look far better.

The banning and restricting of incandescent bulbs is needless regulation at best and idiotic at worst. LED lights are preferable for most normal home applications and most people are more than happy to replace their old incandescent with LEDs when possible. But there are useful applications for incandescent bulbs, even with the advent of improving LED lights, and it's annoying that those bulbs will be increasingly difficult to find.
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:25 pm

This debate just took a wild turn:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M4O6NQK

Bam! 2.5W LED that looks like a 40W vintage bulb.

Check it out in action:

https://twitter.com/scottwasson/status/ ... 3159966720

They come in different shapes and sizes now, too, including this:

http://www.amazon.com/LED2020-Vintage-F ... B00O7WKV7E

2400K for a warm glow. We don't need a ban to make the switch when LEDs get to be this good.
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:34 pm

I'm surprised Damage that you don't make your own bulbs at this point.
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Damage
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:41 pm

Heh. I have a monster blog post or two coming up on LED bulbs. The ongoing innovation is insane.
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:53 pm

Damage wrote:
Bam! 2.5W LED that looks like a 40W vintage bulb.

Sorcery!
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:58 pm

uwsalt wrote:
The banning and restricting of incandescent bulbs is needless regulation at best and idiotic at worst. LED lights are preferable for most normal home applications and most people are more than happy to replace their old incandescent with LEDs when possible.


Really, the main reason to prefer a LED bulb is efficiency - which is great - but in terms of light quality, I still don't like LED. There is a cold, harsh quality to the light they produce.

But there are useful applications for incandescent bulbs, even with the advent of improving LED lights, and it's annoying that those bulbs will be increasingly difficult to find.


It's been especially hard to find three-way bulbs and bulbs that work well with a dimmer.
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:40 pm

cphite wrote:
It's been especially hard to find three-way bulbs and bulbs that work well with a dimmer.


I still have a pair of those halogen double-bulb thingies in the dining room for this reason. An incandescent, when dimmed, goes to a lower color temperature which gives it "that look". A dimmed LED, even when the fixture handles the process correctly, just goes to a lower brightness level, which works for some applications but looks garish if the goal was mood lighting.
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w76
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:56 pm

That LED bulb doesn't look nearly as good as some antique or retro bulbs I've seen, but I don't think it was trying to replace those specifically, just the appearance of a traditional looking bulb. Interesting to know you can at least get close.

But for purely stylistic purposes, arguing to put an LED in a light fixture like someone above points out is like pointing out to an owner of a 1950s Corvette that they could much more efficiently and safely move from point A to point B on the weekend in a Prius. That's not the point.

Edit: And just so no one thinks I'm trolling LEDs blindly, actually almost all my lighting is now LEDs, those Cree's are great. But not all. Incandescents are still in my dining room, 'cause when I'm entertaining, I'm not worrying about the extra 2 pennies it might cost me, I've probably already dropped exponentially more then that on groceries & booze.
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:32 pm

Damage wrote:
Heh. I have a monster blog post or two coming up on LED bulbs. The ongoing innovation is insane.


It would be nice to see tech sites realize that the LED bulb thing is largely a scam to push high profit margin bulbs on consumers since the dollar is worthless. Its about multi billion dollar companies profits increasing by outsourcing to China and scamming gullible consumers into buying something worse than what it replaces.

http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/industr ... le/2541430

Hopefully that "innovation" includes a CRI that doesnt suck and a spectral power distribution that doest cause retinal pigment epithelium damage like most of the LED bulbs on the market today.

I realize that LED lighting has its place and i do actually use some warm floods as security lighting but until they can make a semiconductor that outperforms a black body radiator, its all incandescent bulbs in rooms where i spend time and want good color.
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:54 pm

Damage wrote:
This debate just took a wild turn:

Bam! 2.5W LED that looks like a 40W vintage bulb. . . .

They come in different shapes and sizes now, too, including this:

2400K for a warm glow. We don't need a ban to make the switch when LEDs get to be this good.

