Long Range gun question

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Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 6:59 am

So I am looking to buy or get built a 1000yd gun. The caliber I think I am going to go with is .243. Price wise its shootable and according to what I have read they are pretty accurate at that range. So I was curious if anyone knows some good sites that have .243 parts available and that I will not be waiting over a month for parts. Or if anyone knows any rifles that would be a good one to start with.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 8:03 am

I think you're getting waaaaay too specialized for a computing forum. Not exactly something your average gun owner would delve into. You'd do much better on a site dedicated to firearms.

Besides, most of the zombies will be well within 1000 yards anyhow. At least initially.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 8:16 am

Maybe but i normally only sit on forums while at work. And work tends to block gun related web sites. There are alot of gun threads here and some people seem pretty in the know about these things so i figured i would ask.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 8:44 am

I have built a few .243's. While a good 300 yard rifle (look at Remington 700 as a base action), I would not have thought of them as 1000 yard shooters. Most .243 bullets drop 35 (+/-5)" at 500 yards, and that is if they are zeroed at 200 yards.

Hornady
Weatherby

OTOH, these guys think it's fine at 1000y
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 8:51 am

SpartanCaptain wrote:Maybe but i normally only sit on forums while at work. And work tends to block gun related web sites. There are alot of gun threads here and some people seem pretty in the know about these things so i figured i would ask.

Yeah, there seem to be a good number of gun enthusiasts here (though I'm not one myself). Posting the question doesn't seem at all out of line to me.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 8:54 am

Most of the stuff I have read says that if you put together a quality .243 then you should have no issue at 1000yds. To be honest most of the time I only get a chance to goto 100-300yd ranges. I normally use my AR15 at 100yds, but I was looking for something I could put a bigger scope on and bring with me weather shooting 100 or 1000, and this just seems like the best option for that.

LFK you said you have built a few. Where did you order stocks/ barrels from?
Also I will end up needing to probably buy a used .243 rifle to get the actual reciever parts out of any so if anyone knows of any for sale let me know, my brother in law has a FFL so shipping should not be an issue.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 9:09 am

I would download this software http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/ballistics_application.aspx
It's Federal's ballistics software. You can compare many different rounds range, windage, and velocities. I use .308 for long range but have never needed to go much paste 400yds, you might want to look at a .270. .243 doesn't look good at 1000 yds,it's too light.I have bergara barrel and a redfield scope on my .308
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 9:16 am

The thing with a light bullet like .243 is that it will be strongly affected by wind, especially at long ranges. You can compensate some with extra powder to make a faster round, but I don't know how far you can push that on a typical rifle.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 10:27 am

SpartanCaptain wrote:So I am looking to buy or get built a 1000yd gun. The caliber I think I am going to go with is .243. Price wise its shootable and according to what I have read they are pretty accurate at that range. So I was curious if anyone knows some good sites that have .243 parts available and that I will not be waiting over a month for parts. Or if anyone knows any rifles that would be a good one to start with.


What chamber? .243 winchester, 6mm dasher, 6mm BR, 240 weatherby magnum, Some short magnum, etc.
What are you shooting? IBS, NBRSA, PA, NC, or Hobby. Or is it a 1000yd gun you have to hold? What is your weight or length limit? is there a barrel size limit?

I have Rem 700 actions, 40x, Hall, stolle, time precision, and Win 70 actions, and win 70 push feed is by far the best stock action to use. Rem700 is total junk out of the box.

An off the shelf gun for 1,000 yards ain't gonna happen unless its a custom shop and then you better make sure its a 1,000 yard smith that actually shoots 1,000 yds.

What weight bullet you want to shoot? That will determine your twist rate in the barrel and there will be a small range of bullets that will shoot in the barrel.

Honestly, its been 20 + years since I considered a factory gun for anything, so I don't know much about them. I buy them, take them down, use the action and throw the rest away, so I buy the cheapest gun available to get the action I want.

Most people that shoot factory guns at our matches shoot .300 ultras or old military stuff. A factory 10 twist 243 winchester would maybe stabilize an 80 grain berger at 1,000 yds. An 8 twist barrel would be better.

Wheatherby..... not a chance... no custom triggers overpriced overrated. virtually no extraction.

Remington.... suicide trigger. junk extractor, less than .050" extraction. tons of aftermarket support, multiple triggers available, needs replacement recoil lug and extractor for 1,000 yard service. never will be safe.... leave the bolt open till on target.

Custom actions. Hall, Stolle, Time precision, Nesika bay, BAT, and on and on.... most don't have bolt safety and don't have much extraction. some have cone bolt which in nice. I don't like a sako extractor, I like a sliding plate, but anything is better than a remington clip extractor. most all will fit a rem style trigger so a good trigger can be had.

Mauser style actions.. lots of extraction, some good safeties, slow lock times, not much trigger selection, massive claw extractors.

