Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Hang out, sip some ice tea, and shoot the breeze with TR regulars.

Moderators: emkubed, Captain Ned

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:37 am

sid1089 wrote:Just to add to the thread. You can still make a sizable amount of money by mining other crypto currencies and then converting them to Bitcoins. If you buy hardware and mine smartly, your time to break-even can be as low as 30 days.


The fact that such an inequality exists heavily suggests that the market for one or both is seriously illiquid.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7844
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:19 am

I found this amusing. You have a crytographically secure currency and a yokel running security on your server. TL;DR: Server compromised, all mined work credited to an explicitly stated (static) wallet via file manipulation. I can't even fathom how that file is accessible to the net let alone how it was able to be tampered with in plain text.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/bitcoi ... d=21342612

edit for clarity: The Wallet's server was hacked, not dogecoin.
Corsair 600T | ASUS P8P67 PRO | Intel 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | EVGA 560 TI | G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB | Corsair HX650 650W
steelcity_ballin
Gerbilus Supremus
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 11911
Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 5:55 am
Location: Pittsburgh PA

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:27 pm

Glorious wrote:
sid1089 wrote:Just to add to the thread. You can still make a sizable amount of money by mining other crypto currencies and then converting them to Bitcoins. If you buy hardware and mine smartly, your time to break-even can be as low as 30 days.

The fact that such an inequality exists heavily suggests that the market for one or both is seriously illiquid.

Or highly volatile. Neither of which are desirable features for a stable currency.

steelcity_ballin wrote:I found this amusing. You have a crytographically secure currency and a yokel running security on your server. TL;DR: Server compromised, all mined work credited to an explicitly stated (static) wallet via file manipulation. I can't even fathom how that file is accessible to the net let alone how it was able to be tampered with in plain text.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/bitcoi ... d=21342612

edit for clarity: The Wallet's server was hacked, not dogecoin.

If the server exposes multiple web applications to the outside world, it is not at all far-fetched to imagine that someone discovered an externally exploitable vulnerability in one of 'em.

It is also a bit much to expect a crypto-currency that was started just a month or so ago as a joke to take security as seriously as a more established player like Bitcoin.
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37659
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:14 am

Cryptocurrencies are a good idea but they're currently being held hostage by the sort of get-rich-quick speculators who know just enough to be dangerous; the endless parade of boutique *coins with zero commercial utility are a testament to this. Best case scenario is that the in-progress BTC crash drives the idiots away so prices stabilize and retailers start to adopt it as a payment option. Otherwise the whole system could be stuck in the current catch-22 for quite a while.

On the mining front, my 330MH/s ASIC has pulled in just over 0.018 BTC, or ~$12.50, since October 25. Most of that came in November so if we're not at ASIC break-even already we will be very soon.
NovusBogus
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:37 am

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:33 am

My personal observation is that there seems to be only a small window of opportunity for making money with any particular digital currency. By that I mean, they eventually reach a point where you need to buy specialized hardware in order to remain competitive, and it becomes an arms race.

And that's why I generally have little to no interest. If I happened to be in the right place at the right time, and could make money with a GPU for a while, I would probably do that.....and then stop once it was no longer profitable.
i5 2500k - P67 - GTX660 - 840 Pro 256GB - Xonar Essence STX - Senn HD595's
The Egg
Gerbil XP
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:46 pm

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:37 pm

NovusBogus wrote:Cryptocurrencies are a good idea but they're currently being held hostage by the sort of get-rich-quick speculators who know just enough to be dangerous; the endless parade of boutique *coins with zero commercial utility are a testament to this. Best case scenario is that the in-progress BTC crash drives the idiots away so prices stabilize and retailers start to adopt it as a payment option. Otherwise the whole system could be stuck in the current catch-22 for quite a while.

On the mining front, my 330MH/s ASIC has pulled in just over 0.018 BTC, or ~$12.50, since October 25. Most of that came in November so if we're not at ASIC break-even already we will be very soon.


Friend of mine at work bought a BFL Jalapeno (8GH/s) ASIC miner back in February. He received it early October, and he's near the break-even for his ~250$ purchase price.

