Gun prOn!

Hang out, sip some ice tea, and shoot the breeze with TR regulars.

Moderators: emkubed, Captain Ned

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:27 pm

Glorious wrote:
tanker27 wrote:I know one is heated differently when I did my research.


I'm willing to bet they are chemically different as well, not just metallurgically (in the sense of heating, treating, and shaping). In other words, they're different under a spectrograph as well, not just in their physical properties because of their microstructure.

I don't know a lot about specialty tool steel, but I do work in the steel industry.

After a quick search, it appears that 9310 contains some molybdenum while C-158 doesn't, which makes 9310 a little harder.
Personally, I think that the heat treatment is more important than their composition since they both work well.
I like Windows 8.
Seriously.
chµck
Gerbil First Class
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:29 pm

Have a datasheet:

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=101&E=100

This stuff's been around for a while, as the datasheet dates back to 1981.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20214
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:54 pm

I know very little about steel, but from what I've read on the 100% always right internet ;), 9310 is about 3% softer/more malleable than Carpenter 158.

I feel like you'd be unlikely to notice the difference between the two steels in practical application as far as AR-15 bolts are concerned, especially given that none of us are Tier One Operators conducting extended combat operations in harsh environments against overwhelming odds. :lol:

But, as Carpenter 158 is the 'tried-and-true' steel for bolts, I'd choose that if I had the option. It works.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:56 pm

I didn't know you'd completed your build, tanker. Good on you! Always curious: what brands did you wind up using, and did you go rifle length, carbine, or mid? Give us details and pics!
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:21 pm

Vrock wrote:I know very little about steel, but from what I've read on the 100% always right internet ;), 9310 is about 3% softer/more malleable than Carpenter 158.

I feel like you'd be unlikely to notice the difference between the two steels in practical application as far as AR-15 bolts are concerned, especially given that none of us are Tier One Operators conducting extended combat operations in harsh environments against overwhelming odds. :lol:

But, as Carpenter 158 is the 'tried-and-true' steel for bolts, I'd choose that if I had the option. It works.

C-158 is also in the TDP set by Colt, if that's important to anyone.
I like Windows 8.
Seriously.
chµck
Gerbil First Class
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:14 pm

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:27 pm

Vrock wrote:I didn't know you'd completed your build, tanker. Good on you! Always curious: what brands did you wind up using, and did you go rifle length, carbine, or mid? Give us details and pics!


Yup sure did and will do shortly, been busy at work with projects being due.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(''')(''')
Wounded Warrior Project
Watch out for evil Terra-Tron; He Does not like you!
tanker27
Darth Gerbil
 
Posts: 7188
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:32 pm

Vrock wrote:I feel like you'd be unlikely to notice the difference between the two steels in practical application as far as AR-15 bolts are concerned,


I'm sure you wouldn't. They aren't exactly the same but they are very similar. I was just disputing whoever said they were the same, because they aren't. That said, I'd still go with the tried & true like you. :P

What I was getting at was this: AISI 9310 almost certainly isn't really cheaper to work with in the sense of the difficulty of machining, just that it's more available. In other words, if a machinist wants to make one of these bolts he can go online and buy 9310 rod stock in whatever footage/diameter is appropriate. If he wants to make, say, ten, he can literally buy almost exactly that amount of steel, easily, with just one phone call. Hell, they might even list the prices direct on a website. It's that common because AISI grades like that are WIDELY available.

On the other hand, proprietary internal grades (like, I presume, this carpenter-158)are not very available at all. That same machinist would have to call a whole bunch of suppliers to see if they have any available and in the appropriate dimensions, and they very probably don't.

Which means he is going to have to go up the chain where they quote you dollar per pound, but the order minimum is in tons. :o

That's what I was getting at. :wink:

I don't know know a whole of lot about tool steel like I said, but I understand a bit about the industry. I suspect this situation is exactly why there are so many 9310 bolts available.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7844
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:08 pm

Makes sense, thanks. I think with the 'explosion' of demand for AR type rifles that it would follow that manufacturers would want to go for a more available steel that they can get from multiple sources.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:50 pm

Speaking of AR-15s, here's a variation of one of mine. I say variation because I switch out furniture on a whim.

Image

It's pretty plain jane. Just a Del-Ton build with Magpul MOE furniture and vertical foregrip, along with a Bushnell TRS-25 red dot sight. The sight was a Christmas present. Took me a while to get used to it as I was "raised" on irons. I like it quite a bit. The both eyes open piece, and the focusing on your target instead of your sight, is a big plus. I am looking for a decent muzzle brake for it eventually (considering Spike's Dynacomp short), so if anyone has suggestions I'm all ears.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:06 pm

Hey, I have that exact same rug (or its cheaper clone) in the master throne room.