Win model 70 push feed... My favorite.. integral strong recoil lug, three position firing pin bolt based safety.. fire, load/unload with pin blocked, and bolt locked down safe., jewel trigger available with three springs for 1.5 oz to 8lb trigger., plenty of scope mount options, sliding plate extractor, and plenty of extraction. This is a military style action, so the lock time is some slower. a titanium firing pin and spring help, but generally I don't because the titanium firing pins give trouble. this action needs receiver face, bolt face, lug abutment, and lug truing(as do all factory actions).

Savage actions... good factory, but not a lot of aftermarket support. multiple piece bolt works but is different not good or bad you just have to get used to the lost motion.

You could go buy a factory gun used with a decent stock on it, have it rebarreled, have the action trued, pillar bed the stock,install a good trigger, and end up with a serviceable shooter capable of 5" or so at 1,000 yds. Its going to take probably the better part of a year to get it going. A custom barrel is 6 months to get, (you might luck up and get a shelf barrel), the barrel has to be installed, the stock has to be worked, you need some 25 MOA tapered scope mounts, the mounts have to be lapped in.

I have some experience shooting .243 at 1,000 yds, but most of my chambers are 30-06 based. customized 243 super rock chucker. I shoot the .243 case on my .22. 22-243 middlestead. again its customized with less case taper and matching die reamer.

You can go to the site nc1000results login as guest and goto match1 factory gun and match 2 factory gun. You can see what factory guns do.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 10:43 am

The good news is my brother in law is a gun smith, who competes at 1000yds. So getting the work done isn't an issue. Parts is where the problem is. Getting a barrel blank even is looking like 2 months or more wait.

Besides the barrel I really can't find any sites with a good selection of stocks.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 10:45 am

I believe that the current record for 1,000 yard shooting was done with a 6mm BR.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 1:07 pm

SpartanCaptain wrote:The good news is my brother in law is a gun smith, who competes at 1000yds. So getting the work done isn't an issue. Parts is where the problem is. Getting a barrel blank even is looking like 2 months or more wait.

Besides the barrel I really can't find any sites with a good selection of stocks.


Bruno Shooters supply has multiple barrels in stock in multiple contours, multiple mfs, and multiple twists. Also have stocks.

www.brunoshooters.com

www.scopeusout.com stocks etc.

There are lots of stock makers that can crank out a wood stock in no time. fiberglass would be on the shelf from mcmillan, h-s precision, bruno's etc. Depends on your taste. Parts are no problem I can have everything to build a gun here in the morning. You need to decide which bullet you are going to shoot 1st, Then decide on Throat to match, neck to match, reamers, blank dies etc. A standard saami reamer will not work. You are going to need a shorter throat probably.

Vrock wrote:I believe that the current record for 1,000 yard shooting was done with a 6mm BR.

Which record? There's multiple classes, sanctioning bodies etc.
The problem with a 6mmBR/Dasher etc. is they are too slow and suck when the wind blows. I got beat by a 6mmBR that shot a 3.450" group in our 1st match, and he didn't get a single bullet on paper the second time he shot that day. Live by the sword die by the sword. You need something that will shoot 10" in more than a 10mph wind then you can be in it all the time.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 6:18 pm

cass wrote:Which record? There's multiple classes, sanctioning bodies etc.
Didn't know that. Was something I heard at the club from a benchrest guy. Then again, he claimed to have known Carlos Hathcock, so what does that tell you? :D
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 7:31 pm

SpartanCaptain wrote:LFK you said you have built a few. Where did you order stocks/ barrels from?
Also I will end up needing to probably buy a used .243 rifle to get the actual reciever parts out of any so if anyone knows of any for sale let me know, my brother in law has a FFL so shipping should not be an issue.


I have generally used Remington barreled actions (700 ADL or BDL). For stocks I buy semi inletted blanks; and I like thumbholes with a roll over comb. I shoot left handed (still use right handed actions), and the roll overs allow a cheack rest for someone else to use if they shoot one of my rifles.

Thumbhole blanks.

Image
The one on top is a right handed I built for my daughter. Rem. 700 ADL with a heavy stock. It's a good bench rest shooter for her out @ 300 yards.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 7:42 pm

Well I ended up going a completely different direction then originally doing.
I liked the Axiom stocks so I bought this
http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/p ... rchID=4005

it will be chambered in 308.

It will be getting some work done to it to try and get it to be a good shooter. And as for price I got it much lower than that.

Now I just gotta find a decent scope.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Mon May 14, 2012 9:38 pm

SpartanCaptain wrote:Well I ended up going a completely different direction then originally doing.
I liked the Axiom stocks so I bought this
http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/p ... rchID=4005

it will be chambered in 308.

It will be getting some work done to it to try and get it to be a good shooter. And as for price I got it much lower than that.

Now I just gotta find a decent scope.


FWIW, the bottom rifle in the picture above is a Howa, in .338 Win. Mag.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 15, 2012 6:50 am

Looking for Knowledge wrote:
SpartanCaptain wrote:Well I ended up going a completely different direction then originally doing.
I liked the Axiom stocks so I bought this
http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/p ... rchID=4005

it will be chambered in 308.

It will be getting some work done to it to try and get it to be a good shooter. And as for price I got it much lower than that.

Now I just gotta find a decent scope.


FWIW, the bottom rifle in the picture above is a Howa, in .338 Win. Mag.


How do you like the Howa?
Cass said in his post above that weatherby, which i believe makes howa, sucks.
Is this going to be true. I have only read good things about the howa I ordered.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 15, 2012 7:21 am

Sorry but .243 is way too light of a round and looses energy dramatically past 400 yards.Then you have the wind factor,the243 will be blown off with a 5 mph wind past 400yrds

I own a savage 250-3000 model 99 ,close to the same round and it acts like a 243 pretty much.

A 30-06 is effective at 1000yrds it way be a old round but it's still quite effective.
Now the NATO 7.62mm or 308 has a shorter case but it's fatter ,it has some effect that pushes the bullet out of the gun more evenly,plus it is proven to shoot better then the 30-06 at 1000yrds. Here is a link comparing them at competitions.

http://www.snipercountry.com/articles/accuracyfacts.asp

As for pricing I am not sure what would be a cheaper build.

I have 2 savage 110s in 30-06 but only shot it at 300 yards they r awesome,wish I had 1000yrd range to try my 06s but I do not :(
Now if u want to get pricy a 338 lapula is a great long range devastating round. Now a step up from a 50 BMG Barrett would be the 416 Barrett wi h has longer range and a flatter trajectory. But big money!
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 15, 2012 8:37 am

cass wrote:... (a lot of cool experienced advice) ...


Curious what you think about the DPMS SASS for this application? I'm thinking of getting one myself - perhaps the OP would also be interested.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 15, 2012 8:50 am

SpartanCaptain wrote:
How do you like the Howa?
Cass said in his post above that weatherby, which i believe makes howa, sucks.
Is this going to be true. I have only read good things about the howa I ordered.


It works fine for what it is, a rifle to hunt elk sized game. I trust what Cass has to say, but the Howa works fine for a field grade rifle.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 15, 2012 10:35 am

Cass I hope you can come back and give me some insight on the gun I ended up buying.
Also what is the best scope in 300-400 dollar range it will occasionally be shot at 100yds but also quite a bit higher I am hoping.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 15, 2012 7:59 pm

anyone have any insight on the Howa axiom?
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Wed May 16, 2012 1:10 am

SpartanCaptain wrote:Cass I hope you can come back and give me some insight on the gun I ended up buying.
Also what is the best scope in 300-400 dollar range it will occasionally be shot at 100yds but also quite a bit higher I am hoping.


I just went upstairs and got my howa out. Mine is a model 1500 7mm rem mag. standard two bolt lug with a sako extractor. three position suicide safety. I call it that because it is not on the bolt and does not block the firing pin.... it is a remington style nosafe idiot safety. fine for a target rifle, but I wouldn't ever shut the bolt on a loaded round without it being on target.

Howa is pretty much a contract jap manufacturer. make some nice stuff as far as their materials and finish and workmanship.

My beef with wheatherby is on their nine lug actions.... they are near impossible to true for accuracy, and are not for the accuracy game. Probably fine for hunting...dont' know about their safeties and triggers. All that said I have a friend that has one shooting 2" at 600 yds. They are just not as easy to work with as other stuff.

Don't sweat the scope on your rifle too much. I would look through and handle a scope if I were you before I bought it though. I just bought a 6-18 bushnell at walmart that is just flat awesome for a one inch tube scope... 50mm AO. Cost $134.

I won the world open 1,000 yard with a $149 tasco world class 36x. I probably bought it on sale for $99. The new bushnell tasco's are not the same, but the few I have work fine.

It is really important that you get a very good Parallax adjustment, 1/8 moa clicks are nice, resettable to zero knobs are nice. Mil dots or a ranging reticle are good. You will have to decide on whether you are a first or second focal plane man. Me I don't care long as the clicks work right track right, and the parallax comes out, I am good to go. I can live with some cloud and asymmetrical distortion.

Don't get too carried away with the new side focus "tactical" scopes. That 4 inch focus knob will be in the way bad. make sure you get screw on knob caps. Lit reticles are overrated.

Leupold is the most overrated piece of glass you can buy. They got more chinese parts in them than a walmart special.

Get you something with a 30mm tube if possible, get at least 24 power variable. Get some good rings and lap them in with clover compound so you don't dent the scope.

JdL wrote:
cass wrote:... (a lot of cool experienced advice) ...


Curious what you think about the DPMS SASS for this application? I'm thinking of getting one myself - perhaps the OP would also be interested.


Personally I wouldn't want one, would not consider it, would not want to shoot it. would not consider it a threat if it was to be used against me. It looks to be another stoner derivative mickey mouse military toy that is impractical for anything. it is a result of the US being powerful enough that we can have useless toys since we don't have to actually engage an equal enemy in equal situations.

.308 win is a good round once you get it necked down to .22 and .243.

308 winchesters are notorious for landing bullets sideways at our range. You have to take a lot of care get your load right to shoot 1,000 yards plus. You are really limited on bullets, and usuallly you have to run the loads so hot that brass life is awful... I mean like 2-6 shots. A lot of folks shooting the 6mm BR's and dashers are extruding cases into ejectors and extractor slots.... that is just asking for an action malfunction. Most .308 loads are transonic at 1,000 yards and that creates another whole load of problems.

.308 is a fine round, and fine I would say to 600yds and easy to do that much, but 1,000 yards is going to test your patience. .308's are tough to beat in 100,200, and 300 yard score shoots. That .308 bullet is easier to hit the bull with than say a .243 or .22. A 30-06 has it beat all to hell at any thing except recoil and efficiency. A larger .30 caliber just gets better ballistically and worse comfort wise till you get to about .300 wheatherby size and then you get to overkill.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Wed May 16, 2012 8:39 am

Thanks for the info. The howa 1500 got good reviews on other sites so I figured I would try it out.
I was going to just get a basic one then order a stock, but then I saw the Knoxx Axiom version so I went with that.
The only issues is I didn't realize before hand that the stock was all plastic and not the aluminum one I have seen in the past.

As far as optics go I see you are against Leupold. Last night I was at gander mountain and looked through a bunch of different scopes
A nikon m223, a Trijicon AccuPoint, a leupold Mark AR, and a Zeiss Conquest.
IMO even though it was the cheapest scope in the group the Leupold had the clearest scope to me. And it seemed like its eye relief was better than the others. I did like the fiber optic on the trijicon but the Leupold seemed to have a much clearer optic than the others. I also looked through a Leupold vx-1 though and was not impressed at all. The only issues with the Mark AR is that there is no Paralax adjustment, and both that and the nikon are made for a 55grain 223 round. Now I kind of want the Leupold vx-r, but you have me worried.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Wed May 16, 2012 9:24 am

Egglick wrote:I think you're getting waaaaay too specialized for a computing forum. Not exactly something your average gun owner would delve into. You'd do much better on a site dedicated to firearms.

Besides, most of the zombies will be well within 1000 yards anyhow. At least initially.


Apparently you don't know Cass (Jack) lol :D


My father in law is a gun smith and he has worked on just about everything.

The other day I saw one of his older customers walk out with with what looked like a WWII anti-material rifle - absolutely HUGE.
I asked the guy what he used it for. He just grinned and said "Fishing!". LOL

Apparently he is some kind of long range shooter trained by Canadian special forces now retired in his 70's or so.
They let him keep the gun when he retired. Uses it for grizzly bear and moose hunting.

He described it as slow but heavy hitter. Was a bolt action and the bullets looked like 50 cal.
I asked him about the recoil and he said it was like shooting a shot gun, both barrels.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Wed May 16, 2012 5:35 pm

Ok I got a scope.
Nikon Monarch 4-16x42 with sun shade mil dot version

now to put it on and test it all out
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 22, 2012 1:15 pm

Sigh. I'm late to the party, as usual. All of my long range experience has been with a .308 Remington 700 VSS with Leupold scope on it and nothing done to it other than a bipod.

Mind you, this was more of an... aggressive style of instruction than a typical target shooting class. I did okay during a long range rifle class out to 800 yards or so, but we were using "minutes of human", not minutes of angle. As I recall, .30-06, .308, 7mm and up were considered acceptable for the class. 1,000 yards was for the next class and I didn't have the coin to take it.

I have heard great things about Nightforce scopes. I know a couple guys who swear by them over the Leupolds. I haven't tried 'em, personally. Lordy, they're pricey though.
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 22, 2012 6:58 pm

SpartanCaptain wrote:Ok I got a scope.
Nikon Monarch 4-16x42 with sun shade mil dot version

now to put it on and test it all out


How much area does that mil dot cover up @ 1,000 yards?
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Tue May 22, 2012 7:24 pm

Apparently a standard mil-dot will cover 36" at 1000yd.

http://www.mil-dot.com/articles/the-mildot-reticle
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Re: Long Range gun question

Postposted on Wed May 23, 2012 7:47 am

I am not entirely sure off hand how much it covers at 1000yd. the recticle is very thin but ill have to look it up.
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