He's also running it at work for free AC and cooling. It's a low wattage unit, so a small thing, but every $ helps.
Siglessness is boring.
Image - M4800-Eight1
Image - Vargr-Z97
Forge
Lord High Gerbil
 
Posts: 8010
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2001 7:00 pm
Location: SouthEast PA

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:52 am

Captain Ned wrote:
sjl wrote:Right now, it's flying somewhat under the radar; I doubt it will ever be allowed to become significant.

At both the Federal and State level, bitcoin exchanges will eventually be required to register as money transmitters (it's already under high-level discussion), meaning they'll be subject to Federal and State examinations/inspections, will have to honor the anti money laundering laws and file the appropriate reports, and will have to report to the gov't any suspicious activity (what, bitcoin is inherently suspicious?). Essentially, the regulatory plan is to make it impossible to convert bitcoins to dollars in the US without passing through a regulated gateway and stripping away the anonymity. I can pretty much assure you that the exchanges, if they ever do get a money transmission license, will be heavily regulated until the Feds find enough reason to shut them down.
[/day job]

http://news.yahoo.com/two-bitcoin-excha ... nance.html
Robert Faiella, bitcoin money launderer wrote: "You must understand that the people that we pay taxes to have a long reach and I like to stay away from that."
i7-4770K, H70, Gryphon Z87, 16 GiB, R9-290, SSD, 2 HD, Blu-ray, SB ZX, TJ08-E, SS-660XP², 3007WFP+2001FP, RK-9000BR, MX518
JustAnEngineer
Gerbil God
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 15397
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:24 am

Faiella wrote:You must understand that the people that we pay taxes to have a long reach and I like to stay away from that


Yeah? How's that working for ya?

Captain Ned is right.

What's really meaningful about this is that all the businesses that are supposedly "accepting" bitcoins aren't actually doing any such thing. They are using third-party exchangers like BitInstant. When they "accept" your bitcoin, they never touch the e-currency at all, only USD from the exchanger. Even then, it's generally such a hassle and expense for such a low volume of transactions that it's really only a PR stunt.

The real problem is that bitinstant is almost certainly not the exception. It is far more likely that it is the rule. Essentially, the *only* money these exchangers make is in selling bitcoin, never buying it. This is precisely why Mt.Gox has a two year waiting list for regular folk who want to sell bitcoin (but yet you can buy bitcoin with USD immediately): There are hordes of small-timers trying to cash out but can't. Why? Because they are entirely supplanted by the big-timers (proven to exist by the block-chain) who get first dibs at grabbing the buyers. And since the big-timers have such an enormous hoard of bitcoin, the demand is entirely met.

So why, then, do companies like BitInstant offer services to legitimate businesses in which they'll buy bitcoins? If the demand for bitcoins to cash is completely and entirely met, why on earth would they ever want more?

Easy: It's called a front.

Read the complaint against Shrem and Faiella here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/202555785/Uni ... -M-Faiella

It's clear that Shrem needed Faiella because Faiella was actually selling bitcoins for cash. Faiella need Shrem because he needed the veneer of legitimacy and because any other nexus to the real financial world would call the Feds almost immediately. Why? Because only reason Faiella could find people who were willing to trade cash for bitcoin is because he was servicing the silk road, and banks aren't stupid.

Once Shrem and Faiella's arrangement stopped in October 2012, I imagine that Shrem had a problem, which he temporarily solved with the infusion of funding from the Winklevoss twins of "Social Network." fame. But, even then, within two months BitInstant was done for good.

More common sense people, and less unreasonable enthusiasm...
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7844
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:54 am

Glorious wrote:What's really meaningful about this is that all the businesses that are supposedly "accepting" bitcoins aren't actually doing any such thing. They are using third-party exchangers like BitInstant. When they "accept" your bitcoin, they never touch the e-currency at all, only USD from the exchanger. Even then, it's generally such a hassle and expense for such a low volume of transactions that it's really only a PR stunt.

Hmm, given the velocity of swings in bitcoin valuation, how does a retailer accepting bitcoins properly hedge itself against those swings? I've seen a lot of swap contracts in the day job but I've yet to see one denominated in bitcoins.

Bitcoin vs. LIBOR (the standard external rate for swap contracts). I've got to go to work, but a correlation chart in the changes of the two (use 1 MO LIBOR) would be interesting.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20206
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:28 am

Captain Ned wrote:Hmm, given the velocity of swings in bitcoin valuation, how does a retailer accepting bitcoins properly hedge itself against those swings? I've seen a lot of swap contracts in the day job but I've yet to see one denominated in bitcoins.


