TR Haiku thread

Hang out, sip some ice tea, and shoot the breeze with TR regulars.

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Postposted on Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:43 pm

Hawkwing74 wrote:Mostly true idchafee but not quite true. One of Ithkul's posts was actually correct. Basho wrote haiku that were not standard and he's considered one of the greatest who ever lived at it.


Then he didn't write haiku, at least not by any definition I've ever heard. He wrote his own style of poetry. Not haiku. Maybe he wrote Basho, a style in and of itself. But I looked up "haiku" on several dictionary sites and not one of them said:

1. A Japanese lyric verse form having three unrhymed lines of five, seven, and five syllables, traditionally invoking an aspect of nature or the seasons.
2. A poem written in this form.
3. Any poem written by Basho


But then again, I never heard of Basho and always cut class during any poetry unit in school, so what do I know about it?
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Postposted on Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:47 pm

mattsteg wrote:Not all poetry is haiku. A large portion of poetry is *much* more structured than most prose. Rules determine the type of poem. You can write something that is haiku-like but does not follow haiku rules. It's still poetry, but not strictly haiku.


I know, like the english sonnet , the italitian sonnet, heroic couplet, stenstia, etc. but most other those rules there are exceptions. The archetypes that of poetry largly are not followed by most people after the neo-classical period. All Modern forms of poetry have show this. Actually Look at shakespeare's sonnets 1-135, you see many consistant themes with the poems, But there are strenches in the language with they use astrophes to save the from, in the case ben johnson, or even look at john donnes' metaphysical poems. They have lots of strenches of the imagnation with reguard to form yet they are all considered sonnets.
In fact their are even classifications of poems in the open form. Open form is a poem with no structure at all.
have you seen it
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Postposted on Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:47 pm

From what i've read... Basho Matsuo's work is called hokku - normally the starting verse of an entire poem. It's what haiku evolved from.

In Japanese haiku, following the 5-7-5 rule is a must.

Conform to the rules
lest ye be shunned by gerbils.
Ithkul_prime is wrong.
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Postposted on Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:56 pm

Like I said, you people rely too much on crappy facts from dictionary definitions. Do you even know who writes the definition in the dictionaries.

I have actually taken serval courses on poetry, And have three different text book definitions of what a haiku is been define by the grand masters of haiku, Basho, Buson and Issa. Each Master had their own variation of the definiton. But maintan the three lines, not the 5-7-5 form.
have you seen it
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Postposted on Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:56 pm

Ithkul_prime wrote:But there are strenches in the language with they use astrophes to save the from, in the case ben johnson, or even look at john donnes' metaphysical poems. They have lots of strenches of the imagnation with reguard to form yet they are all considered sonnets.
They still adhere to the form, once you consider all their stretches. They don't throw it out completely. You're trying to defend an essentially indefensible position. Just be quiet and let this thread return to its origins.

A crackhead once said.
"Why can't we all get along."
Wise words, in this case.
...
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:02 am

zerohex wrote:From what i've read... Basho Matsuo's work is called hokku - normally the starting verse of an entire poem. It's what haiku evolved from.

In Japanese haiku, following the 5-7-5 rule is a must.

Conform to the rules
lest ye be shunned by gerbils.
Ithkul_prime is wrong.


Why conform to the rules
if they retrict'd you from honesty
You state what I learn at college is wrong.
have you seen it
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:05 am

Early in this thread
I tried out a variant
Of the 5-7-5

Someone got angry
And threatened to kick my ass
I was enlightened

Now all day today
I have spoken in haiku
I have no friends left
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:08 am

zerohex wrote:From what i've read... Basho Matsuo's work is called hokku - normally the starting verse of an entire poem. It's what haiku evolved from.
.

After looking it up in a haiku collection, I see that zerohex is correct. It's called hokku. But still in a haiku anthology eh...I think you guys aren't giving Ithkul enough credit. Sure he's wrong 999 times out of 1000...but he makes a reasonable point.

