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@clone - IOW it doesn't take drugs or alcohol to make people behave in a reckless manner. Some people are just predisposed to reckless behavior, even when sober.

slowriot wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

http://ll-media.tmz.com/2013/11/30/1130-paul-walker-accident-scene-car-facebook-3.jpg

This is what happens when unqualified drivers play boy racer.

Both the driver and Paul Walker had significant experience in racing. This was a tragic accident and It's disgusting people like you feel the need to disparage the dead.

Part of being "qualified" is having the intelligence to use your skills appropriately. The driver may have been skilled; but he was still driving at over 100mph in an office park, he lost control, and his actions resulted in the death of himself and a passenger. It's fortunate that nobody else was killed.

If any average person did this, they'd be rightly condemned for being stupid. Frankly, the fact that this guy was a professional driver makes his actions even more stupid than if he was an average nobody.

dltd.

clone wrote:

the drugs thing was a part of the coroners comment and had nothing to do with me, actually you responded while I was deleting that part along with the rest of the fluff that I didn't consider relevant.

I raced for 15 years and no drugs aren't required to go fast, balls, logic and a focus are typically all that's required.

I wasn't intending to be disparaging towards you or your post, it was just general commentary.

dltd.

clone wrote:

the tragedy is in how the accident affects the families of both, I feel bad for Paul Walkers dad given the interviews he's given he seems to be suffering.

A parent should not outlive their children. I hope that I never get to experience that. (I have three kids.)

clone wrote:

If any average person did this, they'd be rightly condemned for being stupid. Frankly, the fact that this guy was a professional driver makes his actions even more stupid than if he was an average nobody.

yes and no, everybody likes to get preachy and assume a moral high ground when situations like this happen.

I really don't think it has anything to do with any moral high ground. They were clearly driving far too fast for an office complex parking lot, as evidenced by the fact that they lost control of the vehicle and the massive damage done on impact. That, in my opinion, is a stupid thing to be doing. ::shrug::

It's sad that they died - it's sad when anyone dies before their time. But the driver is ultimately responsible for his own actions.

1st off this car in the parking lot thing appeared to be some kind of event...... if it was anything like the Lexus event a friend of mine went too then you probably shouldn't judge so harshly.

According to every report I've seen, it happened after a fundraising event that had nothing to do with driving a car at 100mph through that particular parking lot.

they'd been driving for a while and had gotten warmed up to the track as it was laid out, the Porsche was being problematic and it was decided after some discussion that a 2nd set of eyes would go along to compare notes, again I'm just going off the discussion that was had just prior but it seems reasonable enough, this wasn't so much a joy ride as a test ride. were they driving too fast for the location... sure. actually I suspect Rodas tried to drive through the issue to see how bad it was.

Right. So these professional drivers decided to drive a car - that was already showing handling problems - at over 100mph in an office park. Without disparaging these folks... does that seem wise to you?

If I go out to my car in the morning and I see a great big bulge on the side of my tire and decide, what the hell, I'm still going to get on the expressway and drive at highway speeds... if my tire blows and it causes a crash, that would be my fault. Because I would have ignored an obvious safety issue. And I'm not even a professional driver.

These guys took a car that they knew wasn't handling properly, and they drove it at speeds that would have been unsafe even without a handling problem, in a location that wasn't suited for that kind of driving. That's not smart; it's utterly irresponsible.

dltd.

clone wrote:

So these professional drivers decided to drive a car - that was already showing handling problems - at over 100mph in an office park. Without disparaging these folks... does that seem wise to you?

while 100mph seems fast to someone who hasn't spent quite a bit of time above it, in truth it's not half so shocking as you want to imply.

Having spent perhaps an hour over that speed, I can tell you it's plain nuts, even with a killer car, to do that in a confined space. Having retrieved cars from 360s at well over 100 mph I do know whereof I speak.

clone wrote:

I really don't think it has anything to do with any moral high ground.

you do realize you followed this comment with judgements and preaching right?

Judgement of the intelligence (or lack thereof) of his decision to engage in reckless behavior has nothing to do with morality.

According to every report I've seen, it happened after a fundraising event that had nothing to do with driving a car at 100mph through that particular parking lot.

actually it would depend on the event and apparently their were a number of exotic cars at it.

No, it really wouldn't depend on that at all. The fact that you're at an event with exotic cars doesn't excuse irresponsible behavior; nor does it change the laws of physics.

could it be possible ppl were paying to drive them with the proceeds going to..... charity?

No; because the people who initially appeared on the scene - friends of the two of them, who were at the charity event - said that the two of them were just joyriding. And even if someone was paying them to drive over 100pmh in a parking lot, that still doesn't make it a good idea.

Right. So these professional drivers decided to drive a car - that was already showing handling problems - at over 100mph in an office park. Without disparaging these folks... does that seem wise to you?

while 100mph seems fast to someone who hasn't spent quite a bit of time above it, in truth it's not half so shocking as you want to imply.