On the Silk Road, the Dread Pirate Roberts personally guaranteed the difference. :wink:

Right now, at least for BitPay, the exchanger does. Like I said, the retailer that "accepts" bitcoin never actually touches bitcoin itself. They have a price in USD, and they see revenue in USD. It is solely the exchanger that handles the bitcoin aspect of it.

As I've said, the real question is what exactly it is that the exchangers are doing, and that isn't remotely as clear. With all the influxes of capital (BitPay has Peter Thiel behind it) behind the exchangers, one has to wonder just what's really going on...
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7844
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:38 am

Glorious wrote:As I've said, the real question is what exactly it is that the exchangers are doing, and that isn't remotely as clear. With all the influxes of capital (BitPay has Peter Thiel behind it) behind the exchangers, one has to wonder just what's really going on...

Hence the great regulatory interest in the exchanges and our desire to get them into the regulatory structure so that we can start asking some pointed questions.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20206
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:43 pm

Glorious wrote:This is precisely why Mt.Gox has a two year waiting list for regular folk who want to sell bitcoin (but yet you can buy bitcoin with USD immediately): There are hordes of small-timers trying to cash out but can't. Why? Because they are entirely supplanted by the big-timers (proven to exist by the block-chain) who get first dibs at grabbing the buyers. And since the big-timers have such an enormous hoard of bitcoin, the demand is entirely met.


Sir, I'm sorry to say this, but you have no idea what you are talking about. There is no waiting list. I and a co-worker signed up at MTGOX about three months ago and two months ago, respectively, and after about a week of submitting and having documents "verified", we were free to buy and sell BTC, and deposit and withdraw dollars.

The real "scam" at MTGOX is that there is a prohibitively high minimum withdrawal for USD and a high fee. This can be explained by MTGOX being based in a Japanese bank.

I personally have placed buy and sell orders at market rates and had them fulfilled. No big fish came into the scenario at all.

Were you thinking of some other exchange?
Siglessness is boring.
Image - M4800-Eight1
Image - Vargr-Z97
Forge
Lord High Gerbil
 
Posts: 8010
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2001 7:00 pm
Location: SouthEast PA

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:13 pm

Forge wrote:Sir, I'm sorry to say this, but you have no idea what you are talking about. There is no waiting list. I and a co-worker signed up at MTGOX about three months ago and two months ago, respectively, and after about a week of submitting and having documents "verified", we were free to buy and sell BTC, and deposit and withdraw dollars.

The real "scam" at MTGOX is that there is a prohibitively high minimum withdrawal for USD and a high fee. This can be explained by MTGOX being based in a Japanese bank.

I personally have placed buy and sell orders at market rates and had them fulfilled. No big fish came into the scenario at all.

Were you thinking of some other exchange?


What you are telling me contradicts numerous different sources, many (if not most) of which are actually pro-bitcoin.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-11/07/mtgox

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7064/with-cu ... 22-months/

bitcoinmagazine wrote:What does this imply about current requests for withdrawals? There are 12 weeks between mid June and today (September 16th). Thus one would expect a withdrawal request submitted today to be processed in 8 x 12 = 96 weeks, or around June 2015. Now clearly a lot can happen between now and June 2015. Mt. Gox keeps stating that they are working with banking partners and expect things to improve soon. Of course, they’ve been stating that since June.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179586.2820

a post from 2 weeks ago wrote:Half a year, six months, more than 180 days and dozens of mails to 'support' for a **** 900€ withdrawal.

Ah, and they refuse to cancel my withdrawal too, they said the withdrawal has been processed from their part, but as you can see on the image the status is pending and i have not received a single penny.


Hilariously:

another post from only 2 weeks ago wrote:This is unusual. Normally withdrawals languish for weeks and months as "confirmed" which means nothing more than you successfully clicked on the "ok" button to start the process. Hence they can be reversed.


Normally? :o :roll:

more of the same wrote:"1000$ withdrawed 12.10.2013. Money still not arrived."
don't worry you need 9 months more this withdraw because they are taking almost 1 year for each withdraw and you have only 3 months


Remember, these guys are bitcoin enthusiasts.


Just read the thread.


