Have own phone = paying too much

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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:26 am

Flying Fox wrote:As for unlocking, it is almost always 10-50 bucks and you can let someone send you an unlock code. Telus just made it "official". People have been unlocking and debranding their carrier-bound phones for years I don't know why this is news to you. As long as you are willing to void the warranty and be a "rebel" to the carriers' fear tactic, you do have a choice, to a degree.

Now in terms of plan pricing, that's the part you really should be bitching about. It seems that people in US/Canada often do not realize the true cost of a device. My last phone was unlocked and I paid in full. I consciously made the decision to do that in order to gain the flexibility. In the end, you get what you pay for (except option #2 really isn't so IMO that one is stupid).


I am saying, "telus made it official". that's all i'm saying. I'm aware that unlocking has been around for years.

As far as plan pricing, that's what I'm talking about!!!! I realize the true cost of the device, and am not interested in paying Y + Z for it, when i don't need to. I wish wind was in my area, (they're not really in ANY area, yet) as they have a 45$ a month unlimited everything plan.

Nobody has of yet replied to my breakdown, and somebody did mention the anger, and I'm not really sure what started it. I'm not mad, and with the exception of Glorious, I have a fair bit of respect for you all of you. I was over the line with tanker, and for that I apologize.

As for Ludi's comment on the full retard, i fail to see what "full retard" has to do with this discussion. Nobody has, of yet, justified why i'm paying for the insurance, and cost of a phone i'm not using/getting. i've heard "it's your choice, you don't have to do anything", and IT'S ECONOMICS/INVEST/I LOVE MEN from glorious, but nobody has actually touched on my question. that might be how it goes.

As for the flame warriors, yeah I love em. thank you for posting the naked one.

Productive dialogue? on here?! never happen. too many people are filled with nerd rage, and run off screaming about crap that's got nothing to do with the issue at hand. I appreciate your sentiment, however, and this thread was started with the intent of having a serious discussion.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:31 am

blitzy wrote:It seems crappy to not be able to chop and change as you please, but it makes sense from the carriers point of view. You either get

a) locked to a carrier, with the sweetener of a subsidized phone
or
b) freedom to sign to whoever you like, but pay the full cost of the phone

I realize I'm just stating the obvious here, but why would the carrier offer you a good deal to use their service if you can happily jump ship at any time for a better deal? Maybe if someone thought they could use it as a viable business model they would try that angle, but most of the telecom markets are little more than two horse races. Even if someone wanted to start a carrier that played the value for money service angle, they can't compete because they dont have the network coverage, or have to 'rent' the infrastructure from the other big players.

If you want to look at it from a 'it could be worse' point of view, here in NZ we get overcharged for the phones, pay ridiculously high rates for calling and data (unlimited data doesn't even exist), we don't get all the newest handsets right away or if at all and we probably won't see 4G till thats well established. Some of the standard deals here would have you pay 20c per text message, that's lol worthy. (must be around 15c USD). Comparitively some of the deals in US and Canada ain't that bad.


we pay 20c to send a message, and 20c to receive. that's about 21c USD. sending and receiving a message, you just paid 40c!

we are actually the most expensive nation on the planet for cell phone coverage, and our telecoms are some of the most profitable in the world. we do get new phones pretty quickly however.

http://wirelessnorth.ca/2010/08/27/its- ... the-world/
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:42 am

The pricing schemes suck, but you're not forced to buy a cell phone, or at least one that's so expensive. If the luxury of owning an expensive cell phone is too expensive for you, get the cheapest plan available. I do that. I have a cheap flip phone and the simplest service. I can send text messages and make calls, and my bill is literally half of what it'd be if I used a smartphone. The way you get around restrictive contracts for expensive phones and services is to not use expensive phones and services. If you want to have the luxury then you have to pay what the companies are charging.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:38 am

FireGryphon wrote:The pricing schemes suck, but you're not forced to buy a cell phone, or at least one that's so expensive. If the luxury of owning an expensive cell phone is too expensive for you, get the cheapest plan available. I do that. I have a cheap flip phone and the simplest service. I can send text messages and make calls, and my bill is literally half of what it'd be if I used a smartphone. The way you get around restrictive contracts for expensive phones and services is to not use expensive phones and services. If you want to have the luxury then you have to pay what the companies are charging.