I hadn't seen those; they're pretty nifty. It's too bad the Edison-style LED bulbs aren't dimmable, which I expect most people would want in a living or dining room setup, but they may get it worked out eventually. It looks like Archipelago Lighting sells a similar 30W bulb that can be dimmed, though one reviewer has qualms with how the dimming actually works in practice. They're at least worth considering, depending on the application.
 
just brew it!
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:27 pm

ludi wrote:
cphite wrote:
It's been especially hard to find three-way bulbs and bulbs that work well with a dimmer.


I still have a pair of those halogen double-bulb thingies in the dining room for this reason. An incandescent, when dimmed, goes to a lower color temperature which gives it "that look". A dimmed LED, even when the fixture handles the process correctly, just goes to a lower brightness level, which works for some applications but looks garish if the goal was mood lighting.

Hmm... you could actually make an LED bulb that changes color temperature as it dims if you used RGB LEDs instead of white.
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:25 pm

cphite wrote:

It's been especially hard to find three-way bulbs and bulbs that work well with a dimmer.


Yup. There's nothing like a good three-way.
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:58 pm

just brew it! wrote:
ludi wrote:
cphite wrote:
It's been especially hard to find three-way bulbs and bulbs that work well with a dimmer.


I still have a pair of those halogen double-bulb thingies in the dining room for this reason. An incandescent, when dimmed, goes to a lower color temperature which gives it "that look". A dimmed LED, even when the fixture handles the process correctly, just goes to a lower brightness level, which works for some applications but looks garish if the goal was mood lighting.

Hmm... you could actually make an LED bulb that changes color temperature as it dims if you used RGB LEDs instead of white.


Black body radiators do not have a spectral power distribution that can be simulated with three colors. You seriously need to google spectral power distribution and correlated color temperature.
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:58 pm

just brew it! wrote:
ludi wrote:
cphite wrote:
It's been especially hard to find three-way bulbs and bulbs that work well with a dimmer.


I still have a pair of those halogen double-bulb thingies in the dining room for this reason. An incandescent, when dimmed, goes to a lower color temperature which gives it "that look". A dimmed LED, even when the fixture handles the process correctly, just goes to a lower brightness level, which works for some applications but looks garish if the goal was mood lighting.

Hmm... you could actually make an LED bulb that changes color temperature as it dims if you used RGB LEDs instead of white.

That is an idea. I imagine the market for it would be a bit specialized, although since we have remote-controlled color-changing lamps selling off-the-shelf these days, it's not entirely outlandish.

Of course, another approach might be to include a second, lower-power, white LED with a strong red-orange bias and begin shifting it to higher intensity while dimming the primary element.
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BlackDove
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:52 pm

Youd need a complex electronic controller and even with one it would still have a terrible CRI and metamerism index(which no one mentions but is incredibly important) because it wouldnt have the spectral power distribution of a black body radiator.

Please stop talking about color temperature. Its not the same as spectral power distribution.
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:20 pm

BlackDove, lighting sources, even imperfect ones, are commonly described by their general perceived hue relative to a blackbody radiator. While this may not be quite as precise as a Ph.D. in optical physics like yourself would prefer, they will continue to suffice for this discussion, since a person who runs around the Home Depot lecturing people on the precise meaning of "Spectral Power Density" generally doesn't get invited to many parties.
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BlackDove
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:24 pm

ludi wrote:
BlackDove, lighting sources, even imperfect ones, are commonly described by their general perceived hue relative to a blackbody radiator. While this may not be quite as precise as a Ph.D. in optical physics like yourself would prefer, they will continue to suffice for this discussion, since a person who runs around the Home Depot lecturing people on the precise meaning of "Spectral Power Density" generally doesn't get invited to many parties.


Im not at Home Depot though. Im on a tech forum with supposedly tech savvy people who apparently dont know anything about the garbage products they buy.