As for furniture, I am solidly in the properly-checked and properly-oiled/varnished real wood brigade.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20214
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:03 pm

Heh, I got the rug at Target.

There are some nice target and varmint ARs with wood furniture if that's your thing. I normally agree with you on wood stocks, but for ARs I make an exception.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:33 pm

Vrock wrote:Heh, I got the rug at Target.

There's one across the lake in Plattsburgh and the Boss travels there at least monthly with her posse, so that's likely from whence it came.

Vrock wrote:There are some nice target and varmint ARs with wood furniture if that's your thing. I normally agree with you on wood stocks, but for ARs I make an exception.

And that's the crux to me. I have no need for .223/5.56x45. I've fired a few but it's never captured my interest. To be honest, I could see a .223 bolt-action in proper wood, but planking wood on an AR action would be wrong from both sides of the debate (IMO).

I started long arms with a sweet bolt-action Remington in .22LR (not sure of the model # [5xx IIRC] but so need to grab it to teach the 16YO gel as it's still in Dad's arsenal) and then moved to a M1903 Springfield. Once I'd mastered the Springfield Dad let me try the Rem 760 (my current rifle). While a smaller cartridge (.270 vs .30-06) the 3+ pounds on the Springfield compared to the 760 made a whole lot of difference. Many other rifles came into the collection but the key was that they were all with wood. I may be missing something WRT to the AR world, but I'm happy with where I am.

Somewhere in his parts collection Dad has a mint Mauser receiver & bolt that he always wanted to build a furniture-quality rifle around. He probably won't get to it, but I will someday. Assuming it is a proper Mauser receiver/action (I haven't laid eyes on it for at least a decade, but the removal rate from his cellar is zero to negative), it will of course be chambered for 7.92x57.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20214
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:14 am

It's not about "need", it's about fun. :)

Spec'ing out your own AR-15 and putting it together, making it exactly the way you want it, is tons of fun. As is the actual shooting part. I know we've talked before about the availability additional calibers other than .223.

Now's a really good time to buy, too.

Also, interesting trivia: Vermont is the only state in the US that doesn't have a Target store.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:54 am

Dude at range was trying to sell me some bull pup .223 rifle when I was there, somehow it was not even a restricted weapon.. I may pick up some sort of rifle to hone my skills on, although the range is limited to 50m. Still may be fun though, and rifle ammo is cheaper too lol
i7-4790K-32Gb DDR3-1866-Zotac GTX 780ti -Samsung EVO 250GB- Samsung EVO 1TB
elmopuddy
Gerbil Elite
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:00 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:49 am

Vrock wrote:Also, interesting trivia: Vermont is the only state in the US that doesn't have a Target store.

Yup, which is why the Boss heads over to Plattsburgh on a monthly basis (In good weather the 20 minute ferry ride is actually quite nice & scenic. Not so much in a howling winter gale). The worst part is the return and the forced viewing of the recent hole in the credit card.

Surprisingly enough, Dad's never added a .223 to his arsenal. He's got most everything else military from WWI forward (NFA arms exempted; he's too libertarian to go through that crap even though he could afford it) but he stopped at the civilian M14. I certainly spent many a sunny summer day as a small child running around through the backyards of our dead-end street with the Mattel plastic M16 (Damn, if I had that today I'd be all over eBay) but now that I can buy one and have no issues (I love VT gun "laws") I find myself looking more toward K98s and Garands. I guess that at some fundamental level I cannot adequately explain or verbalize, "gun" and "wood" are irrevocably linked.

Oh, and a trap-door Springfield will rearrange your shoulder, your spinal column, and anything else that's attached to the body fool enough to pull the trigger, and that's with proper black powder handloads (which adds a real pucker factor to the bullet seating step). Neither Dad nor I are willing to try Pyrodex in it. Hell, the first time we fired it it was lashed to a large truck tire and fired from a very long string just in case.

EDIT: Just to prove it could be done, some idjit has made a revolver chambered for .45-70. At this point "why" has long been thrown down to the wayside. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Research_BFR
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20214
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:25 am

K98s and Garands have both gotten stupid expensive. I paid $1100 from the CMP for a correct grade, post Korean War example back in 2010. Just walked into the shop at Camp Perry and picked it off the rack, where it sat next to about two dozen others. They're all gone now. The only way you can get one from the CMP is via auction. Sure am glad I got mine when I did. Wishing I'd picked up two while I was there.