Regardless of how much time you (claim to) have spent driving at whatever speeds, the fact remains that it is irresponsible to drive at those speeds in a parking lot, and in a car that you believe isn't handling properly in the first place.

to be clear I do agree they made a mistake and that was unfortunate.

Then we are agreed.

If I go out to my car in the morning and I see a great big bulge on the side of my tire.....

then yes you'd be a fool but we aren't talking about a bulging tire, and you aren't an experienced race driver, which is why you tried to use a bulging tire as a comparison.

The bulging tire is an example of an obvious problem that would make driving at highway speeds an irresponsible thing to do.

it doesn't apply,

Because you say so?

I'm quite certain neither felt the issue was potentially dangerous like say.... a broken belt would be that's causing the tire to bulge. did they make a mistake, absolutely. were either of them stupid ppl, doubtful..... it was an accident and neither you nor I have enough info to judge.

Actually I have plenty of information. I have pictures of a car turned into a twisted pile of burned up metal in an office complex parking lot. That tells me that whoever was driving the car was driving way too fast for an office complex parking lot. Your entire argument, such that it is, seems to be that there must be some good reason for them to have been driving like that; but no such reason exists.

while 100mph seems fast to someone who hasn't spent quite a bit of time above it, in truth it's not half so shocking as you want to imply.

yeah, its not the speed, but the abrupt stop that causes the problem...

oh snap,right..., they experienced that, didn't they?

dltd.

clone wrote:

"reckless" is judging, preaching.
"irresponsible" is also preaching, judging......,
that said really? a possible charity event involving allowing ppl driving exotic cars around a pre determined course doesn't change anything? the Lexus event which was held in a parking lot is my rebuttal.

The eyewitness reports from their friends who said that they weren't on a predetermined course, and that it wasn't part of the event, is my rebuttal to your rebuttal. Sorry, but the fact that you believe it's possible that they were on some kind of track doesn't make it so. The difference between the Lexus events that you're talking about, and this, is that for the Lexus events, the tracks are planned out. They make sure there is adequate space around the course to account for loss of control. They make sure that there aren't any obstacles - like steel poles for example - that would be hit in the event that someone loses control.

That is the difference between responsible and irresponsible.

Actually I have plenty of information. I have pictures of a car turned into a twisted pile of burned up metal in an office complex parking lot. That tells me that whoever was driving the car was driving way too fast for an office complex parking lot. Your entire argument, such that it is, seems to be that there must be some good reason for them to have been driving like that; but no such reason exists.

you have nothing. a car turned into a twisted pile is not proof of a poor decision. something happened at 100mph, what, why, how?

The poor decision was driving that fast in a parking lot. Regardless of why the driver lost control - whether it was driver error, a flaw in the car, or something on the track - the reason the crash was as horrific as it was is directly a result of the SPEED they were driving.

If someone jumps off the Golden Gate Bridge, that's a bad decision. It remains a bad decision no matter what their motivation was for doing so.

dltd.

clone wrote:

by your logic, the act of jumping out of a perfectly functional airplane is always a horrible idea yet I've done it several times as do thousands of others every day.

Strawman. When you jump out of an airplane flown by professional/experienced jumpers and are wearing a 'chute packed by same, you are jumping in the proper milieu. If an accident happens it's tragic, but not stupid. If you're jumping out of a plane flown by some yokel who just wants gas money and you've packed your own 'chute for the first time with no one checking on your work, you've made the same decision Walker and the driver did but have yet to earn the consequences. If you're a BASE jumper it's not if, but when.

Why have you spent so many posts failing to accept the notion that the choices they made at that moment were bad choices that came back to kill them? Why do you keep making excuses for their actions? None of us are rejoicing in the deaths, just pointing out the utter and needless stupidity that caused them. When your death is essentially a "hold my beer, watch this" event there are no excuses, yet you keep concocting same for any scenario put forward.

And yes, I have jumped. Once. In 1985. Static line with a round 'chute. Solo (different world back in '85). Needed 1 gym credit to graduate Uni and the jump was an afternoon compared to 40 or so games of bowling in the campus alley in the Senior Week tradition of Bowling for Diplomas. Some seniors bowled hundreds of games to get their diplomas. I never need visit that terror again. Hitting the ground under a round 'chute hurts, no matter how much you tuck 'n' roll.

Captain Ned wrote:

Why have you spent so many posts failing to accept the notion that the choices they made at that moment were bad choices that came back to kill them? Why do you keep making excuses for their actions? None of us are rejoicing in the deaths, just pointing out the utter and needless stupidity that caused them. When your death is essentially a "hold my beer, watch this" event there are no excuses, yet you keep concocting same for any scenario put forward.

You hit it on the head Ned. When some one does something stupid and pays a heavy price for it there is always an up cry that it was some one else at fault. There is always the push to blame some one, any one, else. What ever happened to taking responsibility for your actions?

Everything I have read points to one conclusion in this case. This was a "Hey Bubba, watch this!" moment and it tragically ended in needless death.

dltd.

There's no doubt that what the driver did was stupid, whether Paul knew that the driver would be pushing it that hard who knows? I bet you he wasn't expecting to go out suddenly like that, just like how you might not expect calamity when slightly speeding or rushing a changing traffic light. I doubt anyone can say they never took a risk before. It's terribly sad to see such a caring charitable guy go out so young, he was a really good guy and did a lot more than most will ever do.

1: because I don't believe the choices were stupid, 2: because I know everyone in the world has made mistakes in one form or another and it bothers me greatly when others who know nothing of the specifics will immediately wrap it into a nice tidy package and call it stupidity.

they weren't stupid, I suspect they like everyone else in the world made a mistake.

Your entire argument comes down to:

We are all human, and we all die, and mostly in stupid human ways.

Well, I buy that. But I don't have any problem with people calling it out when they see it either.

You seem to want it both ways.

Yeah, they broke the laws of man and nature and paid the ultimate price; but it is really rude to have people point that out when discussing their death.

Really?

pick one side to defend. You can't have both!!

clone wrote:

my boss used to rag on me about how fast I rode my bikes, he talked about how 2 of his friends went out one night and drove their car into.... I don't know something. anyway they hit so hard and violently that the driveshaft went thought the passenger.

Ugh. You still don't get it and likely never will. When you put yourself in a situation where this could happen it's no longer an excusable mistake. Mistakes are something you survive and learn from to prevent you from repeating the stupidity that you dodged in your "mistake" event. If you repeat the same behaviour that brought on the "mistake", it's stupidity.

It's obvious that your really liked Paul Walker and don't want to grok that his death was more than a mistake but was, in fact, an event of stupidity. It may take time, but you will one day grok this. Hopefully you will grok this before you do something similar.

Figured I'd give the definition since I'm an old fart.

Wow, I had not seen the term grok used in years. I almost forgot about it.

Khali wrote:

Wow, I had not seen the term grok used in years. I almost forgot about it.

Wasn't there at the beginning (1961), but was around for the first restoration in the mid/late '70s (50 is 18 days away, and several of my HS teachers were serious stoners). I've used it for so long that it's become natural to me and it would take me way too many words to explain otherwise. IOW, I grok grok.

[/commence massive recursion event]

just brew it! wrote:

clone wrote:

the tragedy is in how the accident affects the families of both, I feel bad for Paul Walkers dad given the interviews he's given he seems to be suffering.

A parent should not outlive their children. I hope that I never get to experience that. (I have three kids.)

Reading this sent a shiver in my spin - hope to never ever experience that (I have one daughter)

dltd.

clone wrote:

the life jacket, which he demanded his son wear. sure enough he succumbed to the cold and sank into the lake to be found a few days later.

very unfortunate, tragic and no he wasn't stupid.

Damn right it was stupid. You don't go out on a body of water in a boat without life vests for ALL passengers. It's the law for a reason.

by your logic, the act of jumping out of a perfectly functional airplane is always a horrible idea yet I've done it several times as do thousands of others every day.

Tell me something... on one of these occasions, if someone in the plane announced that hey, this time we're going to jump over a large city during rush hour, or over packed amusement park, or right above Niagara Falls; would you still do it? Or, like most rational people, would you think that maybe those places aren't the best places to be jumping out of an airplane? That maybe the time and place of an activity might have some bearing on the safety of the activity?

Because that is the point that you keep missing. Nobody is saying that really driving fast, in and of itself, is a horrible idea. We're saying that driving really fast, in a parking lot, in a car that you suspect might not be handling properly, is a horrible idea. Why? Because if you lose control of the car, there is a much greater chance that you're going to slam into something and die, or slam into someone else and kill them, or both.

Deciding to take a group of skydivers over a large city during rush hour and having them jump would be stupid and irresponsible. Because the odds of someone getting seriously hurt or killed - both for the jumpers and for the people on the ground - is significantly increased. Because even if the activity itself carries an acceptable risk, the time and place would seriously increase that risk.

The same is true for driving at racing speeds.

Regarding your friend with the boat... as sad as it is that he died, going out on a small craft in high winds and frigid water without enough life vests is stupid. Your friend may not have been stupid, but his actions on that day were.

dltd.

I doubt you want to see my side but that's fine if you don't.

well, you just take a very fatalistic approach to life and death...
It is not unique to history of many cultures and many times.

Point of fact, it is really handy during times of war...

It just comes down to your definition of "stupid"

Again, people climb mountains all the time without regard to their odds.
I think K2 has something like a 30% fatality rate...

I get it that you think everything has risks...and parsing the exact risk comes across as judgmental.

This is where we disagree. If I make it a point to take what others consider unnecessary, reckless and poorly anticipated risks...well then I am not likely to be surprised if many people call me stupid.

It comes with the territory.

I don't say you don't have the right to make all these choices....

It just doesn't make any sense to "judge others" for not agreeing with you.

Okay, SOMEone has to go there, so:

Q.) What's the difference between this thread and Paul Walker?

ludi wrote:

Okay, SOMEone has to go there, so:

Q.) What's the difference between this thread and Paul Walker?

He died doing something stupid and this thread should die since all we are doing is arguing what stupid is with Clone who does not want to admit what his idol did was stupid to start with.