Whilst I appreciate your thoughts, fire, that still doesn't have anything to do with my question. My question is applicable regardless of what phone I have.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:11 am

cynan wrote:I did not mean to contradict any specific statement of yours. The point was only to inform about the sate of the wireless market in Canada (or at least Ontario, with which I am intimately aware). To sum up, there is really only two companies, Bell and Rogers, which, due to whatever market pressures, public and federal apathy, etc, has resulted in a "duopoly" who are more apt to scratch each others back to keep status quo (because things are currently so darn cushy for them), then actually attempt to compete with one another in any meaningful way.


Flying Fox, who lives in Canada as well, doesn't seem to agree with your characterization.

cynan wrote:But sure, lets compare the competition of wireless networks in Ontario with, say, Germany? In Germany there are 4 major wireless networks, each with their own infrastructure, each with market shares of > 10%. These are 1) T-mobile (German owned) 2) Vodaphone (UK owned) 3) E-plus (Netherlands owned) 4) 02 (Spanish owned). These are major wireless players who compete in multiple European countries and have no intimate ties with telecommunications of any one country, as their livelihood depends on being competitive and viable in multiple markets. These companies have much more incentive to be competitive with one another than Rogers and Bell.


First off, it was my understanding that Canada didn't want to open itself up to foreign phone companies. So you have a difference there, immediately.

Second off, the difference isn't meaningful. Look, here, from a Canadian source.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-cellphonecosts/

Compare Germany with Canada. They have "more" incentive to be competitive, but yet the costs are VERY similiar.

cynan wrote:While I'm not familiar with wireless markets in the USA, in most regions there appears to be at least 3 major wireless providers with their own networks (AT&T, Verizon, T-mobile) and maybe Sprint?. The same degree of collusion between these companies, as there is between Rogers and Bell, just doesn't exist (due to the fact that there is, in a very real way, more consumer options).


The CBC says otherwise.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-cellphonecosts/

Compare the US with Canada. Canada is "cheaper."

I am strongly considering it. For one, I happen to actually live in an area with Wind/Mobilicity coverage and their plans are less than 1/2 the cost (literally, no exaggeration) of Rogers/Bell or their subsidiaries (if you don't need to use your phone outside these regions). And I am getting desperate to escape Roger's and Bell's plan to maintain the highest wireless costs in the World... You may not think that the wireless plan prices offered by AT&T or Verizon, etc, appear to be too different from those offered by Bell and Rogers. On the surface they may even look similar. But there are HUGE differences. For one, in the US, most cell phone plans include nation-wide calling. In Canada, if this is available, it is almost always at an added cost, and to a restricted number of incoming/outgoing calls, etc. For Data, you simply cannot get an unlimited data account on Rogers or Bell (the largest plans being around 5 or 6 GB/month) - and this is because they make most of their money on data by charging ridiculous overage charges (like 5 cents/kb)....


I meant invest in the company. Not buy their product.

cynan wrote:Fair enough, but I wasn't trying to support SSK's OP with that statement (and never once declared I was on SSK's team). I was simply trying to illustrate how valuable these multi-year contracts are to Rogers/Bell and the ridiculous lengths they are legally allowed to go to enforce them. The $400 or whatever it is it costs them for the latest smart phone you purchase from them is a pittance compared to the tens of dollars per month (and often hundreds) extra that they are permitted to extort from their customers with data/voice plans on a monthly basis over 3 years.


What I'm trying to tell that you can't just assume that the grass is greener on the other side. I have EVIDENCE that it is not.

cynan wrote:There is a reason Canada pays the highest wireless rates in the world. It is also no coincidence that Canadians also pay some of the highest rates for high speed internet. The same duopoly is behind this as well (at least in Ontario).


This statement is DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED by the CBC.

I have sources, you have assertions.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:26 am

SSK wrote:As for Ludi's comment on the full retard, i fail to see what "full retard" has to do with this discussion. Nobody has, of yet, justified why i'm paying for the insurance, and cost of a phone i'm not using/getting. i've heard "it's your choice, you don't have to do anything", and IT'S ECONOMICS/INVEST/I LOVE MEN from glorious, but nobody has actually touched on my question. that might be how it goes.


They can't justify it because you're not actually doing that.

SSK wrote:we are actually the most expensive nation on the planet for cell phone coverage, and our telecoms are some of the most profitable in the world. we do get new phones pretty quickly however.


That is not what your source says. Your source says that Canada has the highest average revenue per user. Gee, why might that be problematic?