K98s are more available and cheaper, if you don't mind Russian captured/refurbed rifles. They almost always have force matched, electropenciled parts. I have one, and it shoots well even though the barrel is a bit pitted. Figure between $375-$525 for one. Anybody charging over that for a Russian Capture K98 is trying to cheat you. Stay away from Mitchell's Mausers for the K98s, unless you want a refinished rifle. They've ruined more historic K98s than basement gunsmith. "Bring back" K98s run from the high $1k-low $2k range, unfortunately.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:26 am

elmopuddy wrote:Dude at range was trying to sell me some bull pup .223 rifle when I was there, somehow it was not even a restricted weapon.. I may pick up some sort of rifle to hone my skills on, although the range is limited to 50m. Still may be fun though, and rifle ammo is cheaper too lol
Don't you guys have a magazine restriction of three rounds or something like that for semi-auto rifles? They pin the magazines, IIRC.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:02 am

Vrock wrote:
elmopuddy wrote:Dude at range was trying to sell me some bull pup .223 rifle when I was there, somehow it was not even a restricted weapon.. I may pick up some sort of rifle to hone my skills on, although the range is limited to 50m. Still may be fun though, and rifle ammo is cheaper too lol
Don't you guys have a magazine restriction of three rounds or something like that for semi-auto rifles? They pin the magazines, IIRC.


10 rounds, unless its .22
i7-4790K-32Gb DDR3-1866-Zotac GTX 780ti -Samsung EVO 250GB- Samsung EVO 1TB
elmopuddy
Gerbil Elite
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:00 pm
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:14 am

Vrock wrote:Stay away from Mitchell's Mausers for the K98s, unless you want a refinished rifle. They've ruined more historic K98s than basement gunsmith..

I'm assuming that's the group that has the big ad "Last real K98s available" in the back pages of American Rifleman? The tone of the ad made it pretty clear to me that it was bushwa.

There's a healthy private sale industry up here and that's the only way I'd buy anything (it'll be a cold day down below before my name goes on a 4473). I know guys with good K98s looking to sell and I'm not scared of the prices for the right rifle. After all, this is not a purchase for resale, it's a purchase for life and the descendents (damn, I really need to grab the .22 and get her trained as on my Dad's scale I'm about 10 years behind the curve).

When Dad gets home from Arizona I think I need to remind him of the Mauser project and get it done. He's 73 and I'm 50, so we're pushing the clock here. Next project after that will be converting his left-handed thumb-hole stocked .22 match rifle (with RH bolt) to a RH thumb-hole stock. The LH bolt Rem 700 will have to stay as is. Thin resale market there.

EDIT: There's 2 Mattel Marauders on eBay right now, for $225 and $275. Both show orange muzzle tips, which was not part of the original toy.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20214
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:26 am

Captain Ned wrote: Just to prove it could be done, some idjit has made a revolver chambered for .45-70. At this point "why" has long been thrown down to the wayside. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Research_BFR
My uncle has had his Thompson Contender outfitted in 45/70 for more than a decade, but it's got twice as much barrel on it as that revolver has.
i7-4770K, H70, Gryphon Z87, 16 GiB, R9-290, SSD, 2 HD, Blu-ray, SB ZX, TJ08-E, SS-660XP², 3007WFP+2001FP, RK-9000BR, MX518
JustAnEngineer
Gerbil God
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 15406
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:30 am

Captain Ned wrote:I'm assuming that's the group that has the big ad "Last real K98s available" in the back pages of American Rifleman? The tone of the ad made it pretty clear to me that it was bushwa.
Yeah. They buy from former Soviet bloc nations that have stored the captured rifles since the 40s. Then they 'factory overhaul' them, meaning they completely reblue them, sand down and varnish the stocks, and in some cases re-stamp serial numbers on parts. For some reason they leave the bolt in the white, when K98s had blued bolts. Supposedly they shoot fine, but authentic they are not. This is the same company that advertised Yugoslavian M48s as "k98 mausers", and stated they had "teak wood stocks". Because we all know about the vast, lush teak forests in the Balkans, right? :roll:

Captain Ned wrote:There's a healthy private sale industry up here and that's the only way I'd buy anything (it'll be a cold day down below before my name goes on a 4473).
The FFL only keeps the form for 20 years, Ned...what are you afraid of? ;)

Captain Ned wrote:When Dad gets home from Arizona I think I need to remind him of the Mauser project and get it done. He's 73 and I'm 50, so we're pushing the clock here.
Do you know what model of Mauser that bolt and action are from? Just curious.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:46 am

Vrock - finally got around to reading your writeup of the L-35 and the M/40. Seriously, that's some good writing, and I like how you intersperse some historical facts here and there.
Aphasia
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
 
Posts: 3426
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Solna/Sweden

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:48 am

Vrock wrote:Do you know what model of Mauser that bolt and action are from? Just curious.

No, I don't. All I know is that it was his dream project, so I'm thinking 7.92x57 at a minimum (his deer rifle is a LH bolt Rem 700 in 7mm Rem Mag). With Mom gone now it's probably time for me to poke him into this build, as well as safely dispose of all the now long-degraded reloading powders down in the cellar (including some FF and FFFF).

On another note, what's the practical life of undisturbed .22LR 500-rd brick packs? There's a bunch of them in Dad's cellar pushing 40, if not 50 years (the old Remington yellow boxes are art). I'd love to use them in training the gel. Obvious corrosion of the bullets will get them tossed, but if visually OK are they OK?
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20214
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:18 pm

If they've been in a damp, New England cellar for forty years in cardboard boxes, I'd bet against them. Even if the powder is good, the priming compound probably isn't. You risk squibs, which is great way to ruin your rifle and possibly your day. I've shot milsurp centerfire ammo that was stored in airtight tins for 60 years, and it worked (about 98% of it, anyway)...but rimfire stuff that was unprotected from humidity is very dicey.

As for the Mauser action and bolt, I was curious as to type and model. I'm assuming it's a large ring, 98 style action, but dependent on what year it was made and model rifle it was made for, metallurgy may be better or worse. Frankly very few folks bother with building a sporter/hunting rifle from old Mauser actions these days: you can get a new, modern rifle with a scope for far less than it costs to sporterize an existing action. But as a fun project, it's still worthwhile.
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:30 pm

Aphasia wrote:Vrock - finally got around to reading your writeup of the L-35 and the M/40. Seriously, that's some good writing, and I like how you intersperse some historical facts here and there.
Thanks! I really enjoy my M/40. I need to go shoot it again...
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:21 pm

Just poked my head into this thread again (as I do once in a blue moon). I'd like to learn how to shoot, but I've got too many hobbies already so it hasn't been really high on the list. One of my former co-workers (also a friend, avid homebrewer, and partner on the IT team for the local homebrew competition) is a licensed instructor, so I think I've got that angle covered. If I was to decide to pursue this, what's the best (where "economical" figures into the definition of "best") way to start?
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37672
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:44 pm

just brew it! wrote:If I was to decide to pursue this, what's the best (where "economical" figures into the definition of "best") way to start?

At the moment, I would recommend a used 9mm pistol. For the foreseeable future, 9mm is easier to find than .22LR (which would be my normal recommendation). Used 9mm pistols can be had for $300 or under and still be drop-dead reliable. Just about any local range will be a pistol range, so you won't limit your options like you might if you were to purchase a rifle.
If there is one thing a remote-controlled, silent and unseeable surveillance/killing machine needs, it’s more whimsy. -- Marcus
Darkmage
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7371
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:44 am
Location: Hell, Virginia

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:45 pm

Hi JBI. You don't mention if you are interested in learning to shoot a rifle or a handgun. Most shooters start with a rifle, but you don't have to. The most economical way to get into shooting has historically been a .22 caliber rifle of some kind (Ruger, Marlin, Savage). You can get into one of those for under $300. The only problem is ammo availability for .22 right now isn't that great.

If you're interested in something larger than a .22, there are multiple handguns in the $400 range chambered for 9mm that will serve. I am inclined to recommend a 9mm pistol over a .22 just for utility reasons. But, tell us a little bit more about what you think you might want to do with the gun, and no doubt many folks can give recommendations. :)
Molon labe.
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20564
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:53 pm

I got started at a gun range that had a new shooter event. You payed 15 or 20 bucks and got to shoot all of the seven different hand guns they had that day. I've been told that most learn with a 22lr rifle, but I my wife had never used a firearm before either and she had no problem that day.

Find a gun range near you and give them a call. They should be be really nice to you since you could be a new customer. They will most likely recommend a full sized handgun chambered 9mm Luger, it is the second cheapest ammunition and unlike 22lr they should have it in stock at the gun range. Pick "full sized" hand gun for starters, they are easier to shoot. You will need some eye and ear protection. I like to double up on the ear protection at indoor ranges the echo is terrible.

Also try typing "Hickok45" in the Youtube search window, then clicking on his basics series of videos.
Dagwood
Gerbil XP
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:10 am

Re: Gun prOn!

Postposted on Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:49 pm

Sounds like the common recommendation is for a 9mm pistol. Will keep that in mind if I decide to pursue this.

As far as motivation goes, no particular reason. Just a "this seems like something I should know how to do" basic skills sort of thing that I have neglected for far too long.
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37672
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

PreviousNext

Return to The Back Porch

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests