Cars - are they commodities?

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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:57 pm

jss21382 wrote: Most shops in the US can't even do an alignment on a german luxury car because of specialized tools required. But a properly aligned bmw/mercedes will out handle just about any of the japanese or us vehicles.

So according to you a Corvette, Nissan GTR or Lexus LFA can't hold a candle in handling to an underpowered, overweight, overpriced, poseur-special BMW 320i as long as BMW is adjusted by a European mechanic? You must be kidding.

As for Eurotrash, those cars tend to be very overpriced, quite complex, unreliable and expensive to fix when older. That would go double for Germans. Take Subaru WRX and compare it to an entry level 320i. Sure, Subaru might look a bit silly and the interior materials are pretty cheap. But it's got much more power, good awd, practicality (on hatchback), amazing tunability with huge aftermarket support and much better long-term reliability. And yet a fully loaded WRX is still cheaper than a base stripper 320i with rwd and no options. Why? Because you're paying for the badge and the privilege of driving a BMW over common sense. Oh, and to make you feel better according to google stock WRX pulls .9g on skidpad while 320i does .88g. What was it you were saying about German cars handling better?
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:39 am

The vette, gtr, lfa,and wrx account for what about 1% of the asian and us vehicles on the road? I didn't say euro cars outhandle all us and asian cars, but as a whole euro cars still handle better, their suspensions are more complex, etc. Most us vehicles and probably half of the asian vehicle are running strut based suspensions with a simple lower a frame that allows no real camber change as it goes through it's range of motion. Look at most asian vehicles you'll find 3-5 link suspensions that are a lot more active than what we typically have on our cars.

I personally have an Altima SE-R because I don't want to work on my own car when I work on cars all day at work.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:46 am

That's still an incorrect and hugely outdated generalization :wink: Like I said before, it depends on the particular brand and model - for example, BMW has almost "abandoned" the focus on performance and driving characteristics in almost ALL of new models (not sure about upcoming M3/M4 but I am not very optimistic judging by current M5) - nowadays it's more about comfort, fuel economy and electric gizmos for them, whereas with companies like Cadillac and Lexus it is actually opposite. Has nothing to do with "complexity" of suspension or any **** like that but rather with "tuning" of suspension/steering response and similar things. Anyway, check out these comparisons for a more clear example:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sed ... ewall.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons ... ats-page-2

Or even a comparison between the E90 328i and new F30 328i which shows the focus shift even more clearly:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/new ... -1-roa0813

Heck, even look at BMW's Ads - nowadays they focus on features like "automatic trunk release" and "steering wheel heating" (in their F30 Ads) or a boring videos of a car going fast in straight line (in new F10 M5 Ads), whereas in the past they used to advertise their cars with slogans like "ultimate driving machine" and such masterpiece Ads like this - one of the best car Ads I have ever seen in my life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1dYv_gKTA8&sns=em :wink:
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:33 pm

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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:31 am

The Grand Cherokee, 300, and Durango, at their heart are still Daimler products, they've had new electronics and trim laid on top of them, but the chassis is more or less unchanged from their designs finalized at the end of the Daimler era. I'm really hopeful to see what they do with the next generation of the Grand Cherokee. I believe the Minivans are going to be the next line to get a fiat based replacement, I'm really curious to see how that turns out as well.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:46 am

JohnC wrote:
ludi wrote: Meanwhile, the earth is littered with drivable 1991-1996 and 1997-2001 Toyota Camrys.

Surprising assumption, considering the many interesting results Google can find when searching for "Toyota Camry sludge" :wink:

It's not an assumption, I've owned both body styles and correspondingly notice them more often.

IIRC the sludging issue primarily affected some of the V6 models, particularly if the owners were lax about oil changes (which a lot of consumers tend to be on a vehicle that doesn't give them any other regular service problems), because the engine in those models is tilted back in the engine bay and oil would correspondingly pool in the head of the V6's rear bank.

Also, as a general matter of statistics, you also have to consider that when a particular car sells by the metric crapton, there are going to be many instances of a specific service issue reported even if it affected a comparatively small proportion of the total stock.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:44 pm

JohnC wrote:If you want to "go fast in straight line" - then it's probably better to choose some inexpensive American car like Camaro/Mustang/Corvette :wink:

You've never driven a modern (post-C3) Corvette have you? :P
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:56 pm

Waco wrote:
JohnC wrote:If you want to "go fast in straight line" - then it's probably better to choose some inexpensive American car like Camaro/Mustang/Corvette :wink:

You've never driven a modern (post-C3) Corvette have you? :P

No. Was too disgusted by its awful interiors and I can't drive blindfolded :P
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:22 pm

jss21382 wrote:The vette, gtr, lfa,and wrx account for what about 1% of the asian and us vehicles on the road? I didn't say euro cars outhandle all us and asian cars, but as a whole euro cars still handle better, their suspensions are more complex, etc. Most us vehicles and probably half of the asian vehicle are running strut based suspensions with a simple lower a frame that allows no real camber change as it goes through it's range of motion. Look at most asian vehicles you'll find 3-5 link suspensions that are a lot more active than what we typically have on our cars.

