Gun prOn!

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Postposted on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:05 pm

One hand holding, one supporting. I tend to shake a bit in my hands (no idea why) so my accuracy gets worse one handed. I'm thinking about a dot sight or something, but I'm not sure at all about the viability of that in a CCW. Also, I understand that there are some inherent limitations in a 2" barrel revolver.

On the upside, after doing that, I'm considering a .44 for fun :D The kick isn't bad at all with 158 grain JHPs so I'm thinking maybe a .44 wouldnt' kick as horribly as I'd feared. I'll try it out at the range later.
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Postposted on Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:16 pm

Every time I try to two-hand or Weaver, I shoot low & right. Don't know why but I know I do, so I stick to a one-hand stance with my back arm in a position much like a fencer (the I'm a little teapot stance). Works for me up to .45 ACP. Never tried a .50 Desert Eagle, but not likely to make the same mistake.
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Postposted on Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:48 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:Ohhh FLL sucks :( I'll ask the local mom and pop shop/range.

I just put 200 rounds through my new revolver. My shooting sucked. Advice? I was loading moderate .357 loads for most of it, but kick wasn't too bad, except for the one time to do the rapid-fire trick. Grouping low adn right, sights not adjustable.


Smooth trigger pull. Don't jerk.

Try shooting a few dry rounds through the gun (i.e. cock it without a round in the gun) and see if you jerk the gun when you pull the trigger.

Take some classes at the local range.
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Postposted on Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:50 pm

Captain Ned wrote:Every time I try to two-hand or Weaver, I shoot low & right. Don't know why but I know I do, so I stick to a one-hand stance with my back arm in a position much like a fencer (the I'm a little teapot stance). Works for me up to .45 ACP. Never tried a .50 Desert Eagle, but not likely to make the same mistake.


You do realize that your stance choice has a lot to do with the geometry of your body. No one stance is right for everyone. It depends on the length of your arms, the size of your hands, the size of the grip on the gun, etc. You may even need a different stance for different guns if they fit your hands very differently.

One thing to keep in mind with one-handed shooting, to improve your grip, is to take advantage of "sympathetic response". Gripping one hand tightly will help the other hand grip tighter. So while shooting one handed, make a tight ball out of the other hand. I like to hold my balled fist to the center of my chest, but if you like it behind your back, that works too, though it's farther away if you need to fight off an attacker or reload in a hurry. Anyway, try that and see if the clenched fist helps you keep a firmer grip with the hand holding the gun.
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Postposted on Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:59 pm

I actually did some moslty dry cycles through after today at the range; some jerking it downward to try to counteract the recoil...I need to *not* do that. What irks me is that the muzzle flip isn't really too bad on this-it's there but it isn't just horrible.

Sadly, there's no shooting classes offered I can find :( For a Texas town there's not the gun ranges/classes available I'd expect. The old city range hasn't reopened AFAIK, after being shut down due to backstop failure ( :o ) It's basically one skeet range, one indoor pistol range (which I use) and then some fancy country club private range...but I'm not a country club member, nor could I afford to be one. several K per year in membership is more than my broke butt can afford.

Actually had a question about trigger pull--this thing's trigger is HEAVY. I mean grotesque, sumo-wrestler heavy. How hard is it to adjust that sort of thing? There's no external mechanism for it so I'm guessing I may need a gunsmith? I mean, the trigger pull feels like 10+ pounds.

I'll definitely try the stance adjustments and review the sights a bit.
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:48 am

paulWTAMU wrote:I just put 200 rounds through my new revolver. My shooting sucked. Advice? I was loading moderate .357 loads for most of it, but kick wasn't too bad, except for the one time to do the rapid-fire trick. Grouping low adn right, sights not adjustable.
Hmm... in theory:

1) Low = recoil anticipation. You're fighting the gun before the gun is fighting you. Try to realize that no matter how much it kicks, it will not go flying up into the ceiling, nor come back and hit you in the forehead. I find that helps.

2) Right = Too much finger on the trigger (assuming you're right handed). You may be putting the trigger in the fold of your first joint. This is too far. The pad of your finger should be directly against the face of the trigger.

Alas, it's really really hard to cure #1 except with trigger time. As you get used to the gun, you'll stop fighting it. The goal is to know when the gun will fire as you pull the trigger, but you won't care that the kick is coming.

HTH
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:17 am

paulWTAMU wrote:Actually had a question about trigger pull--this thing's trigger is HEAVY. I mean grotesque, sumo-wrestler heavy. How hard is it to adjust that sort of thing? There's no external mechanism for it so I'm guessing I may need a gunsmith? I mean, the trigger pull feels like 10+ pounds.


I didn't look back to see what you have, but really you should get the thing tuned and get the lawyer trigger down to something reasonable.... 2lbs or so max. Probably gonna run from $50-250 depending on what all you have done and how much stone/hone/fitting goes on.

Can you bag/machine rest the puppy to know exactly what to expect from it in the accuracy dept? Different loads will probably move impact points somewhat, but the bag/machine rest would show you a more accurate frame of reference that won't be impacted by your hold, flinch or trigger let off, or in your case with a 10lb trigger...stomp off.

2 inch 5 shot groups from a 4-6 inch barrel factory pistol at 25 yards is fine when bench rested, and holding less than 4 inches when holding the thing I would consider pretty good, and I doubt I know anyone who could do that with a 10lb trigger.
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:00 am

I didn't look back to see what you have, but really you should get the thing tuned and get the lawyer trigger down to something reasonable.... 2lbs or so max.


I'm no fan of heavy triggers, but for a double action revolver for concealed carry I would recommend against getting a trigger tuned down that low (if it's even possible on that gun). Yes, the factory trigger pull is probably excessively heavy and could use some work, but I'd want a 2lb trigger in a dedicated target gun or a carry gun that has an external safety. In the heat of the moment of a self defense scenario the last thing that you want is to accidentally jerk the trigger before you're completely on target. Yes, training should prevent this kind of thing from happening, but **** happens when adrenaline takes over.

I actually did some moslty dry cycles through after today at the range; some jerking it downward to try to counteract the recoil...I need to *not* do that. What irks me is that the muzzle flip isn't really too bad on this-it's there but it isn't just horrible.


As recommended previously, spend some quality time drying firing and getting to know the point at which the trigger breaks. If you can get things nailed down to the point where the gun doesn't jerk during dry firing, try moving on to a lower powered load like .38 special. It will work just fine in your gun and will allow you to train with less of a chance of developing a flinch (plus it's a hell of a lot cheaper to practice with than .357 mag). Once you have .38 special down without flinching, feel free to move back up to .357 mag if that's the round you are going to be carrying. In all honesty though, the difference in effectiveness between .38 special and .357 magnum out of a 2" barrel isn't really earth shattering. If you find that you shoot significantly better with .38 special, then you won't be missing much by using that instead .357 magnum. Shot placement > a bigger boom. As always, use high quality self defense rounds when you carry.
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:20 am

paulWTAMU wrote:I actually did some moslty dry cycles through after today at the range; some jerking it downward to try to counteract the recoil...I need to *not* do that. What irks me is that the muzzle flip isn't really too bad on this-it's there but it isn't just horrible.
If you can, have a buddy load your revolver for you with two random empty chambers (not concurrent chambers). That way you won't know whether or not the bang is coming and it should help you adjust.

cass wrote:I didn't look back to see what you have, but really you should get the thing tuned and get the lawyer trigger down to something reasonable.... 2lbs or so max.
Eek! 2lbs is, IMHO, way too light. Especially on a self-defense piece. Factory Glock triggers are set at 5 lbs and they are pretty easy on the finger.

I have a .308 rifle with a 1.5 lbs trigger. If feels like if you breathe on it too heavy, it goes off.
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:30 am

I'll look at the trigger fixing some more, and probably shoot for a 6 pound pull. I'll also use some .38 rounds next time. And I was using the exact placement Darkmage said not too as well--trigger in the crook of the finger.

I don't have any sandbags or rest, but the gun store/range might.

And what is reasonable for a 2" long barrel in terms of accuracy?

I'm sick today so probably no range time, but this weekend I plan to go down and shoot a few hundred more rounds.
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:11 pm

And what is reasonable for a 2" long barrel in terms of accuracy?


Well I can't give you numbers really, but a 2" revolver barrel is going to be just as mechanically accurate at self defense ranges as something with a longer barrel. The trick is to get accustomed the shorter sight radius as it can make accurate shooting a little tricker.
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:17 pm

Image

Image

This is my baby. Ruger Blackhawk .41 Magnum. She's a brute of a handgun, I think it would make a good tank gun replacement :p
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:51 pm

moshpit wrote:Image

Image

This is my baby. Ruger Blackhawk .41 Magnum. She's a brute of a handgun, I think it would make a good tank gun replacement :p


Nice gun, Mosh! A friend of mine has a .41 but I don't know if it is a Ruger. Are there other makes of .41? It's a beast of a gun. His is blue, not stainless. He uses it now for home defense, although he also has a .40 for that purpose.
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:56 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:IAnd what is reasonable for a 2" long barrel in terms of accuracy?


357 accuracy test

I didn't read it close enough to glean the rest system, but those numbers are shot at 25yds for the 6 inch barrel, and 7 yards for the 2 inch barrel and look about right to me. I was unaware you were talking about a pocket carry double action.... is it Double only, or Double/single? 4 or 5 inches for a 2 inch barrel gun at 25 yds is plenty respectable if using sand bags.. I would want to go to a full machine rest if wanting to do better. I have shot several small .25 cal/.22/.45/ pistols at targets, and they all vary... the good ones will do 4 to 5 inches, and the bad ones randomly connect with a 5 gallon bucket.

darkmage wrote:
cass wrote:I didn't look back to see what you have, but really you should get the thing tuned and get the lawyer trigger down to something reasonable.... 2lbs or so max.

Eek! 2lbs is, IMHO, way too light. Especially on a self-defense piece. Factory Glock triggers are set at 5 lbs and they are pretty easy on the finger.

I have a .308 rifle with a 1.5 lbs trigger. If feels like if you breathe on it too heavy, it goes off.


I was thinking it was a slightly larger revolver and was referring to SA not DA. My personal carry piece is unmodified p89 MKII, and it feels OK to me in SA, and in DA you can manage it fair enough. With its trigger though, you can miss a 2 foot target easy at 25 yds by mismanaging the trigger just the slightest bit, and if you try to manhandle it, it will machinegun on you. Pistols take an inordinate amount of practice to get proficient with them. I had probably went through 2 or 3 thousand rounds over a two week period with my ruger before I started feeling comfortable with it.

I am used to triggers in the .5 oz to 1.5 oz range, and my hunting rifles have 8 oz, so 2 lbs feels like I am hitting it with a sledge hammer. Most of the pistols I am familiar with are smithed, tuned, and custom so 5 lbs is out, but I wouldn't object to 5 lbs in a carry piece for rough reliable duty.
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:17 pm

The Swamp wrote:Nice gun, Mosh! A friend of mine has a .41 but I don't know if it is a Ruger. Are there other makes of .41? It's a beast of a gun. His is blue, not stainless. He uses it now for home defense, although he also has a .40 for that purpose.


There were other makes of it, but apparently most companies have discontinued making the .41 Magnum. Ammo is still plentiful for it though so I'm not worried about having to press my own for it yet. It's a little on the beefy side for me to be comfortable using it as a home defense weapon, but we make use of what we have :D
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Postposted on Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:33 pm

Woot. Went backthe range today, tried some of the suggestions. very mixed results on the one handed stance; at first it was fine but an hour into it my hand was tired. I shifted stances though, and did find one that was a bit better. I also paid more attention to my grip and that paid off. Also, I tested out my aiming ability by brining along my old Walther P-1 and did much better than I expected with it--although it kicks harder than the revolver!

Oh, I also did lots of partial fills, leaving one or two chambers empty to work on the flinch. big improvement. My best group was 3 shots in the first two rings outside of the X at about 10 yards (not fired fast) which is acceptable for me. The best group with the Walther was way better though ;)

Anyway, taking the qualifying test for my CCW this saturday. Should do OK.
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Postposted on Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:56 pm

eckslax wrote:
And what is reasonable for a 2" long barrel in terms of accuracy?


Well I can't give you numbers really, but a 2" revolver barrel is going to be just as mechanically accurate at self defense ranges as something with a longer barrel. The trick is to get accustomed the shorter sight radius as it can make accurate shooting a little tricker.