EDIT: The real question is not anything you said, but whether or not you could successfully move real currency out of their system. Because "Buying" and "Selling" *within* their system is ultimately meaningless. I can't actually sell bitcoin until I receive real currency in my real hands, which I thought the context of my comments made clear. I am entirely uninterested in whether or not I can "sell" bitcoin and receive an internal credit on their exchange. That isn't a "sale" in my mind, and it probably shouldn't be in yours either.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7844
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:35 pm

So I took a gander at the Mt.GOX FAQ for withdrawals/deposits:

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21649 ... d-Deposits

There are only two mentions of ways to deal with USD:

Mt.GOX wrote:OKPAY (CHF, EUR, GBP, RUB, USD)

* Deposits : To do so, please login, go to your Funding Options, and select OKPAY in the drop down menu.
You will need a OKPAY account to deposit via this method.
There is a 1% fee for all deposits made via OKPAY.

* Withdrawals : Not available due to Okpay new policy as of May 29, 2013.


Astropay (USD) : Argentina, Brasil, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Peru, and Uruguay

* Deposits (only)

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/23448 ... d-AstroPay


So... Mt.GOX itself is openly stating that they're willing to take your USD, but that they can't actually get any of it back to you?

Just look at what they state as general policy!

Mt.GOX wrote:• There is no limit to the deposit of currency into a MtGox account.

• The amount of currency that you can withdraw depends upon whether your account is verified or trusted.


WTF? They'll take your money without question, but if you want any of it back, whoa there cowboy, are you properly verified?

Isn't this, like, a classic "Problem?" Trollface scenario?

Or maybe *I'm* crazy.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7844
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:43 pm

It may be sleazy, but other online finance houses like Paypal have similar rules. I have about twenty bucks locked up on a temporary PP account because they decided that some credentials associated with a MoneyPak that I paid cash for didn't match what was on file. Sweet deal for them...
NovusBogus
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:37 am

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:16 pm

NovusBogus wrote:It may be sleazy, but other online finance houses like Paypal have similar rules. I have about twenty bucks locked up on a temporary PP account because they decided that some credentials associated with a MoneyPak that I paid cash for didn't match what was on file. Sweet deal for them...


I'm not talking about bogus/overzealous holds for "fraud" prevention, I am saying that numerous people are claiming on bitcoin forums that it is essentially impossible for anyone to withdraw USD from Mt.Gox and that this has been the case for several months.

And when official Mt.Gox materials freely state that deposits are "A-ok" but that withdrawals are a hard "maybe?", shouldn't that be a major cause for concern?

As I've said, if regular folk have significant difficulty getting bitcoin exchanged into tangible USD, that raises a LOT of questions for companies like Bitpay that are doing exactly that on demand for numerous retailers.

Something is seriously wrong with that picture, and when experienced regulatory officials like Captain Ned concur, how crazy can I be?
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7844
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:30 pm

It would certainly explain why the BTC price hasn't tanked--I've been wondering why all the speculators didn't cut their losses and flee when the exchange price dropped 30% in a matter of hours.

My guess on the moneychangers is that they're burning through said capital on the handful of transactions actually being made, thinking--like everyone else involved--that they should hoard as much as they can as fast as they can without asking too many questions. Eventually someone will go to the well and find out the well's dry, and then things will get very interesting.
NovusBogus
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:37 am

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:52 am

Ok, now I see where you were coming from. You've run together a few largely unrelated data points, though.

Anyone can sign up for an account. There is no waiting list for that.

Anyone can convert any deposited funds from one currency to another, including BTC/USD and vice versa. No waiting lists here, either.

You can no longer withdraw via OKPay. You can not withdraw via Astropay either. These were the waiting lists. They had those waiting lists because they kept getting their funds held, frozen, or blocked, yet after they broke away from BTC-USD transfers, suddenly it's all OK again! No interference there.

The part your search did not turn up is bank transfers. I don't have a balance on my account at MTGOX right now, but if I did, I could withdraw via bank transfer, no waiting beyond the usual multi-day transfer delays that any bank to bank transfer have. Being an international transfer, the fees are rather high, high enough, in fact, that transfers under 250$ or so are pointless, and thus not allowed. Making a 50$ transfer with a 49.99$ international wire fee attached would be stupid, are we agreed?

So, basically, you are right, I am right, and the wording we both used wasn't clear.