Learn how stuff works instead of ad hominem.
 
UberGerbil
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:26 pm

Yeah, I laughed a bit when these showed up in an email a while back.
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:20 pm

UberGerbil wrote:
Yeah, I laughed a bit when these showed up in an email a while back.

Did you try any, and if so, how well did they work? I've been tempted to try something like that for the bathroom vanities, but for $15-20 bulb, I worry whether the LED 'strands' will have a commensurate life span.
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UberGerbil
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:24 pm

ludi wrote:
UberGerbil wrote:
Yeah, I laughed a bit when these showed up in an email a while back.

Did you try any, and if so, how well did they work? I've been tempted to try something like that for the bathroom vanities, but for $15-20 bulb, I worry whether the LED 'strands' will have a commensurate life span.
I have not. I'm on their mailing list because I purchased specialized LEDs to replace some automotive bulbs (didn't want to ever again have to take apart a bunch of screws and clips to replace some very problematic bulbs, and also was able to boost the lumens of my parking/running lights 10x). I have been in a couple of recently-opened restaurants that have these sorts of bulbs (I checked closely because I was curious, and sure enough they were LED) but I have no idea if they were these exact ones nor do I have any info on their longevity. One of their videos on YouTube suggests using these to replace bathroom vanity bulbs and claims 30,000 hours, but those claims are always a bit suspect. The gold-tinted in particular would probably be particularly flattering for decorative purposes (perhaps not so much for detailed lady-work in bathrooms), and they can be dimmed (1:00 mark).

Something that puzzles me is what exactly is going on with outer glass bulb itself. Obviously since these are LEDs not filaments it doesn't need to contain a vacuum, and presumably it doesn't, but LEDs do put off heat: is it vented to allow hot air to escape?
 
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:35 pm

They're low enough wattage that they can probably get away with not having vents or heatsinks. Also, since a particular aesthetic is the overriding concern here, they may have compromised on LED lifetime a bit by running them a little hot.

Edit: Hmm... there might actually be a solution at that site to the question I posted in this other recent thread. Their 1.9W vintage style bulb just might do the trick. It's not a globe, but it is small enough that it ought to fit the fixture. And at under 8W total for the fixture I can't imagine it getting hot enough to be an issue. Light output will be a bit lower than the 4x 25W incandescents they would replace, but I think it will still be acceptable.
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just brew it!
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:26 pm

BlackDove wrote:
ludi wrote:
BlackDove, lighting sources, even imperfect ones, are commonly described by their general perceived hue relative to a blackbody radiator. While this may not be quite as precise as a Ph.D. in optical physics like yourself would prefer, they will continue to suffice for this discussion, since a person who runs around the Home Depot lecturing people on the precise meaning of "Spectral Power Density" generally doesn't get invited to many parties.

Im not at Home Depot though. Im on a tech forum with supposedly tech savvy people who apparently dont know anything about the garbage products they buy.

Learn how stuff works instead of ad hominem.

As an ad hominem it barely qualifies, and it is in fact a pretty accurate (albeit snarky) paraphrasing of your behavior. The fact that you jump into every thread that mentions LEDs to post your anti-LED diatribes has pretty much guaranteed that most people are going to ignore your posts on the topic (at best), or respond with snark (at worst).

I've been tempted to ask on multiple prior occasions whether you own stock in an incandescent bulb factory, but have refrained from doing so (until now). :lol:

And yes, some of the stuff I've read as a result of your posts has even been interesting/educational. But you come off as so militantly anti-LED that it is rather difficult to take you seriously.
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:19 pm

just brew it! wrote:
....The fact that you jump into every thread that mentions LEDs to post your anti-LED diatribes has pretty much guaranteed that most people are going to ignore your posts on the topic (at best), or respond with snark (at worst).
....And yes, some of the stuff I've read as a result of your posts has even been interesting/educational. But you come off as so militantly anti-LED that it is rather difficult to take you seriously.

This. I've also learned a few things from Blackdove's posts, and they occasionally made me give pause. When a new technology is adopted very quickly and without much field time, it doesn't hurt for someone to play the devil's advocate. Certainly there should be continued research and studies.

With that said, I do find it amusing that whenever an LED thread is started, it's basically "countdown to Blackdove anti-LED post in 3...2...1..." Blackdove, why is it that you never rally against CFL's, standard fluorescent, or other types of lighting? Many of these have the same (or worse) spectral issues as LED, and are currently in much MUCH HIGHER USAGE across the world. If I saw you discussing the downfalls of these other lighting techs, it would lend a bit more credibility to your posts. The fact that you rarely post on any other topic, and only choose to target one specific lighting tech causes people to believe that you have an agenda.
 
ludi
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:56 pm

Well, this is interesting: A closer look at the 'filament' LED (scroll down)

Long story short, each "filament" is actually a row of many low-power LED dies, then the whole thing is coated in a silicon diffuser. So I guess the heat dissipation could be pretty good compared to a small number of high-power dies.

Also, a video.
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:53 am

If they are connected in series that is going to really suck for reliability. If one fails the whole "filament" goes out. Series connection could make the driver circuits simpler (and cooler running) though, since the voltage of each series string would be closer to line voltage, and the current the driver needs to handle would be much lower.
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ludi
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:08 pm

I wonder if the string reliability is really any worse than any other similar fixture, though. A lot of these multi-element-array fixtures and high-power multi-die LED packages seem to use series-parallel connections and they not only seem to last as long as anything else, they just keep getting cheaper.
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:21 pm

Those retro LED bulbs look very interesting. Just the thing for setting the mood for a Frankenstein laboratory movie set. With that 2400K black body temperature, it should be yellow enough and use a fraction of the power to do it. I'm guessing those filaments would have the LEDs in parallel. Not an expert but dimmable should be possible. I have half a dozen of the narrow long candalabra based dimmable frosted lamps in one of those drooping flower looking lamps as a nightlight by the front door. I hooked it up to a 3-way dimmer. So, all I have to do is reach over when I open the door and hit any flower and instant light. A couple more touches and its full brightness. The glass flowers are streaked yellow orange glass so it really looks pretty cool so my aged mother does not object to the LEDs. Wish I could remember what they call that style of glasswork.

I'll post my own two cents about LED's. I bought the lab that I worked in for 12 years, last July. It had 19 fixtures of terrible 4" T-12 fluorescents. It was like working in a cave. I replaced the four tubes in 19 fixtures with 76 of these...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OL589ZI
To quote their blurb...

"...Save 50% on your electricity bill! Replace 36W fluorescent tubes by 18W LED. Reduce re-lamp frequency with a lifetime of 45,000+ rated hours (21 years with 3 hours/day 365 days)
Hyperikon® Award Winning LED T8 with a market leading 112 lumens per watt
DLC-approved and thus eligible for State and Nationwide rebate program
California Bestseller with a proven track record. Installed by hospitals, supermarkets, schools and hotels in San Diego and Los Angeles counties.
For your safety Hyperikon® products are UL-listed to avoid electrical shock and fire hazard..."

These are the 5000K version with single ended power and they really brightened up my lab.
P.S. I think I already posted some of this in the other LED thread. But, I am excited because I finished installing all the tubes just a couple weeks ago.
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ludi
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Re: Old School Retro Light bulbs

Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:11 am

Mr Bill wrote:
I'm guessing those filaments would have the LEDs in parallel.

A couple of the aforementioned links suggested a series connection. The junction voltage drop across a blue (or white-converted) LED is around 3V, so it's fairly cheap to string several dies in series to achieve a higher voltage rating for the string, then parallel several such strings if necessary. A small dropper resistor (if done cheaply) or a FET regulator (if done better) then provides a current-limiting power supply to the string.
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