The two primary challenges to accuracy accuracy with a short barrel are (as eckslax notes) [1] the shorter radius between the front and rear sights makes the sights less precise (i.e. more degree in movement for the same site offset vs. a longer site radius on a longer barrel). This means that you need to be all that much more precise and careful about getting the front site perfectly placed in the rear site picture.

And [2] the amount of kick resulting from a smaller lighter barrel makes regaining the site for a follow-up shot after the first more difficult. It's much easier to pop off two or three quick accurate shots when the barrel doesn't drift as much between shots. But when you have a powerful kick to recover from, it makes this much more challenging.

This is why short guns don't make good target shooting competition guns. But of course, they make great carry guns. It's a trade-off.

These reasons are also why I went from a 3" to 4" 1911 carry pistol. The 4" is still "short" compared to the full-sized (5") barrel, but the extra inch makes a big difference in regaining the target quickly after the first shot.
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Postposted on Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:38 pm

Doing very much better with the short barrel now, but still not wonderful. Oh well, it's not really a match gun :)
The only complaint I have is that the frame on it makes it very hard to carry it concealed--it works ok in my duster's high inside pocket (big heavy coats FTW I guess), but even an inside-the band holster is pretty obvious if I sit or bend. I suppose it's what you'd class as a mid-frame gun. I have one business coat that works OK too for more formal occasions but I'm at a total loss as to what to do for summer here.
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:01 pm

Image

That's my baby, a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle. I'm really rather pleased with it, though I would've preferred a longer barrel, 20" or 22" would've been nice. I had a thread a ways back of my AR-15, and I was promptly instructed to post pictures of it here. I'll have to put up some other pictures of my Ruger 10/22 later on.
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:09 pm

Oh god my hand hurts. I just tried some light, high velocity rounds for my .357 yesterday. To put this in perspective, I don't mind normal 158 grain rounds from Federal or American Eagle...but these were something sorta odd from Remington. 125 grains I think, and uber muzzle velocity. I thought I'd try them and see how they shot...oh god my hand is purple today. I did 150 of them and then promptly got a box for my brother (he's coming up next friday, bringing his .357 he uses for varmints and targets). I've got a nice purple patch on my palm today from these :evil: I think I also reintroduced myself to that damn flinch.

On the upside, Dan's bringing me a little WW2 era Spanish made .32 auto for fun, and a .380 he got for dirt cheap :)

EDIT: I want an AR variant, but in 6.8mm or 7.62mm. I can't afford one :( Darkmage, think you can get your hands on surplus? :lol:

EDIT again--my next firearm is going to be a .22 revolver; .357 ammo is getting way too expensive, as I'm blowing through about 40-60 dollars per shooting session between the Rossi and the Walter. So I figure by spending some money on a .22 to plink with I'll save money...or something? If it works on my wife that's all that matters. The Ruger single six is probably what I'll get, since they're cheap here. Also, since I love .22 mag handguns, loads of fun even if they're pointless for self defense and hard to go hunting with.
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:58 pm

All of you guys how have a gun close to the computer , so if some goes wrong are blowing monitor or some peripherals :lol:
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:19 pm

Well, none of mine are near the PC: shotgun under the bed, revolver in the bedside stand, the rest safely put away.
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:50 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:EDIT again--my next firearm is going to be a .22 revolver; .357 ammo is getting way too expensive, as I'm blowing through about 40-60 dollars per shooting session between the Rossi and the Walter. So I figure by spending some money on a .22 to plink with I'll save money...or something? If it works on my wife that's all that matters.

Ever think of taking up reloading?
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:03 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
paulWTAMU wrote:EDIT again--my next firearm is going to be a .22 revolver; .357 ammo is getting way too expensive, as I'm blowing through about 40-60 dollars per shooting session between the Rossi and the Walter. So I figure by spending some money on a .22 to plink with I'll save money...or something? If it works on my wife that's all that matters.