There was a waiting list for withdrawals. This is old info, tied to the previous international USD transfer agencies listed above, and which led to their current statuses. There is no waiting list for bank transfers, but they're not practical for small transfers.

Further, the reason it's very hard to almost impossible to convert BTC to USD has nothing to do with BTC itself and everything to do with USD, in particular the government and financial agencies that control most USD. They don't want to have any demonstrable paper trail connecting USD to BTC, so it's ugly and convoluted, and anyone who can be proven to allow BTC<->USD conversion quickly gets run out of business. What I don't understand is why this is often presented as some sort of failing on BTC's part.
Siglessness is boring.
Image - M4800-Eight1
Image - Vargr-Z97
Forge
Lord High Gerbil
 
Posts: 8010
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2001 7:00 pm
Location: SouthEast PA

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:38 am

Forge wrote:Ok, now I see where you were coming from. You've run together a few largely unrelated data points, though.


I think it is more we have different concerns, like you were saying.

I'm attacking the sustainability, even in the short-term, of the exchangers like BitPay andBitInstant. Their business model exist on *immediate*(< 15 minutes) transactions for amounts significantly less than 250 USD. For instance, Overstock.com claimed 126k USD in 840 transactions on its first day of using BitPay. That's a ~150 USD average.

The question is, how are they doing that without *any* underlying market for that kind of transaction?

Forge wrote:Further, the reason it's very hard to almost impossible to convert BTC to USD has nothing to do with BTC itself and everything to do with USD, in particular the government and financial agencies that control most USD. They don't want to have any demonstrable paper trail connecting USD to BTC, so it's ugly and convoluted, and anyone who can be proven to allow BTC<->USD conversion quickly gets run out of business. What I don't understand is why this is often presented as some sort of failing on BTC's part.


This is definitely true, but that's why I am wondering so much about exchangers like BitPay.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7844
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:24 am

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-authoriti ... ector.html
Russian Prosecutor General's Office wrote: "Citizens and legal entities risk being drawn - even unintentionally - into illegal activity, including laundering of money obtained through crime, as well as financing terrorism."
i7-4770K, H70, Gryphon Z87, 16 GiB, R9-290, SSD, 2 HD, Blu-ray, SB ZX, TJ08-E, SS-660XP², 3007WFP+2001FP, RK-9000BR, MX518
JustAnEngineer
Gerbil God
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 15397
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:52 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Russian Prosecutor General's Office wrote: "Citizens and legal entities risk being drawn - even unintentionally - into illegal activity, including laundering of money obtained through crime, as well as financing terrorism."


Yes, everyone should get clear of the American dollar and stay well clear for similar reasons. Before there was Bitcoin, American Dollars were involved in some fashion with nearly 99% of crime in America!

Slanted stats not true according to plumb bob and bubble level, film at 11!!
Siglessness is boring.
Image - M4800-Eight1
Image - Vargr-Z97
Forge
Lord High Gerbil
 
Posts: 8010
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2001 7:00 pm
Location: SouthEast PA

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:45 pm

Forge wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
Russian Prosecutor General's Office wrote: "Citizens and legal entities risk being drawn - even unintentionally - into illegal activity, including laundering of money obtained through crime, as well as financing terrorism."


Yes, everyone should get clear of the American dollar and stay well clear for similar reasons. Before there was Bitcoin, American Dollars were involved in some fashion with nearly 99% of crime in America!

Slanted stats not true according to plumb bob and bubble level, film at 11!!


I really don't understand the whole money laundering scare with cryptocurrencies. Hard cash is much more difficult to trace than bitcoins, and doesn't leave a history of transactions since that block was first generated. Because it leave a history, and if you can attribute a wallet address to a organization or a person, it's pretty easy to follow the money trail, and that history never goes away. With cash that is impossible. The best you can do is tag certain serial numbers to be associated with robberies etc. The silk road prosecution is having a much easier time tracing the history of transactions because it's all there in the block chain data and they know which addresses belong to which defendant. Yeah it is no where as easy to track as credit card transactions but it is hell of a lot easier than cash.

Well people are just afraid of what they don't understand, and the number of people who really understand cryptocurrencies are in the minority. Criminals will still use cold hard cash or precious metals because that is just the "better" option.
CB5000
Gerbil XP
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: NW region

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:17 pm

Actually, real cash DOES leave a trail when exchanged in quantities large enough to effect a laundering operation. The bills themselves are anonymous, but all hard currency starts with the Federal Reserve and circulates through banks, ATMs, business accounts, etc. A successful operation has to be organized with some fairly careful thought in order to avoid raising suspicion.