Shakespeare did write love sonnets not according to the rules and some haiku don't precisely follow the rules.

In fact, when Basho wrote, the term haiku was not used. Now, according to
"The Classic Tradition of Haiku" by Dover Thrift Edition, the terms are interchangeable.

Oh well, I guess it is pedantic to argue about it. Modern haiku certainly must be 17 syllables according to this source.
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:10 am

Look at the masters.
they did not conform to the to poetic rules of their time.
Why whould we, with reguards to poetry?
You are only limiting yourselves.
I care not for conformity.
I guess that is why people think I am a romantic thinker then,
With empathesis on my individuality.
have you seen it
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:12 am

Ithkul_prime wrote:
zerohex wrote:From what i've read... Basho Matsuo's work is called hokku - normally the starting verse of an entire poem. It's what haiku evolved from.

In Japanese haiku, following the 5-7-5 rule is a must.

Conform to the rules
lest ye be shunned by gerbils.
Ithkul_prime is wrong.


Why conform to the rules
if they retrict'd you from honesty
You state what I learn at college is wrong.


College classes lie
more often than you may know
The truth is harder.

The question lingers.
Why use apostrophe when
You follow no rules.

You have much to learn
about forum etiquette,
about life itself.

Perhaps it would help
If you provide substantial
reference linkage.
...
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:16 am

Hawkwing74 wrote:After looking it up in a haiku collection, I see that zerohex is correct. It's called hokku. But still in a haiku anthology eh...I think you guys aren't giving Ithkul enough credit. Sure he's wrong 999 times out of 1000...but he makes a reasonable point.

I would venture that
He misses the point of this.
Haiku only here.

If he feels constrained
Perhaps he should start anew.
Pan-poetry thread.
...
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:17 am

Like I said, you people rely too much on crappy facts from dictionary definitions. Do you even know who writes the definition in the dictionaries.


I know not who writes
dictionaries and such things
I am glad, not you.


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live to fight again.
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:34 am

But, Forum etiquette is so "langwig" (auf deustch).
It seems out of date.
to use linkage as fact,
when anyone with a hat
can make up a website
give any word as fact
Even if it is true,
even the reality lies too
even if I conceed as I might
Lots of teachers have lied to me
I lack all forms of trust
Yet I have seen bloodshed unlike most
Yet and understand perfectly how most spite
I actually been targeted by the KKK-like organization.
Most here Speaking on hand on their experinces
Unlike most, I try not to stand on my personal experinces
I hide fact from my own family
in order to protect them.
SO, do I still have to learn more about life
Yet the world continues to spite me,
with three deaths of family
all due cancer or alhemizers
Yet I have seen the issue asociate these.
right in my fornt door in my home.
I learn readily on how political correctness kills
I see a problem everywhere, in every set of eyes
Because each set, is set to conform,
to a dead dream we call America,
cops, teacher and politicans fail,
to save this john doe.
AM I just a number
Yet, you say that I use an Apostrophe,
when I follow no rules.
Yet you failed to see how I used it.
have you seen it
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:50 am

Ithkul_prime wrote:But, Forum etiquette is so "langwig" (auf deustch).
Deinen Deutsch sein schlecter als deinen Englisch. (forgive my butchery, it's been a long time)
Ithkul_prime wrote:It seems out of date.
to use linkage as fact,
when anyone with a hat
can make up a website
It's generally pretty damn easy to tell if a site is reputable or not.
Ithkul_prime wrote:give any word as fact
Even if it is true,
even the reality lies too
even if I conceed as I might
Your spelling could use less creativity as well.
Ithkul_prime wrote:Lots of teachers have lied to me
I lack all forms of trust
Yet I have seen bloodshed unlike most
Yet and understand perfectly how most spite
I actually been targeted by the KKK-like organization.
Was their prejudice against butcherers of the English language?
Ithkul_prime wrote:Most here Speaking on hand on their experinces
Unlike most, I try not to stand on my personal experinces
I hide fact from my own family
in order to protect them.
SO, do I still have to learn more about life
Yet the world continues to spite me,
with three deaths of family
all due cancer or alhemizers
Guess what. People die. People close to everyone die. We've all been through similar. It does suck, but it's hardly a unique hardship.
Ithkul_prime wrote:Yet I have seen the issue asociate these.
right in my fornt door in my home.
I learn readily on how political correctness kills
I see a problem everywhere, in every set of eyes
Because each set, is set to conform,
to a dead dream we call America,
cops, teacher and politicans fail,
to save this john doe.
AM I just a number
Yet, you say that I use an Apostrophe,
when I follow no rules.
Yet you failed to see how I used it.
Meaningless drivel. Take it to another thread.
...
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:56 am

may be the scar on my leg saids so...
SO, poeple die, you minimize that down to a nickel figuritively speaking.
guess what you pass with last part was drivel, because I could not think of anything more to say.
have you seen it
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:50 am

Ithkul_prime wrote:may be the scar on my leg saids so...
SO, poeple die, you minimize that down to a nickel figuritively speaking.
guess what you pass with last part was drivel, because I could not think of anything more to say.


If you can think of
nothing to add to a post,
add nothing at all
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:50 am

Hawkwing74 wrote:Mostly true idchafee but not quite true. One of Ithkul's posts was actually correct. Basho wrote haiku that were not standardand he's considered one of the greatest who ever lived at it.


'nuf said...

Ithkul_prime wrote:Like I said, you people rely too much on crappy facts from dictionary definitions. Do you even know who writes the definition in the dictionaries.

I have actually taken serval courses on poetry, And have three different text book definitions of what a haiku is been define by the grand masters of haiku, Basho, Buson and Issa. Each Master had their own variation of the definiton. But maintan the three lines, not the 5-7-5 form.


Okay, everyone, throw out your "crappy" dictionaries. How dare we hold Ithkul to such petty standards... :roll:

mattsteg wrote:A crackhead once said.
"Why can't we all get along."
Wise words, in this case.


How appropriate
Your use of the word "crackhead"
In reply to him. :wink:

Ithkul_prime wrote:Why conform to the rules
if they retrict'd you from honesty
You state what I learn at college is wrong.


It is obvious
You can't follow any rules
Short-bus waits for thee...

dalamar70 wrote:Early in this thread
I tried out a variant
Of the 5-7-5

Someone got angry
And threatened to kick my ass
I was enlightened

Now all day today
I have spoken in haiku
I have no friends left


That "someone" was me
But do not fear my good friend
Ithkul will be first. :P

Ithkul_prime wrote:Look at the masters.
they did not conform to the to poetic rules of their time.
Why whould we, with reguards to poetry?
You are only limiting yourselves.
I care not for conformity.
I guess that is why people think I am a romantic thinker then,
With empathesis on my individuality.


Well, you've certainly got your own dictionary/grammar/language...
Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant
like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:56 am

ZooTech wrote:It is obvious
You can't follow any rules
Short-bus waits for thee...


LOL

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I thought your boards were top notch
It came DOA

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Please honor my RMA
I bought two months back
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:02 am

ZooTech wrote:
Ithkul_prime wrote:Like I said, you people rely too much on crappy facts from dictionary definitions. Do you even know who writes the definition in the dictionaries.

I have actually taken serval courses on poetry, And have three different text book definitions of what a haiku is been define by the grand masters of haiku, Basho, Buson and Issa. Each Master had their own variation of the definiton. But maintan the three lines, not the 5-7-5 form.


Okay, everyone, throw out your "crappy" dictionaries. How dare we hold Ithkul to such petty standards... :roll:


Damn, beat me to it.


ZooTech wrote:It is obvious
You can't follow any rules
Short-bus waits for thee...


Now there's a poem I can support!

ZooTech wrote:
Ithkul_prime wrote:Look at the masters.
they did not conform to the to poetic rules of their time.
Why whould we, with reguards to poetry?
You are only limiting yourselves.
I care not for conformity.
I guess that is why people think I am a romantic thinker then,
With empathesis on my individuality.


Well, you've certainly got your own dictionary/grammar/language...


I'm not sure which is worse, that whatshisname is driving me to drink with his inane drivel, or that he's driving me to agree with ZooTech.
YOU CAN RUPTURE SOMEONE'S SPLEEN WITH A WATER BALLOON!!!!
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:30 am

idchafee wrote:
ZooTech wrote:
Ithkul_prime wrote:Look at the masters.
they did not conform to the to poetic rules of their time.
Why whould we, with reguards to poetry?
You are only limiting yourselves.
I care not for conformity.
I guess that is why people think I am a romantic thinker then,
With empathesis on my individuality.


Well, you've certainly got your own dictionary/grammar/language...


I'm not sure which is worse, that whatshisname is driving me to drink with his inane drivel, or that he's driving me to agree with ZooTech.


I feel your pain! :lol:
Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant
like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:53 am

Ithkul_prime wrote:I have actually taken serval courses on poetry And have three different text book definitions of what a haiku is been define by the grand masters of haiku, Basho, Buson and Issa.


Bully for you. Changes nothing, except lightens your wallet paying for classes that will have no relevance in the real world.

Ithkul_prime wrote:Each Master had their own variation of the definiton.


I did some googling this mornng (Google is a search engine. It allows one to find linkage that will support his position. Linkage is another word for "links to external web sites that contain relevant information written in an understandable language.") on those three great master guys. As I've already stated, poetry is not my bag, baby and haiku is even more so not my bag. I read this:

http://www.uoregon.edu/~kohl/basho/life.html

According to that, Basho and the boys wrote hokku, which is a form of haiku, but not strictly haiku. Plus the Japanese of all the poems on that page seem to be in 5-7-5 form to me (not knowing Japanese sentence structure is very unhelpful here). Remember, Basho was Japanese, and such Japanese was his primary language. So, if Basho were to write something in English and it read, "i is goin atthje college and I written of poetry." I'd understand that his command of English is going to be suspect.

Ithkul_prime wrote:But maintan the three lines, not the 5-7-5 form.


This guy:

http://www.bikereader.com/BikeReader/contributors/etc/haiku/BRhaiku5.html

seems to think that the 3 lines is the one thing you can scrap, since Japanese people write on one line. Lets see, who should the poetry-novice believe......hmmmmm.......
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:08 pm

ZooTech wrote:Let's all talk about
What's happening with the Gleek
Maybe he's Ithkul!!! :o


w00t!
Image
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:34 pm

Little fish in jar
Separate from angry fish
Graces my new desk
Semi-official TR gaming group at http://www.coldblackeyes.com/forums/
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:46 pm

emkubed wrote:Little fish in jar
Separate from angry fish
Graces my new desk


That is very cruel
Keeping angry fish away
From his next victim! :wink:

*************************

In my cubicle
Office Space is confining
"Where is my stapler?"

(name that movie! hint: duh!) :wink:
Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant
like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:58 pm

First snow, then silence.
This thousand dollar screen dies
so beautifully.
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:05 pm

ZooTech wrote:
In my cubicle
Office Space is confining
"Where is my stapler?"

(name that movie! hint: duh!) :wink:


Could it be...Office Space?
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:27 pm

OutlawRecon wrote:
ZooTech wrote:
In my cubicle
Office Space is confining
"Where is my stapler?"

(name that movie! hint: duh!) :wink:


Could it be...Office Space?


How smart you are, Sir!
You have guessed the obvious
Office Space it is! :P
Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant
like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:32 pm

But last year Milton
Didn't Receive piece of cake
He'll burn the place down
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:44 pm

FroBozz_Inc wrote:But last year Milton
Didn't Receive piece of cake
He'll burn the place down


Milton's moved his desk
Too many times already
Cocktails on the beach!!!
Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant
like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?
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Postposted on Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:55 pm

I am so busted
forgot the cover sheet on
TPS reports
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