Ever think of taking up reloading?
That's sort of cheaper in the long run, but the up front costs are daunting: you need a good compound press and workbench, sizing and crimping dies, scales, a brass polisher and polishing media, primers, powders, and lead. Then once you got that you need the diligence to keep good records on how many times you've loaded a given lot, and if you shoot semi-autos, the patience to hunt for and pick up brass. Then there's the considerable time required to actually reload the ammo. I really think that you have to enjoy reloading and tinkering to make it worthwhile. My dad was hardcore into the stuff, had a couple of Lee and Lyman presses, and he used to cast his own bullets and everything. I never got into it. I enjoy shooting...not cleaning and reloading. :)
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:26 pm

Vrock wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:Ever think of taking up reloading?
That's sort of cheaper in the long run, but the up front costs are daunting: you need a good compound press and workbench, sizing and crimping dies, scales, a brass polisher and polishing media, primers, powders, and lead. Then once you got that you need the diligence to keep good records on how many times you've loaded a given lot, and if you shoot semi-autos, the patience to hunt for and pick up brass. Then there's the considerable time required to actually reload the ammo. I really think that you have to enjoy reloading and tinkering to make it worthwhile. My dad was hardcore into the stuff, had a couple of Lee and Lyman presses, and he used to cast his own bullets and everything. I never got into it. I enjoy shooting...not cleaning and reloading. :)

I'm working on two builds right now (pictures coming soon). A 6.8 SPC and a .458 SOCOM. Ammo for both is outrageously expensive! The last thing I reloaded was 12ga back in college. I don't even want to price-out what the equipment would cost me, though in the end I know I could potentially save a few dollars. :-?

IMO, the key to beginning reloading is starting with the single press system. One press = one thing done to one round at a time. The multiple function presses are nice, and faster, but my recommendation for someone starting out would be to start with the single cartridge turn table style press. It limits the things that could go wrong with each pull of the lever.

That said....I doubt I'll be getting back into reloading any time soon. Even though the .458 SOCOM runs between $28 - $48 a box, it only encourages me to not shoot as much at this time. :wink:
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:50 pm

Looking for Knowledge wrote:IMO, the key to beginning reloading is starting with the single press system. One press = one thing done to one round at a time. The multiple function presses are nice, and faster, but my recommendation for someone starting out would be to start with the single cartridge turn table style press. It limits the things that could go wrong with each pull of the lever.
Yeah, that's good advice. Especially since it's all too easy to get a double charge of powder.
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:50 pm

Looking for Knowledge wrote:IMO, the key to beginning reloading is starting with the single press system. One press = one thing done to one round at a time. The multiple function presses are nice, and faster, but my recommendation for someone starting out would be to start with the single cartridge turn table style press. It limits the things that could go wrong with each pull of the lever.

Wherea my reloading experience is even more basic than that, using my dad's now-ancient Lyman and RCBS single-die presses (both purchased in the late 1950s). One learns the tedium of batch processes with such a rig. I remember his powder thrower to be very temperamental, requiring frequent manual weighing to ensure it hadn't screwed up yet again. Even with these limitations a box of 50 pistol shells or 2x20 boxes of rifle shells was but a hour or so of work. The resizing/decapping die was great for building arm muscles.
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Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:53 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Looking for Knowledge wrote:IMO, the key to beginning reloading is starting with the single press system. One press = one thing done to one round at a time. The multiple function presses are nice, and faster, but my recommendation for someone starting out would be to start with the single cartridge turn table style press. It limits the things that could go wrong with each pull of the lever.

Wherea my reloading experience is even more basic than that, using my dad's now-ancient Lyman and RCBS single-die presses (both purchased in the late 1950s). One learns the tedium of batch processes with such a rig. I remember his powder thrower to be very temperamental, requiring frequent manual weighing to ensure it hadn't screwed up yet again. Even with these limitations a box of 50 pistol shells or 2x20 boxes of rifle shells was but a hour or so of work. The resizing/decapping die was great for building arm muscles.

Heh. Yeah, I can still here the hinged metal "tapper" bouncing against the side of the powder dispenser on Dad's old single stage Lyman.
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Re:

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:20 pm

cy_a253 wrote:Gauss Pistol. 8)


Looks interesting.. but does it work??
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NeXus^
Gerbil XP
 
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Location: Australia

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:25 pm

How big are these presses? Keep in mind my current residence is tiny, and I've got a house purchase coming up soon, so no major expenses are really allowable :wink: Ah well...I don't mind reloading in theory, just not sure about the upfront cost on it.
Ugly people have sex all the time. We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion humans if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
paulWTAMU
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