Well, just to begin, it is in USD, and thus given the variations between our currencies you'd have see that figure jump up 20 % just over the last few years alone without anyone in the telecom industry doing anything at all.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:32 am

http://www.techspot.com/news/40700-us-a ... plans.html
the amounts COVER THE AVERAGE COST OF A COMPLETE CELL PHONE PACKAGE. READING TOUGH FOR YOU?

here: "In terms of voice minutes, the top three payouts are the UK ($.17 a minute), the US ($.18 a minute) and Canada ($.31 a minute), and this has to be doubled in both the US and Canada as customers pay for incoming and outgoing calls alike. By comparison, India and Hong Kong pay $.01 a minute."

that means that we pay almost double what you pay, per minute. we also have to pay extra for long distance. Sorry, i'm not sure how to break it down any smaller. I realize some of those words are rather big.

You are, however, correct in that Canadian law requires a telecom company to have canadian ownership. It's the main reason Skype in numbers are not available in canada either. It has certainly impacted our national competitiveness, but I think, there should be an increase in the number of public telecoms. Sasktel remains the only crown telecommunications company in the country, and with prices like these, you can see why private hands pushed so hard to get all their competitors sold

http://sasktel.com/search/controller/_/ ... paign=Home

and before you go off whining about "omg not profitable, gah!! public utilities = devil!! inefficient, blah nerd rage, blah

SaskTel profit hits $129M in 2009

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2 ... -1004.html

and next your going to say "gah!! they're forcing people to use it! nobody likes their crap!! they must be coercing people!!!

http://www.sasktel.com/search/controlle ... csat-award

one of the top in the WORLD in customer satisfaction.


and you still haven't explained why I'm paying for Y + Z
Last edited by sweatshopking on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:41 am

sweatshopking wrote:I don't understand what's confusing about this.

You are correct. The problem is not with you, but how utterly brainwashed the corporate drones people trolling you are.
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
There really is no excuse for your phone company's corrupt business practices, but strangely enough people are attempting to justify it. There is no justification here, and you are obviously being taken advantage of. However, it doesn't seem that you have any option other than to put up with it at the moment. I can't offer you any advice, but you do have my sympathies.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:33 am

SSK wrote:the amounts COVER THE AVERAGE COST OF A COMPLETE CELL PHONE PACKAGE. READING TOUGH FOR YOU?


Which is an unlike comparison. Look at the last table, that 17 USD in the UK only gets you 100 minutes. Yes, you pay 38.70 USD in Canada, but you get 250 minutes. This is so misleading that it's hard to not take it as intentional.

Here's the thing: You openly acknowledge that there ARE much cheaper unlimited plans.

You simply complain that they aren't available everywhere.

Has it really not ocurred to you that those two things might be related?

Ontario has a population density that is closer to North Dakota's than Idaho's.

I'm not talking about the empty territories up north, or Saskatewan here, just Ontario.

In your world, this has no cost, there is no concept of purchasing power parity, and we can ignore countries that are the closest to you demographically and geographically (the US), in favor of comparing yourself with countries that are completely unlike you demographically and geographically (say, the UK).

SSK wrote:here: "In terms of voice minutes, the top three payouts are the UK ($.17 a minute), the US ($.18 a minute) and Canada ($.31 a minute), and this has to be doubled in both the US and Canada as customers pay for incoming and outgoing calls alike. By comparison, India and Hong Kong pay $.01 a minute."


I guess we'll just completely ignore Japan then, which is at .37 a minute. :roll:

SSK wrote:that means that we pay almost double what you pay, per minute. we also have to pay extra for long distance. Sorry, i'm not sure how to break it down any smaller. I realize some of those words are rather big.


Maybe, but the article only lists the plans they picked, not all the options available. Thus we're relying on their honesty and goodwill in assuming those really are the cheapest deals available.

SSK wrote:and you still haven't explained why I'm paying for Y + Z


You haven't demonstrated how you actually are.

And I thought you foe-listed me. :roll:

l33t-g4m3r wrote:You are correct. The problem is not with you, but how utterly brainwashed the corporate drones people trolling you are.


Well at least, this time, you aren't accusing us of being bought off. Refreshing.

And, of course, everyone BUT you is just another mindless "sheeple." Yup, you're only person on the planet who has enough insight to think all those independent thoughts you just read about on the internet. :roll:

l33t-g4m3r wrote:And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Yes, I'm "delighting in wickedness" by trying to apply economics. That's the devil's work. Best burn me at the stake immediately!

l33t-g4m3r wrote:There really is no excuse for your phone company's corrupt business practices, but strangely enough people are attempting to justify it.