I personally have an Altima SE-R because I don't want to work on my own car when I work on cars all day at work.

Euro cars have more complex suspensions because most of them tend to be on the expensive side. A most basic BMW starts at $34K or so. Similarly priced Japanese cars are no less sophisticated. On top of that sophisticated suspensions come at a price - I hear BMW required major suspension maintenance while many Japanese cars can handle a lot more miles on original factory setup. I had 2 Hondas before, they both had original suspension at 160K and 140K respectively. Imho, European cars are very overpriced for what they are. You're paying for a badge and that's expensive!
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:26 am

It's worse than that. If you buy a Mercedes, not only do you over-pay to buy the vehicle, you're getting one that has more manufacturing defects than a Buick (according to J.D. Power and Consumer Reports), that breaks down more often and that costs three times as much to repair (again according to Consumer Reports).

Conversely, Hondas and Toyotas have well-earned reputations for reliability.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:32 am

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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:25 am

JustAnEngineer wrote: (according to J.D. Power and Consumer Reports), that breaks down more often and that costs three times as much to repair (again according to Consumer Reports).
Conversely, Hondas and Toyotas have well-earned reputations for reliability.

:lol: Naive Americans still believe in these "random number" - generating publications?

P.S: Our family were one of the first owners of the new Lexus LS460, back in 2006. That was the worst car (in terms of reliability and interior build quality) I have ever had experience with. "Peeling" plastic on interior lower B-pillars (there was TSB for that), huge gap between glove compartment's door and the dashboard (there was TSB from Lexus for the ways to adjust it properly), rear suspension's loud "thunk" noise when going over rough bumps (again, there was TSB from Lexus explaining to mechanics how to adjust that), plastic seat ventilation components inside the lower seat cushion making the seats "uncomfortable" (again, there was TSB from Lexus about that issue), hard to program HomeLink transmitter (again, a known problem explained in Lexus' TSB)... Oh, and yea, there was also a very poor aerodynamic design of exterior mirrors which Lexus tried to unsuccessfully fix several times (and some owners tried to fix it themselves with glue gun and such):
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls460-l ... ssion.html
Count the number of pages in this thread, please.
This was not the first Lexus car we owned but it was the last one. Not only because of the known defects but also because of things like Lexus' idiotic choice of using "mouse" controller for their newest navigation systems as well as awful new exterior designs on their latest models (the "Predator mouth" grille is too much).
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:08 am

I do agree that the major car makers out there are pretty much on the same level. Technology has gotten to a point where in it's pretty much available to any car company that has had enough experience with designing and manufacturing vehicles. Is this car meant to be a 'global car'? We can design it with cheaper materials and cheaper design elements (say, drum brakes instead of disc brakes). Is it gonna be an upscale model? We can lace it with faux wood trim and fancy lights. Of course the Germans tend to overcomplicate things, but as a mode of transport we've gone a long way from when cars were unreliable.

Of course, there are many cheap Chinese car makers that are probably cranking out crappy cars. Cars are still sophisticated machines and only experienced car makers really even deserve to be called as such.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:05 pm

JohnC wrote:Yeap, pretty much a marketing trick - MB just "rounded it off" to a 6.3 number :wink: Pretty common thing between car manufacturers - for example, GM does it to their LS9/LSA engines (6,162 cc rounded to "6.2").

I would update my sig if I were you. It will make it appear as if you actually know what is under your own hood.


JohnC wrote:
End User wrote:unless it was to post, yet again, that he/she owns a CLS550.

You're jelly that some people can afford to enjoy luxury things which you might not be able to ever afford during your sad, miserable lifetime? :wink:

Miserable? LOL. If I had your flappy paddle (no skill) transmission I would be miserable. I'm a happy sod. I paid cash for my manual 2012 GLI. Who knows what my next car will be.

This may be hard for you to believe but there are people out there, such as myself, who don't view Mercs as desirable cars. Mercs are just white noise to me. A Caterham Superlight R300 is what floats my boat.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:16 pm

I do not really care about what "floats your boat" or what you think of flappy paddles (and I never asked you to share this opinion of yours), but you seem to be very concerned about what other people have in their signatures or how many times they want to mention their future car purchase... Why?
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:03 pm

JohnC needs a cookie.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:13 pm

Do you have any? :-?

P.S: Oh crap... Now I see Lexus Ad banners all over TR... And BMW... And Subaru :o
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:16 pm

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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:36 pm

clone wrote:not so much random number

No? I personally have randomly checked boxes on my J.D. Powers' "initial quality" survey which I have received few days ago and sent it back. I also wrote how I hate all of the features of my car, its interior and exterior design and crappy material quality, just for lulz (I have no personal financial interest in answering these "truthfully", I also sent the $1 bill back to them). You think other people can't do that? :wink:
Some might even go as far as to use logic such as "my car is good, but I will give a negative review anyway so the manufacturer will continue striving to improve their quality and my next car from them might be even better!" :wink:
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:50 am

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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:28 pm

clone wrote:JDP also has access to warranty data and are granted access to the production lines in many manufacturing plants where they do audits on the fly as the vehicles are being built.

That's a very optimistic assumption, especially considering what they are saying on their own site:
http://www.jdpower.com/faq/faq.htm
"How does J.D. Power and Associates conduct its research?
J.D. Power and Associates surveys consumers and business customers by mail, telephone, and e-mail. The company goes to great lengths to make sure that these respondents are chosen at random and that they actually have experience with the product or company they are rating. For example, ratings for the Lexus IS come from people who actually own one. As a result, J.D. Power and Associates ratings are based entirely on consumer opinions and perceptions." :wink:

Nowhere does it say that they actually use car manufacturer's warranty data (or any other type of objective data) or how much "weight" they give to such data when drawing their fancy bar graphs.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:06 pm

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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:57 pm

Hmm... Whom to believe - factual references or a faceless internets person... Such a hard decision! :wink:

You might have worked with them and listened to their fairy tales but once again, there's absolutely no documented proof that whatever data they got from manufacturers was actually used in their published IQS and VDS results or that it was given more weight than their consumer survey data. Or that they actually use any of such data (manufacturer's or consumer surveys) and not simply generate their own. As such their data is absolutely useless to any intelligent, rational human being :P Which my own first-hand experience (as well as experience of many of my friends/relatives or people from different brand-specific car forums that I've read) has proven to me multiple times. But hey, if some people want to continue deluding themselves with their pretty graphs - it's their choice :wink:
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:09 pm

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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:11 pm

clone wrote: I'll stop here regarding JDP.

Thank you.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:29 pm

End User wrote:
JohnC wrote:Yeap, pretty much a marketing trick - MB just "rounded it off" to a 6.3 number :wink: Pretty common thing between car manufacturers - for example, GM does it to their LS9/LSA engines (6,162 cc rounded to "6.2").

I would update my sig if I were you. It will make it appear as if you actually know what is under your own hood.


This has really been bugging me ever since i pointed it out. :lol: It technically is 6.208 liters, they didn't name the car C63 because it is a 6.3 engine rounded up, they named it a C63 for historical reasons.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:48 pm

JohnC wrote:Hmm... Whom to believe - factual references or a faceless internets person... Such a hard decision! :wink:

Seems to me "don't believe everything you read on the Internet" applies in either case!

Web sites are generally written by the marketing department, and I'd trust marketing people about as far as I can throw them. In many cases (this one included), I'd be more inclined to trust a long-time forum member than a company's own web site when looking for factual information about that company.

It is also possible that they have changed their methodology.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:49 pm

JohnC wrote:
Waco wrote:
JohnC wrote:If you want to "go fast in straight line" - then it's probably better to choose some inexpensive American car like Camaro/Mustang/Corvette :wink:

You've never driven a modern (post-C3) Corvette have you? :P

No. Was too disgusted by its awful interiors and I can't drive blindfolded :P

Funny, I don't notice the interior of my vehicles much at all when I'm actually having fun driving. When is that? All the time. :lol:

Also...fake manual transmissions are terribly un-fun.
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:10 pm

Jive wrote:
End User wrote:
JohnC wrote:Yeap, pretty much a marketing trick - MB just "rounded it off" to a 6.3 number :wink: Pretty common thing between car manufacturers - for example, GM does it to their LS9/LSA engines (6,162 cc rounded to "6.2").

I would update my sig if I were you. It will make it appear as if you actually know what is under your own hood.


This has really been bugging me ever since i pointed it out. :lol: It technically is 6.208 liters, they didn't name the car C63 because it is a 6.3 engine rounded up, they named it a C63 for historical reasons.



Thank you for your concerns about my signature, they are duly noted. I would like to point out to you (and everyone else) the fact that M156 engine is marked as "6.3 Liters" in all of the official documents, press releases as well as public websites, such as Mercedes' own configuration and model information site:
http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAsse ... on_507.pdf
http://www.mercedes-amg.com/engineering ... 8&lang=eng
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/legacy/ve ... &model=C63
It is known as such to majority of people, regardless of actual volume measured in cubic centimeters, therefore I am using most widely accepted measure to prevent the confusion for majority of people, especially the ones not familiar (or not caring enough about) with exact engine volume measurements in centimeters or inches. This forum also has a physical limit on number of characters used in user's signatures, so writing the engine volume information in cubic inches or centimeters or to an exact thousandths decimal point is not very desirable due to extra characters needed. Is there anything else I can educate you (and others) about? :wink:

just brew it! wrote:
JohnC wrote:Hmm... Whom to believe - factual references or a faceless internets person... Such a hard decision! :wink:

It is also possible that they have changed their methodology.

Nah, they did not. For "Initial Quality Study" and "Vehicle Dependability Study" they only (supposedly) survey the consumers. They visit the manufacturer's plants to award the (largely irrelevant, which almost never gets mentioned anywhere) "Plant Assembly Line Quality Award" which has 0 relevance to "quality" and "dependability" awards. You can contact their "Corporate Communications" department, they will explain it in details to you :wink:

Waco wrote:Also...fake manual transmissions are terribly un-fun.

Your subjective preferences are very important to me, thank you for sharing them :wink:
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Re: Cars - are they commodities?

Postposted on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:15 pm

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