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Have you thought about getting something used? I'd rather have a used nice gun than a brand new junker. Maybe get a good price on something at a gun show?

Apparently one can get tight patterns and good stopping power with Federal Flight Control shells, either #00 or #1 buck.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm

Don't write off the shotgun just yet. If nothing else it's even less likely to penetrate your wall and land in your neighbor's yard or house than .45 ACP.

edit: doesn't look like they're selling the #1 just yet. Here's their #00:
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/ ... spx?id=909

bthylafh wrote:

Don't write off the shotgun just yet. If nothing else it's even less likely to penetrate your wall and land in your neighbor's yard or house than .45 ACP.

Agreed. While .45ACP may reduce the threat to your pets it only extends the threat far beyond your little slice of heaven.

EDIT: To be brutally honest with yourself: What's worse, an own goal on a pet or collateral damage on a person? Harsh words, but they be the truth.

EDIT2: Too many quotes. My admonition is aimed at Vinceant, not bthylafh.

The Swamp wrote:

Have you thought about getting something used? I'd rather have a used nice gun than a brand new junker. Maybe get a good price on something at a gun show?

Honestly I may even have to settle for a used hipoint! haha

The problem with used guns though is that they are still 200+ at a minimum around here, if not 300+. The ones at 200 are usually trashed pretty bad, too, so without a good warranty they are not great purchases; good used guns are usually only about 10% cheaper than a new one here, from what I can tell. I'm definitely shopping around though, and haven't written off anything yet. Keep in mind, this is only a stopgap gun until I can save up more to buy a better one. My immediate budget is a lot tighter than if I could save for one. Again, I am having to return my current home defense gun to it's owner soon (it's my grandparents, haha), so saving for a couple more months, or even just a month is really not a great option (not to mention with kids and Christmas, winter is the worst time to attempt to save).

Now, I just remembered that I might be inheriting a Colt 25 auto in the next few weeks... but honestly I would really not like to use that for anything other than for range shooting. It's a family heirloom, was bought new by my grandfathers cousin in the 20s I believe, and yeah, I don't want to be forced to use it for defense of any kind. Not only that but my dad is up for inheriting it first, and he may keep it for himself. It's a cool gun though, but it needs some work (hasn't been properly maintained in probably 40 years); the grips are cracked, and it is in dire need of cleaning I think.

I've been trying to find better places for buying guns in OKC/Norman other than Bass Pro and H and H. Anyone in this area know of any good gun shops? Findind a good used steal of a deal thing would definitely make me forget I ever thought of buying a hipoint. lol

I think 200-300+ for handguns is pretty normal. And over here, used guns aren't particularly cheap either (which chaps my ass).

Vrock wrote:

JustAnEngineer wrote:

Darkmage wrote:

It was kind of weird counting out how much empty .223 brass I had in my reloading bin. That's not how I anticipated spending an evening.

Grab 20 cartridges and weigh them together. Write the number down. Now weigh your entire stash. Divide the second number by the first number and then multiply by 20 to figure out how many you have in total. Then you can spend the rest of the evening drinking beer.

That might work okay if all of your brass is the same headstamp, but if you have different manufacturers you won't get an accurate number.

There's also the minor issue of 900+ rounds being kept in a plastic kitty litter bucket which adds weight that I will have to subtract from the base weight before division... and it was my understanding that there would be no math.

In any case, 986 rounds later, I had my count. And then I picked up 400+ this weekend. I'm going to be reloading for a looong time.

Sorry for the bait & switch on the new rifle. I had a few things come up and then we left on vacation. I'll post pictures when we get back home.

Vinceant wrote:

I've been trying to find better places for buying guns in OKC/Norman other than Bass Pro and H and H. Anyone in this area know of any good gun shops? Findind a good used steal of a deal thing would definitely make me forget I ever thought of buying a hipoint. lol

My experience has been that others' desperation is your friend. Check pawn shops, local gun boards and Craig's List. Look for people who have recently lost their job, had a baby or are moving out of town for work. Other than that, make friends with your local gun enthusiasts. There usually is a safe queen that they've been looking to get rid of but haven't gotten around to putting it up for sale - mainly because they don't want to go through the hassle, such as it is.

I am of two minds about shotguns for home defense. They're excellent for the ammo flexibility. You can load one less-than-lethal round and follow it up with the 00 buck, for example. Penetration inside a dwelling is less than pistol rounds of any decent size. Two-handed pointing is more intuitive than a pistol, and it is child's play to mount a flashlight on a shotgun and leave it there. I am a huge fan of weaponlights. (Just a reminder - you definitely have to aim your shotgun. You will never get much of a spread in the ranges encountered in a typical home defense situation)

The downside to shotguns is that it is difficult to dial a phone/carry a child/flip a light switch while using one. Since I have no children, this is a moot point for me.

Darkmage wrote:

The downside to shotguns is that it is difficult to dial a phone/carry a child/flip a light switch while using one. Since I have no children, this is a moot point for me.

Sarah Connor(Linda Hamilton) will come by to teach you some shotgun wielding skills...and kick your ass.

Hey Darkmage,

New FN FS2000s $1372.

Near as I can tell, that's about $600 below normal costs for those things. I might say that's still a lot of money for that much ugly, but I've heard that sometimes the ugly ones perform better. Full ambi, right?

Looking for Knowledge wrote:

Hey Darkmage,

New FN FS2000s $1372.

Near as I can tell, that's about $600 below normal costs for those things. I might say that's still a lot of money for that much ugly, but I've heard that sometimes the ugly ones perform better. Full ambi, right?

I am not seeing that price when I follow the link. I'm seeing $1600+ (which is still really good) and I'm seeing "not in stock" which is not surprising considering how good that price is.

You're correct: It's full amibidextrous and yeah, typical price these days is $2200. According to a gun dealer I spoke with last week, FN raised the price to dealers on the FS2000 by $300 this spring. This raised the street price from $1900 to $2200. You can still find them for the $1600 or so range. I've never seen $1372.

BiffStroganoffsky wrote:

Sarah Connor(Linda Hamilton) will come by to teach you some shotgun wielding skills...and kick your ass.

Heh. The second she points that barrel at the sky to do her little shakey-shakey reload trick, she's getting a new nostril.

registered for a 2 day course with Appleseed to work on my marksmanship. My rifle skills need an upgrade. Also hoping to kind of network a bit and see if there's anyone that's a bit cheaper that'd do ongoing coaching till I get the hang of it a bit more. IME with ohter hobbies, a 2 day intensive is great but it isn't enough in and of itself, even if you keep practicing--more reinforcing is needed.

paulWTAMU wrote:

registered for a 2 day course with Appleseed to work on my marksmanship. My rifle skills need an upgrade. Also hoping to kind of network a bit and see if there's anyone that's a bit cheaper that'd do ongoing coaching till I get the hang of it a bit more. IME with ohter hobbies, a 2 day intensive is great but it isn't enough in and of itself, even if you keep practicing--more reinforcing is needed.

Oooh, fun! Let us know how it goes. Take pictures if you can and make the sales pitch to us. I could use a good rifle course...

I think it's pretty basic, and they're frankly kind of weird (at least that's the vibe I got) so they may not allow photographs. But some of my wife's family told me to give them a try, but just to expect oddball politics.

You know you're gonna burn through like 1,000 rounds in two days, right?

Vrock wrote:

You know you're gonna burn through like 1,000 rounds in two days, right?

Does the course come with a water jacket for the barrel?

Captain Ned wrote:

Vrock wrote:

You know you're gonna burn through like 1,000 rounds in two days, right?

Does the course come with a water jacket for the barrel?

No doubt. The Appleseeds wanted to use our club's range for a two day course, and we were going to let them until we found out how much lead they put downrange. Our club has a few people who live near it that already complain about the noise as is.

Vrock wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

Vrock wrote:

You know you're gonna burn through like 1,000 rounds in two days, right?

Does the course come with a water jacket for the barrel?

No doubt. The Appleseeds wanted to use our club's range for a two day course, and we were going to let them until we found out how much lead they put downrange. Our club has a few people who live near it that already complain about the noise as is.

My "deer rifle" (a/k/a closet queen Remington 760 pump rifle in .270 Winchester) was built in 1953. I 'd be surprised if she's had 500 rounds through her. 1000 in 2 days is criminal since you'll need a new barrel after the class.

Maybe they source the same rounds as are used in movies. Those guys never seem to run out of ammo or burn up a barrel. Of course, most of them couldn't hit a billboard at ten paces unless someone detonated the squibs.

Darkmage wrote:

Looking for Knowledge wrote:

Hey Darkmage,

New FN FS2000s $1372.

Near as I can tell, that's about $600 below normal costs for those things. I might say that's still a lot of money for that much ugly, but I've heard that sometimes the ugly ones perform better. Full ambi, right?

I am not seeing that price when I follow the link. I'm seeing $1600+ (which is still really good) and I'm seeing "not in stock" which is not surprising considering how good that price is.

Dang it! It was there! I swear it! I half thought it was a trick, being that Cheaper then dirt is NEVER cheap.

They said 500-700 over both days. I'm taking 2 rifles (the .22 and the 30-30), planning to use the .22 for most of it. I am a little concerned about the amount of ammo TBH, but it's over 8 hours each day...and most of it's going to be a .22 so my wallet and shoulder can take it.

at any rate I've actually *got* 1100 rounds or so of .22 (federal and remington, I destroyed the winchester white box crap) and about 240 of 30-30. I'm just hoping it helps, and hopefully it'll introduce me ot other local shooters, some of whom might know other people that do classes and stuff. There's tons of folks advertising CCW courses but that isn't really what I need as much as just people to help me with technique. I've never had formal teaching, just grandpa going over some stuff back when I was a pre-teen. I'm tired of not being good at 100+ yards damnit.

paulWTAMU wrote:

They said 500-700 over both days. I'm taking 2 rifles (the .22 and the 30-30), planning to use the .22 for most of it. I am a little concerned about the amount of ammo TBH, but it's over 8 hours each day...and most of it's going to be a .22 so my wallet and shoulder can take it.

It really depends on the purpose of the course. The up-close-and-personal defense courses I've taken average about 1,000 rounds for two days. That's 9mm, .40 or .45 caliber pistols. The one CQB carbine class I took was about 800 rounds. The one long range rifle course was about 500.

Have you contacted Appleseed to make sure that your weapons are appropriate? In my experience, there were definite restrictions on what weapons were allowed for each course. .30-30 for a carbine class (medium range or short range) should be fine. But I've never taken any sort of defensive class that would allow .22 LR. There may be an advanced marksmanship class that would go for that, but nothing defensive. I had to verify with my instructors that my rifle could reach 800 yards for the long range class, and I had to verify that my carbine was short enough & magazine fed for the CQB class. The pistol classes had a minimum caliber of .380.

Again, this is only my experience. Appleseed may be different.

Home again, home again. Jiggy-jig.

Now that I'm back from vacation, let's see what the new resident in the safe looks like...
Behold! My assault tuna fish!



That little triangle in the front is where the empty brass ejects.

I bought this used off of a guy who works at a gun shop. I haven't even shot it yet. Getting it home was a challenge...

We agreed to meet up halfway between our homes and I was going to give him half, he would give me a bill of sale and once the check cleared we'd meet again to finish the transaction. We both kind of outsmarted each other... I showed up on the motorcycle because I figured "eh, I'm just delivering a check & picking up paper". He showed up with the rifle figuring "he's not going to want to make this trip twice." So I gave him a check for the full price, he took me at my word and I rode home on the motorcycle with the rifle strapped across my chest. It was a... tense ride home!

Saturday is all 25 yards or less; they actually recommend a .22. Thank god, cause that much rifle ammo would suck to buy The logic they offered is that the basic fundamentals are pretty similar and they're very applicable across ranges.

Darkmage wrote:

It was a... tense ride home!

In NoVa??? I'm shocked that you aren't the leading story on the national "news".

Captain Ned wrote:

Darkmage wrote:

It was a... tense ride home!

In NoVa??? I'm shocked that you aren't the leading story on the national "news".

It's completely legal. At best he might have made the local news.

I like sitting and standing, HATE prone. Shifting in prone is a paint in the butt (and elbows) and I can't get my supporting arm to feel right.

That said, I wound up shooting mostly 2 MOA in sitting which isn't bad I guess. I'm looking forward to tomorrow with some work on the 30-30. Also, have realized I shouldn't use iron sites. I'm sticking with scopes. I'm borrowing a spare right now for the .22

I think it's helped measurably--I went from 4 MOA on the first time to 2 MOA. So that's better. Did about 200 rounds today, planning on 200 more with the .22 and about 100 with the 30-30 tomorrow.

Now for water, a big frigging dinner. and sleep.

Day 2 didn't go so bad, but didn't go so well either. Partly that's because I'm coming down with something (I've already called in for tomorrow at work and am going to a doctor). It's hard to keep my groups tight when I'm coughing and sneezing non stop Did get my 30-30 sighted in properly, and manged to get 5 rounds ont arget at a 100 yards with the instructors M1 using iron sights (given my history with iron sights, not bad). With a scoped .22 I'm at 3-4 MOA at 100 yards, which isn't great but isn't too awful either (particularly with the wind, and the coughing/sneezing). I'm still not that good, particularly at compensating for wind or being substantially off the zero distance of my sight though. If I'm at roughly the zeroed range I'm fine but figuring out how to adjust is still something I'm struggling with. Oddly, my groups are bigger that way too. I thought they'd be the same of group, just offset but it adds like a solid MOA?

I did get invited to go shooting handguns which I look forward to Gotta get rid of this RI before I spend time firing indoors though.


In the end I went through 20 rounds of 30-30, 500 of .22 and 8 30-06 rounds. I went from pretty bad to so/so which is good improvement. I hope to manage to practice more at 100 hards with my 30-30.

I also learned I should just scope my damn .22. So much better being able to see the sights well.

edit: I am now eligible to buy a Garand through the CMP I don't have 525 or 625 bucks though

on another note; does anyone know of any other programs that do classes in multiple locations that focus on rifle skills? I want to do more of it. Primarily just to get better enough I feel like I can safely and humanely hunt

My new toy/build.

SOTA .300 blackout upper, essential arms lower, Silencerco .45 Osprey suppressor.
I know, it's pretty mall-ninja, but I did get rid of a tactical 5.56 in the process, so I broke even. Except, 220 gr. subsonic FTW!

Damn, that is a serious piece of hardware. Me likey!

paulWTAMU wrote:

edit: I am now eligible to buy a Garand through the CMP I don't have 525 or 625 bucks though

Stay away from the field grade ones, they're pretty worn.

The best buy IMO is the CMP Special. Yeah, it's a $1,000, but it's as close to a "new" Garand as you're gonna get. Word is that the CMP takes field grade rifles that don't sell and reworks them. For the money, you can't beat it as a shooter. Lots of them have WWII and Korea receivers, so there's still some history there as well. I almost bought one of these, but wound up buying a post war correct grade rifle for $100 more a few years back. I kinda wish I'd gotten the CMP special, because I could shoot it without fear of reducing the value. Save your pennies; eventually they will run out of these rifles.