So just what would be the non-"corrupt" price point, then?

l33t-g4m3r wrote:There is no justification here, and you are obviously being taken advantage of.


He's paying like maybe 10-20 dollars more than a completely hypothetical competitor, and that's being taken advantage of? You guys are acting like they are making insane profits from this, but let's actually compare Roger's net income with AT&T's, for instance.

AT&T has 124 billion in revenue and 19.8 billion in net income. Profit margin? 16%

Rogers has 11.4 CAD in revenue, and 1.26 in net income. Profit margin? 11%

It's amazing what you can learn when you LOOK THINGS UP.

l33t-g4m3r wrote:However, it doesn't seem that you have any option other than to put up with it at the moment.


You do realize that insisting that every new innovation must immediately become akin to a human right doesn't exactly encourage innovations? If people don't make decent profits on new technologies, we won't get them.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:54 am

SSK wrote:You are, however, correct in that Canadian law requires a telecom company to have canadian ownership. It's the main reason Skype in numbers are not available in canada either. It has certainly impacted our national competitiveness, but I think, there should be an increase in the number of public telecoms.


So I offer you a possible way to increase competitiveness, but you basically decide that you don't want that. OK.

Well, you know, here in the real world, things like protectionism have a cost. I'm not saying that Canada shouldn't exclude foreign ownership, that's your business. But you're going to pay a price for it.

SSK wrote:Sasktel remains the only crown telecommunications company in the country, and with prices like these, you can see why private hands pushed so hard to get all their competitors sold


Has it occurred to you that the reason Sasktel remains is because it's for SASKatchewan TELecomunications. As in, service for a province that's so gigantic and empty that there's a less than two people per square kilometer. The US state of Wyoming is nearly THREE times as dense.

As in, no private company wants it?

SSK wrote:and before you go off whining about "omg not profitable, gah!! public utilities = devil!! inefficient, blah nerd rage, blah


I don't do that. I just point out that you're not likely to be any happier. Actually, you're probably going to be much less happy.

SSK wrote:SaskTel profit hits $129M in 2009


Which the provincial government takes virtually all of. Which is fair, because they get government funding. It's a bunch of empty accounting.

SSK wrote:and next your going to say "gah!! they're forcing people to use it! nobody likes their crap!! they must be coercing people!!!


Completely the opposite, I'm SURE the people of Saskatchewan are happy they are able to get government subsidized wireless service because they know there is no way they could afford to pay for it for real.

Even then, you do realize that they aren't exactly cutting edge when it comes to technology. They just got 3G last summer.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:35 am

most of canada, outside of toronto, vancouver, etc. STILL doesn't have 3g, so that point is irrelevant.

Bell, telus, and rogers all compete in sask. they just suck balls.

much less happy? how do you figure? they have one of the highest satisfaction rates. I don't believe for a second that government run utilities are or were a bad thing.

Government takes all of? yes, it's a public utility.

how is it empty accounting, it when all the cheques are cashed, they have 129 million dollars on top of everything else.

no way they could afford it for real? what does that even mean? sask has some of the lowest taxes anywhere, and a good cell phone company. who gives a rats ass "how they pay for it for real". that means nothing.

As for the foe thing, it still shows me the last post when i write a reply. Sucks, I know.

What are you talking about I never demonstrated how I am. X + Y + Z. what exactly is wrong with my equation?

And how come your CBC information is spot on, but contrary information is "relying on honesty"?

Here's the thing. I'm a moron. you're the best troll i've ever seen, and my hat goes off to you sir.

And finally, nobody ever argued this was akin to a human right. that's got nothing to do with anything. Quit grasping at straws, and admit you're wrong.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:08 am

SSK wrote:most of canada, outside of toronto, vancouver, etc. STILL doesn't have 3g, so that point is irrelevant.


Most of Canada is tundra.

SSK wrote:Bell, telus, and rogers all compete in sask. they just suck balls.


Because they're likely not trying to cover 90%+ of the province, just the small parts of it that their customers from other provinces might conceivably go.

SSK wrote:much less happy? how do you figure? they have one of the highest satisfaction rates.


Why wouldn't they be happy? The alternative for most of their customers is NO mobile service.

They win some cisco award and you fall overself saying they're best in the universe. It'd incredible.

SSK wrote:Government takes all of? yes, it's a public utility.


Then the "profit" is meaningless.

SSK wrote:how is it empty accounting, it when all the cheques are cashed, they have 129 million dollars on top of everything else.


Given that we're really talking about the government, the company is an artificial accounting construction. They do this kind of nonsense PRECISELY BECAUSE of the confusion you now suffer from.

The company's "profit" all goes to the government, which has spent money for the company that isn't actually on the company's books. Thus this is all an illusion enabled by the artifacts of accounting for improper abstractions.

SSK wrote:no way they could afford it for real? what does that even mean? sask has some of the lowest taxes anywhere, and a good cell phone company. who gives a rats ass "how they pay for it for real". that means nothing.


If they're funding it based on long-term government bonds, yes, that is not real. They're relying on future tax revenues that are not actually going to be there. This is not unique to Canada, it's a problem worldwide.

Accounting can make this all look fine and dandy, but the utter disaster that is worldwide finance is rapidly getting to point where it'll be obvious even to the stupid that it is not.

SSK wrote:What are you talking about I never demonstrated how I am. X + Y + Z. what exactly is wrong with my equation?


How apropos. What I was just saying about improper and inaccurate abstractions?

SSK wrote:And how come your CBC information is spot on, but contrary information is "relying on honest"?


I detailed with specificity why it was less than honest and practically incompetant. They inexplicably left out Japan in the verbal summary, but included it's higher rates in their tables. They also failed to mention the fact that Canada's "complete cellphone package" offered more minutes and other features.

SSK wrote:And finally, nobody ever argued this was akin to a human right. that's got nothing to do with anything. Quit grasping at straws, and admit you're wrong.


So you're entitled to a lower price because ...

Right. :roll:
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:16 am

Glorious wrote:
cynan wrote:I did not mean to contradict any specific statement of yours. The point was only to inform about the sate of the wireless market in Canada (or at least Ontario, with which I am intimately aware). To sum up, there is really only two companies, Bell and Rogers, which, due to whatever market pressures, public and federal apathy, etc, has resulted in a "duopoly" who are more apt to scratch each others back to keep status quo (because things are currently so darn cushy for them), then actually attempt to compete with one another in any meaningful way.


Flying Fox, who lives in Canada as well, doesn't seem to agree with your characterization.

Actually Glorious, I am on the same side as cynan about the "non-competitiveness" of the Canadian market. Just that in Ontario it is not a 2-horse race but a 3-horse race. Their behaviour is suspect all the time. Instead of competition driving prices down, they actually tend to go up and it looks like collusion. Of course the "government", through the ineffective CRTC (what do you expect when that commission is full of ex-telecom execs?), can't prove anything and won't do anything. :evil: Now that is worth bitching about. Openmedia.ca is trying to rally Canadians against the CRTC on the issue of ISP and UBB, it is the most successful campaign against them so far (they got the industry minister to tell CRTC to shove Bell's UBB plans up their behind, but that fight is not over). This is always the situation when there is government-controlled oligopoly.

SSK, I am still not sure what your so-called "core question" is. You have problems with the current situation, we are basically telling you there is nothing much you can do because of history/incumbent/political/etc. factors. So either you deal with it or you move to a different country. Nothing much concrete you can do if you stay unless you spend your own money to create yourself a new carrier (and you will run into heavy politics and barriers of entry). Bitching about the current situation seems to be a favourite Canadian pastime, but with the current system there is really nothing much we can do.

Wind and Mobilicity are attempts to open up more competition, but the big 3 has momentum and incumbent infrastructure advantages. To go cheap you really do need to go prepaid. I bought an unlocked phone with a prepaid plan since I don't use a lot of minutes. The "unlocked" part is just for me going to another country with a prepaid SIM over there. Going prepaid frees me from the contract's shackles.

Glorious wrote:So you're entitled to a lower price because ...
Well, that is just his opinion, and a opinion shared by a lot of Canadians as well. Nothing much we can do though. Just like nothing much AT&T customers can do. BTW, interesting that you are linking a lot to CBC, here is a fun one.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:20 am

Since I love seeing this at the top of the Hot Threads on the main page, lemme just say:

Well, look at the way you're dressed!? You can't dress that way and not expect that reaction. You were practically asking for it.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:38 am

sweatshopking wrote:What are you talking about I never demonstrated how I am. X + Y + Z. what exactly is wrong with my equation?

I think what he means is you haven't shown you're paying X + Y + Z rather than X + W (where W = cost of not having a contract, as everyone has stated). Depending on your point of view, coincidentally/conveniently/suspiciously, W = Y + Z.
Now, if you can get your costs broken down, maybe you can call BS and negotiate. FYI, filing a complaint and threatening to walk away is a good negotiation tactic. If everyone is the same as you say, then there is no real incentive for you to leave but there is also no real incentive for you to stay either, so it becomes a question as to how much they want you as a customer (well maybe not you in particular :D).

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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:56 am

Flying Fox wrote:
Glorious wrote:
cynan wrote:I did not mean to contradict any specific statement of yours. The point was only to inform about the sate of the wireless market in Canada (or at least Ontario, with which I am intimately aware). To sum up, there is really only two companies, Bell and Rogers, which, due to whatever market pressures, public and federal apathy, etc, has resulted in a "duopoly" who are more apt to scratch each others back to keep status quo (because things are currently so darn cushy for them), then actually attempt to compete with one another in any meaningful way.


Flying Fox, who lives in Canada as well, doesn't seem to agree with your characterization.

Actually Glorious, I am on the same side as cynan about the "non-competitiveness" of the Canadian market. Just that in Ontario it is not a 2-horse race but a 3-horse race. Their behaviour is suspect all the time. Instead of competition driving prices down, they actually tend to go up and it looks like collusion. Of course the "government", through the ineffective CRTC (what do you expect when that commission is full of ex-telecom execs?), can't prove anything and won't do anything. :evil: Now that is worth bitching about. Openmedia.ca is trying to rally Canadians against the CRTC on the issue of ISP and UBB, it is the most successful campaign against them so far (they got the industry minister to tell CRTC to shove Bell's UBB plans up their behind, but that fight is not over). This is always the situation when there is government-controlled oligopoly.

SSK, I am still not sure what your so-called "core question" is. You have problems with the current situation, we are basically telling you there is nothing much you can do because of history/incumbent/political/etc. factors. So either you deal with it or you move to a different country. Nothing much concrete you can do if you stay unless you spend your own money to create yourself a new carrier (and you will run into heavy politics and barriers of entry). Bitching about the current situation seems to be a favourite Canadian pastime, but with the current system there is really nothing much we can do.

Wind and Mobilicity are attempts to open up more competition, but the big 3 has momentum and incumbent infrastructure advantages. To go cheap you really do need to go prepaid. I bought an unlocked phone with a prepaid plan since I don't use a lot of minutes. The "unlocked" part is just for me going to another country with a prepaid SIM over there. Going prepaid frees me from the contract's shackles.

Glorious wrote:So you're entitled to a lower price because ...
Well, that is just his opinion, and a opinion shared by a lot of Canadians as well. Nothing much we can do though. Just like nothing much AT&T customers can do. BTW, interesting that you are linking a lot to CBC, here is a fun one.



Thank you flying, I appreciate your points, My core question was, "is there a justifiable reason, that I should be paying the same amount, when i didn't get a phone, that has an additional cost to the carrier".

My point wasn't really to complain, just to see if perhaps there was something I was missing.

Thank you, as well pixel, your equation clears things up a bit.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:04 pm

But what about still being on contract without a subsidized phone. I see 3 options:
The 2 currently available:
A: Be on contract, get a subsidized phone - The user gets a 'free' phone, and the carrier has a guaranteed customer for 2 years
B: Not be on contract, not get a subsidized phone - The user has to pay for their own phone, but the carrier konws the customer can bolt at any time and thus has to work harder to keep them

I'd like to introduce the 3rd option:
C: Be on contract, without a subsidized phone - The carrier has a guaranteed customer for 2 years, yet the user has the choice of getting a cheap phone or buying an expensive one.

I'd wager that the reason this option isn't really available is due to the fact that very few people (at least in the US) want to pay up-front for a phone, so there's a very small market for it.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:04 pm

l33t-g4m3r wrote:
sweatshopking wrote:I don't understand what's confusing about this.

You are correct. The problem is not with you, but how utterly brainwashed the corporate drones people trolling you are.
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
There really is no excuse for your phone company's corrupt business practices, but strangely enough people are attempting to justify it. There is no justification here, and you are obviously being taken advantage of. However, it doesn't seem that you have any option other than to put up with it at the moment. I can't offer you any advice, but you do have my sympathies.


What a load of crap. How is he being taken advantage of? He can either CHOOSE to use their service and pay what they want for that service, or he can CHOOSE not to. There is nothing "corrupt" about it - they're charging what the market will bear. If people start demanding lower prices to the point where it affects their bottom line, the prices will go down.

There is no justification needed. They're offering a service at a certain price. If you want that service, you pay that price. If you don't find the price acceptable, you don't use the service. You can whine and moan all you want about how unfair you think it is, but it really is that simple.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:06 pm

cphite wrote:What a load of crap. How is he being taken advantage of? He can either CHOOSE to use their service and pay what they want for that service, or he can CHOOSE not to. There is nothing "corrupt" about it - they're charging what the market will bear. If people start demanding lower prices to the point where it affects their bottom line, the prices will go down.

There is no justification needed. They're offering a service at a certain price. If you want that service, you pay that price. If you don't find the price acceptable, you don't use the service. You can whine and moan all you want about how unfair you think it is, but it really is that simple.

Agreed. The market is bearing the current costs, because if it didn't, more options would be available.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:11 pm

Thank god for Wind, Mobilicity and the new Quebec provider up here. Instead of getting raped by rogers paying 60$ for a voice plan that I could basically only use evenings and weekends I know have a 35$ plan where I have unlimited voice, unlimited data, unlimited Canada/USA long distance, unlimited tethering, no service fees, no overage charges, no contract, no cancellation fee with unlimited texting, caller ID, and voicemail included.

Eat a dick Rogers, Bell and Telus. Go find somewhere else to collude and buy off the government.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:12 pm

Flying Fox wrote:Their behaviour is suspect all the time. Instead of competition driving prices down, they actually tend to go up and it looks like collusion. Of course the "government", through the ineffective CRTC (what do you expect when that commission is full of ex-telecom execs?),


Regulatory capture is not a Canadian phenomenon Flying Fox.

Why anyone finds this surprising in 2011 is what should be surprising.

Regulation is not a mechanism to lower prices. It is, explicitly, a legally collusive mechanism.

Flying Fox wrote:Now that is worth bitching about.


Maybe, but does anyone have any consideration for facts and economics?

Canadian wireless telecoms are NOT the most profitable. They do NOT have the most expensive voice minutes. I've established these points with evidence, sometimes even the evidence provided by my opponents.

If you want to whine about something, you'd best get the details right first. Instead, I've seen inaccurate claim after claim. It's shameless.

Flying Fox wrote:Wind and Mobilicity are attempts to open up more competition, but the big 3 has momentum and incumbent infrastructure advantages.


THIS IS IT IN A NUT SHELL.

What all of you have completely failed to do is explain where there is any sort of market failure whatsoever. In fact, you're openly admitting that Wind and Mobilicity are not major competitors because of market realities. You've just justified the existing price structure. Congratulations.

Flying Fox wrote:Well, that is just his opinion, and a opinion shared by a lot of Canadians as well.


Everyone, everywhere, wants everything to be cheaper. So what?
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:17 pm

Shambles wrote:Thank god for Wind, Mobilicity and the new Quebec provider up here. Instead of getting raped by rogers paying 60$ for a voice plan that I could basically only use evenings and weekends I know have a 35$ plan where I have unlimited voice, unlimited data, unlimited Canada/USA long distance, unlimited tethering, no service fees, no overage charges, no contract, no cancellation fee with unlimited texting, caller ID, and voicemail included.

Eat a dick Rogers, Bell and Telus. Go find somewhere else to collude and buy off the government.


lucky devil. they're not in my area :(
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:18 pm

If people are required to have cell phones for work, work should pay for them. Otherwise, if you think it's too costly don't buy one. I agree there's stuff that looks wrong, and it cost craptons more than my landline (for reasons I don't grok)...so I don't have one.

Now I agree, that if you don't get a handset through the company you *should* be able to get cheaper rates and let out of early termination fees...but if they don't offer that then yeah, maybe consider not getting a contract and living w/out a smart phone?
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:36 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:If people are required to have cell phones for work, work should pay for them. Otherwise, if you think it's too costly don't buy one. I agree there's stuff that looks wrong, and it cost craptons more than my landline (for reasons I don't grok)...so I don't have one.

Now I agree, that if you don't get a handset through the company you *should* be able to get cheaper rates and let out of early termination fees...but if they don't offer that then yeah, maybe consider not getting a contract and living w/out a smart phone?


well yes, and that's my opinion as well. the question was just whether or not there was a justifiable reason for them to charge the same rates, when they don't subsidize the phone.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:29 pm

sweatshopking wrote:the question was just whether or not there was a justifiable reason for them to charge the same rates, when they don't subsidize the phone.


It started as a question about two pages back and received an answer. Now the repetition of the question is merely a quest for unicorns.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:51 pm

sweatshopking wrote:As for Ludi's comment on the full retard, i fail to see what "full retard" has to do with this discussion.

That wasn't about the discussion generally, it was about the specific comment I quoted. There's a line between cutting loose and going a little crazy, and going full retard.

That said, the non-competitiveness of the Canadian telecom market, which is rapidly being matched in the US (AT&T's acquisition of T-Mobile will pretty much write the epitaph), pretty much answers your OP, IMO. The vendors don't compete harder for your money because they don't have to. The provider competition is weak, and the customers don't demand better, because they generally latch on to the phone contracts in order to get a new phone every 1-2 years and only look at the "affordability" of the monthly payment, rather than the total payout.

Those who buy their own unlocked phones and go from there -- myself included -- are a minority. I do it anyway because I want the option of dropping service at-will.

And that's all I've got. Carry on.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:03 pm

Actually, I do got one more:

Dear TR wrote:Dear TR,

Why do I get raped if I have my own phone?

Sincerely,
SSK


Dear SSK,

We are very sorry to hear about your experiences with violent crime, and wish you the best in your recovery. Nobody ever deserves to be sexually assaulted, but fortunately, there are measures you can take to protect yourself in the future. Have you programmed the 911 Emergency Services number into your speed dial directory? Under current telecommunication laws, a cellular telephone operating within service range is required to dial through to 911, even without an active service contract.

Also, some cellular handsets are more effective than others when used as a defensive weapon. If possible, purchase your next handset at a brick and mortar store, where you can compare the available heft and materials durability under repeated striking. (Be sure to have the sales associate sign a waiver before taking practice swings.) In this regard, we here at Dear TR utterly deplore the trend toward thin and light handsets. We are aware of at least three cases where the classic Motorola brick phone was used to fend off a violent assault and the results speak well of themselves.

Sincerely,
TR
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:14 pm

ludi wrote:Actually, I do got one more:

Dear TR wrote:Dear TR,

Why do I get raped if I have my own phone?

Sincerely,
SSK


Dear SSK,

We are very sorry to hear about your experiences with violent crime, and wish you the best in your recovery. Nobody ever deserves to be sexually assaulted, but fortunately, there are measures you can take to protect yourself in the future. Have you programmed the 911 Emergency Services number into your speed dial directory? Under current telecommunication laws, a cellular telephone operating within service range is required to dial through to 911, even without an active service contract.

Also, some cellular handsets are more effective than others when used as a defensive weapon. If possible, purchase your next handset at a brick and mortar store, where you can compare the available heft and materials durability under repeated striking. (Be sure to have the sales associate sign a waiver before taking practice swings.) In this regard, we here at Dear TR utterly deplore the trend toward thin and light handsets. We are aware of at least three cases where the classic Motorola brick phone was used to fend off a violent assault and the results speak well of themselves.

Sincerely,
TR



LOLIRL ♥♥♥♥ you ludi :)

As for Ryu, you're right the thread has gone on too long. As for the unicorns, if you might know where we can find some, let me know. PM me though, cause me and you, well, WE COULD MAKE A FORTUNE!!!
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:18 pm

unicorns.

Yeah I can't catch those anymore anyhow.
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Re: Why do i get raped if i have my own phone?

Postposted on Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:44 pm

I'm stating the obvious again, but that seems to be what you're asking.

If the market can bear a cellular operator who offers better value without locking you in as their customer it will probably happen. The barrier to competition is that the big players already have infrastructure and its not really feasible for a startup to just come along and throw up their own network. So they would have to piggyback on somebody elses infrastructure.

Here in NZ there are two major phone companies, Telecom and Vodafone. They have been gouging customers for the longest time, yet a couple of years ago we had a new phone company start up due to this (2degrees). And their business model is basically what you are asking for, cheaper calling rates off contract but they don't offer handset deals. They are running profitably despite relying on Vodafones network to carry their services. This competition has also forced Telecom and Vodafone to lower their charges to be slightly less obscene.

I don't know if the Canadian/US markets are regulated, but if they aren't then good luck with getting a cheaper deal :lol:

To flip your question around the other way, why would a phone company offer you a cheaper deal without locking you into their service? When you're stuck with a duopoly they get nothing out of offering you such a deal. If someone can offer you that deal and still make a buck then maybe they will enter the market.
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