Rather like a marijuana grow house that goes to great lengths to conceal the visual signs of operation by blacking out the basement windows and arranging growing supplies and product drops under the cover of a weekly bulk shopping trip, and then gets busted because a residential meter leading to a 1200 sq-ft ranch home is somehow spinning 1050 kW-h in a month.
He who laughs last, laughs first next time.
ludi
Gerbil Elder
 
Posts: 5427
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:47 pm
Location: Sunny Colorado front range

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:24 pm

SS4 wrote:Hey guys, some ppl like to fold protein or search for Extraterrestrial life with their spare CPU and GPU power but i wanted to try bitcoin mining myself.
I don't expect to get rich or anything but it seems interesting.

So what program would you recommend for mining (can i mine with both the CPU and GPU at once?)
By the way im in Canada, i know different country have different laws regarding bitcoin.

So if someone could just give me some tips and in a nutshell outlines whats the best way to proceed and the risks involved with trading bitcoin for cash down the line.
Seems you can somewhat play stocks with them in a way too.

Anyways, thx for the info in advance, i appreciate it.

Bitcoin have value worldwide, so even if some governments block it, others will not do that, so it will have some value.

But today is late to mine a significant ammount of bitcoin with GPU. Much more powerful mininng is obtained with fpga, and that means that GPUs no more mine enough bitcoins to cover the hardware cost.

Nonetheless, bitcoin surely will raise in value some undertermined time in the future, so probably it would be worth if you wait enough time.

Today is cheaper to just buy bitcoins that to mine it. A journalist (Norwegian Kristoffer Koch ) bought 17 dollars in bitcoin years ago, just for investigation purposes, and recently found that his bitcoins, wich were forgotten on some file, are worth half a million.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... 1-000.html

If you buy bitcoins today, there is the possibility that it falls in value in short time. But looks like a great investment if you wait a long time.
marraco
Gerbil
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:58 pm

ludi wrote:Actually, real cash DOES leave a trail when exchanged in quantities large enough to effect a laundering operation.

Here in the US, if your SSN or Tax ID # flows over $10,000 of cash (gross flow, adding deposits, withdrawals, exchanges, any passing of currency to/from) through a single financial institution in the same business day, said institution MUST file a Currency Transaction Report (CTR) with the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) through their on-line portal in Detroit. A good chunk of my day job when at a depository institution revolves around analyzing and assessing said institution's ability to aggregate currency flows by SSN/TIN over what may be a multi-state branch network and to do so on a daily basis. Once that $10,000 currency threshold is passed in a given business day, you've got 15 CALENDAR days to get that CTR filed.

Failure to properly comply with the laws/regs around CTRs, Bank Secrecy Act/Anti-Money Laundering (BSA/AML) and the filing of Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) for transactions (be they cash or check) that simply do not make sense based on a depositor's past history (or look like attempts to avoid CTR filing thresholds) will have your executives facing criminal charges and paying huge fines. I think HSBC still holds the record, paying $1.92 BILLION in late 2012 to resolve BSA/AML failures occurring over a multiple-year period.

Oh, if you bring over $10,000 in cash to your bank (or withdraw more than that in cash) and, once asked for all the ID information needed to complete the CTR suddenly change your mind, stop the transaction, and walk out the door that's an automatic SAR filing per the black letter of the regs. The FBI really looks over each and every SAR filing.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/ ... laundering

[/day job]
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20206
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:02 pm

marraco wrote:
SS4 wrote:Hey guys, some ppl like to fold protein or search for Extraterrestrial life with their spare CPU and GPU power but i wanted to try bitcoin mining myself.
I don't expect to get rich or anything but it seems interesting.

So what program would you recommend for mining (can i mine with both the CPU and GPU at once?)
By the way im in Canada, i know different country have different laws regarding bitcoin.

So if someone could just give me some tips and in a nutshell outlines whats the best way to proceed and the risks involved with trading bitcoin for cash down the line.
Seems you can somewhat play stocks with them in a way too.

Anyways, thx for the info in advance, i appreciate it.

Bitcoin have value worldwide, so even if some governments block it, others will not do that, so it will have some value.

But today is late to mine a significant ammount of bitcoin with GPU. Much more powerful mininng is obtained with fpga, and that means that GPUs no more mine enough bitcoins to cover the hardware cost.



FPGAs are out too. Now most of the mining is done with ASIC 55 nm and 28 nm chips and the earliest you can guy some at decent speeds is for a May 2014 preorder. You can buy bitfury and ASIC miner chips but they are not worth the hardware cost and power usage.

Most people using GPU's are mining SCRYPT currencies like litecoins. At the moment the return on investment is a bit slim, but it's better than trying to mine bitcoins with GPU's.
CB5000
Gerbil XP
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: NW region

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:48 pm

marraco wrote:Bitcoin have value worldwide, so even if some governments block it, others will not do that, so it will have some value.

US dollars are also good worldwide. The USD exchange rate also isn't nearly as volatile as the Bitcoin exchange rate. (Bitcoin's volatility can be either a bug or a feature, depending on whether you're actually trying to use them as a legitimate medium of exchange or just speculating.)
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37659
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:34 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/bitcoin-plunges-m ... ector.html
Sam Forgione, Reuters wrote: On the Mt. Gox platform the currency plunged to as low as $500 early on Monday, down more than 27 percent from Friday's final price of $692, according to the Mt. Gox website. The price had topped $1,000 as recently as late January.

Mt. Gox said withdrawals were on hold indefinitely after it "has detected unusual activity on its bitcoin wallets and performed investigations during the past weeks. This confirmed the presence of transactions which need to be examined more closely." Mt. Gox said a "bug in the bitcoin software" could allow transaction details to be altered. In effect, someone on the network could alter transaction details to make it appear a transfer of bitcoins from one digital wallet to another had not occurred when in fact it had. This might cause the transfer to be repeated.

Mt. Gox said the issue was not limited to the exchange and "affects all transactions where bitcoins are being sent to a third party." It said the withdrawal suspension would be in effect until the issue has been resolved.
i7-4770K, H70, Gryphon Z87, 16 GiB, R9-290, SSD, 2 HD, Blu-ray, SB ZX, TJ08-E, SS-660XP², 3007WFP+2001FP, RK-9000BR, MX518
JustAnEngineer
Gerbil God
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 15397
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:49 pm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e16831445/
Investigators then checked to see if Espinoza’s name appeared on the Florida Office of Financial Regulation or the United States Treasury Department’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FINCEN) databases to determine if he was registered as a money service business as required by both state and federal law. But when those queries failed to return a positive result, the investigators arranged for further transactions in order to net harsher charges against Espinoza. After another transaction occurred in late January worth $500, the undercover agent said he wanted to buy $30,000 worth of bitcoin “to be used for an illicit transaction concerning credit card fraud,” according to the affidavit. “During the meeting, conversation ensued describing that the bitcoins were to be used to purchase a new batch of credit card numbers from a recent data breach,” the official report says. When Espinoza agreed to participate in the deal, he was taken into custody.


The undercover agent claimed the bitcoins being transferred would be used to purchase illegally obtained credit card numbers, this time from the batch compromised late last year in the high-profile breach against American retailer Target. Reid agreed to sell $30,000 worth of bitcoins to the officer and was shortly after taken into custody.


http://rt.com/usa/bitcoin-florida-laund ... rrest-431/
Nicholas Weaver wrote: “Criminals have to buy their bitcoin using some anonymous method. Thus it is natural to expect law enforcement to continue to focus on anonymous transactions used to buy and sell significant quantities of bitcoin.”



http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/12/bitc ... egulators/
Matthew Rhoades wrote: “With a fluctuating price driven by speculators and an uncertain legal regime, Bitcoin’s viability as a consumer currency is still up in the air.”
i7-4770K, H70, Gryphon Z87, 16 GiB, R9-290, SSD, 2 HD, Blu-ray, SB ZX, TJ08-E, SS-660XP², 3007WFP+2001FP, RK-9000BR, MX518
JustAnEngineer
Gerbil God
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 15397
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Would like some more details on bitcoin and mining

Postposted on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:13 am

Don't say I haven't told you all since about 2 minutes after BitCoin became a topic here at TR.

[/day job]
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20206
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

PreviousNext

Return to The Back Porch

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests