Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:28 am

slowriot wrote:
astrotech66 wrote:According to this article, the police say they were travelling 40-45 mph when they crashed. Apparently they came to a bend where the speed limit dropped to 15 mph.

http://www.nbcnews.com/entertainment/paul-walker-was-real-hero-daughter-heart-soul-his-charity-2D11683842


What do facts matter? Captain Ned's first post clearly indicated he knew nothing about the incident and yet felt it necessary to disparage the dead anyway. Even worse is those backing up that type of behavior. Is it really that crazy to not belittle someone who died in an incident you know virtually nothing about? I don't think it is and frankly I'm disgusted it seems to be encouraged in this thread.

1.) NBC news is not a trustworthy news source. It'd be more believable coming from something like a supermarket gossip rag.
Initial reports said the investigators were estimating 100MPH. From the crash pics alone, claiming it was 45mph seems very unlikely.
2.) Even if it was 45mph in a 15mph zone, it was still 30mph over the speed limit.
3.) The only reason you and some others care about Paul Walker is because he is famous. If a homeless guy had stolen a car and crashed doing exactly the same thing, it would make barely a blip on the news and none of you would care. If Paul Walker and his friend had hit and killed a homeless guy none of you would care about the homeless guy except to say "ah, tough break for that poor guy".
4.) No one is saying what happened wasn't tragic and sad.
But those who do not study history and understand risk factors are those who put themselves and more importantly others at risk.
5.) It is tragic and sad for the families of those involved just as it would be if it was anyone else. But it was an avoidable accident by simply abiding by the speed limit and that is all that is being pointed out.
Last edited by danny e. on Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:02 am

danny e. wrote:
slowriot wrote:
astrotech66 wrote:According to this article, the police say they were travelling 40-45 mph when they crashed. Apparently they came to a bend where the speed limit dropped to 15 mph.

http://www.nbcnews.com/entertainment/paul-walker-was-real-hero-daughter-heart-soul-his-charity-2D11683842


What do facts matter? Captain Ned's first post clearly indicated he knew nothing about the incident and yet felt it necessary to disparage the dead anyway. Even worse is those backing up that type of behavior. Is it really that crazy to not belittle someone who died in an incident you know virtually nothing about? I don't think it is and frankly I'm disgusted it seems to be encouraged in this thread.

1.) NBC news is not a trustworthy news source. It'd be more believable coming from something like a supermarket gossip rag.
Initial reports said the investigators were estimating 100MPH. From the crash pics alone, claiming it was 45mph seems very unlikely.
2.) Even if it was 45mph in a 15mph zone, it was still 30mph over the speed limit.
3.) The only reason you and some others care about Paul Walker is because he is famous. If a homeless guy had stolen a car and crashed doing exactly the same thing, it would make barely a blip on the news and none of you would care. If Paul Walker and his friend had hit and killed a homeless guy none of you would care about the homeless guy except to say "ah, tough break for that poor guy".
4.) No one is saying what happened wasn't tragic and sad.
But those who do not study history and understand risk factors are those who put themselves and more importantly others at risk.
5.) It is tragic and sad for the families of those involved just as it would be if it was anyone else. But it was an avoidable accident by simply abiding by the speed limit and that is all that is being pointed out.


Just to quick say, not trying to point fingers either or justify speeding. Paul was quite charitable and humble person. I never met him but from what others had told me and by just following him via social media, he seemed like a chill guy that loved sports and cars. A true enthusiast. Just because the car broke in half doesn't mean it had to be going fast. Many CF mid-engine supercars are meant to break and shatter as the properties of CF are not the same as steel or aluminium. Take this Aventador crash that split the car clean in half, upon viewing the video a car went left of center and caused the Lamborghini to spin, hit a pole, and break clean. Also his movies are not the only reason I care about him, he was a genuine car guy and owned many e36 BMWs, same years mine is. I am very curious to see if it was mechanical failure that led to the crash. Quick question to anyone in Cali. In Ohio corners we have yellow signs that will say a speed limit yet these are suggested signs and are very conservative. Does California have the same type of sign or similar? Suggested speed limit signs and not enforceable?
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:27 am

dltd.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:45 am

I only really enjoyed the first movie of the Fast and Furious franchise, but Paul Walker is still an icon when it comes to this sort of movies. His death was really abrupt. RIP, Paul Walker. I hope you're in a better place now.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:54 pm

just brew it! wrote:At this point nothing is certain.


Exactly. This is all you need to say. I don't understand the need for people to slander other's with zero facts and nothing but assumption. I don't get it at all.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:56 pm

Convert wrote:Ehhhhhh. Not defending anything or taking sides and I agree this is sad that it happened (especially due to his daughter being so young). However, I find it pretty hard to believe that they were doing the speed limit. I looked at quite a bit of photos and a video right after the crash when I first heard of this and the car was demolished prior to the fire completely destroying it. Also there were chunks of the curb missing and they went through a metal pole and then a small tree.


To be fair, the Carrera GT has nominal ground clearance of 3.4 inches, while the typical city curb is somewhere in the range of 4-6 inches. In a high-speed lateral slide with a conventional passenger car, the wheels and suspension mounting points will bend or break on impact and absorb most of the initial impact, ramping the chassis slightly airborn. The mass of the car will then slide over the top of the curb.

In this case, the car's entire sill rail probably struck the curb and the entire undercarriage would have been badly mangled as it passed over. Hence a complete dump of the fuel tank and resulting fireball. The force of such an impact may have been sufficient to break the engine mounts even before the car struck the light pole, helping to rip the chassis in the middle since that's where the engine was, and the light pole then finished the job. The speed necessary to achieve this may not have been triple digits, although it was obviously too fast for the corner.

That's all conjecture, but consistent with the final position and distribution of the wreckage.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:59 pm

with zero facts and nothing but assumption. I don't get it at all.


sorry, no.

many here have extensive background in physics and material science.

You can think the best of someone, but that doesn't change the laws of physics.

While carbon fiber is indeed brittle, it is insanely strong. There was a shed load of energy dissipated in that wreckage...these cars are NOT designed to self destruct in a 45mph crash.

these are facts, not assumptions.

My educated evaluation= easily over 100mph.

You have to understand that this car could go from reasonable (45-55mph) to insane (150mph) in mere seconds.

Was there some other mechanical malfunction? sure, that is a possibility.

But you are certainly willfully deluding yourself if you actually believe that speed was not an issue. :roll:
cross-editing. :wink:
EDIT:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/03/us/paul-walker-crash-car/

facts: 600 hp with no stability control
facts: local says that cars often drifted on this corner
fact: he knew the area /had a garage nearby...hence was not surprised by the 15mph curve.

Sorry again, if you think well of the person.

The fact is he knowingly took a high risk(many of us do) but his daughter will indeed pay the price for his judgement.
It is a very good idea to take object lessons from others mistakes.
It is not speaking bad about the dead, it is learning to help the living. :D

edit 2

regarding the split in half car:

The accident was apparently caused by a Mazda which started to go past the stop sign at a junction. The Lamborghini happened to be approaching at a high rate of speed and had to maneuver to get out of the way.


still a high rate of speed accident. yes, they will shatter to pieces when you hit the wall at 180mph and are designed to absorb the energy so the driver has a chance...but it is indeed designed to do this at high speeds, not 45mph fender benders. :wink:
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:37 pm

Can we dispense with the arguing over how it happened? We don't really know (yes, we have insight, but we don't know) what happened but we do know that people can be serious jerks. Let's just pretend they weren't and move on to the real topic: a tragic pair of deaths.

RIP Paul and Roger.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:52 pm

topic: a tragic pair of deaths.


tragic implies not avoidable by a reasonable person.

here is where we disagree.

words have meaning.

This is where people who believe in cause and affect, personal responsibility and accountability take a stand.

Is it sad? is it a poor outcome for his family? Is it something to learn from and avoid repeating...yes to all!

Was it predictable? was it an error or judgement? Was it a totally avoidable circumstance? Yes to all.

When you make informed choices about the risks you take, it is not a "tragic" circumstance.

perhaps prior postings were intentionally abrasive.

My guess is that they were on purpose; to point out the absurdity of giving a pass to poor judgement based on emotionalism.

We need to spend less time worrying about emotion and feelings, and more time looking at the cold hard realities of cause and effect. !!

Our actions have consequences, and all the good intentions in the world will not overcome this fact.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:18 pm

The F&F movies are a guilty pleasure of mine as they press all the appropriate man buttons (sex, fast cars, living a rogue's life, etc.). Shame that Mr. Walker won't be making any more of them. I don't get too terribly worked up when celebrities die though, regardless of the circumstances. Oh well.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:31 pm

mdk77777 wrote:
topic: a tragic pair of deaths.


tragic implies not avoidable by a reasonable person.

Tragic implies loss. The world is less rich after these deaths than before. I don't care if the driver had a lapse in judgement, it happens to everyone. He was just unlucky during his lapse in judgement.

Let's not get caught up in semantics please.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:32 pm

I don't get too terribly worked up when celebrities die though, regardless of the circumstances. Oh well.


yeah, I was a huge Kung Fu fan.
I actually used some moves for devastating results in playground fights just from watching...never practicing or martial arts instruction...

But when David Cardin died from auto-erotic asphyxiation...well, what are you going to say about that?
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:37 pm

ragic implies loss. The world is less rich after these deaths than before.

Let's not get caught up in semantics please.


The world will be even richer seeing the stupidity of throwing your life away in pointless extravagances.

Could he have done much more "good" if he were alive? sure! all the more reason to point out the self centered hedonism of taking stupid risks with your own and others' lives.

He was just unlucky during his lapse in judgement.


sorry, luck has nothing to do with it. He was "lucky" to have lived as long as he did given his willingness to take risks.

edit:I know, I have been there...I have survived a half dozen crashes that certainly could have been deadly. This does not obviate my responsibility to warn others. Exactly the opposite...there are no "accidents" only collisions that could have, should have been avoided!!!!
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:10 pm

mdk77777 wrote:

still a high rate of speed accident. yes, they will shatter to pieces when you hit the wall at 180mph and are designed to absorb the energy so the driver has a chance...but it is indeed designed to do this at high speeds, not 45mph fender benders. :wink:


Here is the video of the Aventador splitting half and one can clearly see that it is not even close to triple digits, yet still split in half after hitting the pole. If the video looks deceptive you can see how far the Lamborghini travels after point of impacting on the pole which isn't very far. When cars go into the triple digits with little in front of them, they travel for while. Not to argue what or who is responsible for the accident anymore I figured I would show how CF components change automobile accidents.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:13 pm

mdk77777 wrote: Exactly the opposite...there are no "accidents" only collisions that could have, should have been avoided!!!!

Right, because parts don't break.

We don't know the circumstances. Please stop arguing about them.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:25 pm

Not to argue what or who is responsible for the accident anymore I figured I would show how CF components change automobile accidents.


I agree that the car was designed to break in half (use of shear bolts makes obvious)
however, when you look at the resulting wreck, what do you see? two halves of a car in otherwise very good condition?

do you see drive trains and suspensions and wheels twisted and mangled into unrecognizable shapes?

yes fire distorts...but they are very, very different looking wrecks. :wink:
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:29 pm

ludi wrote:To be fair, the Carrera GT has nominal ground clearance of 3.4 inches, while the typical city curb is somewhere in the range of 4-6 inches. In a high-speed lateral slide with a conventional passenger car, the wheels and suspension mounting points will bend or break on impact and absorb most of the initial impact, ramping the chassis slightly airborn. The mass of the car will then slide over the top of the curb.

In this case, the car's entire sill rail probably struck the curb and the entire undercarriage would have been badly mangled as it passed over. Hence a complete dump of the fuel tank and resulting fireball. The force of such an impact may have been sufficient to break the engine mounts even before the car struck the light pole, helping to rip the chassis in the middle since that's where the engine was, and the light pole then finished the job. The speed necessary to achieve this may not have been triple digits, although it was obviously too fast for the corner.

That's all conjecture, but consistent with the final position and distribution of the wreckage.


I was wondering about the clearance thing but looking at the pictures it shows two perfect holes in the curb without any real apparent damage to the curb in between. Kinda strange.

Oddly enough I saw someone hit a curb doing ~60 just recently, this is what their rim looked like after: http://imageshack.com/a/img10/7012/xj4t.jpg This was more of a side impact (obviously) and all of the side airbags deployed. Kind of surprising sometimes just how safe cars are, you can do stuff like this to them and you might get a bruise from the airbag.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:32 pm

We don't know the circumstances. Please stop arguing about them.


yes we do. You have merely chosen suspension of reality.

I'll give the thread a break.

Time will prove that nothing happened here out of the obvious.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:35 pm

Waits for the readout from the black box (all recent Porsches have them) assuming the fire didn't destroy it. Given the diversity of interests on knowing the contents thereof (assuming it survived) I expect lots of litigation on this front.

It'll be a long wait.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:46 pm

mdk77777 wrote:yes we do. You have merely chosen suspension of reality.

No, no we don't. I'm done here as well.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:53 am

dltd.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:03 am

"This must be a difficult time for people who confuse TV actors with actual friends". It is estimated that 150,000 people die each day. I get it, 149,999 of those people didn't make a movie you enjoyed. But never the less, try and keep things in perspective.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:52 am

.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:44 pm

Speaking of closest fit.

His Dad seems to echo my comments pretty closely:

"The last conversation we had, I sat there, I looked at him and I said, 'You know, I love you very much. I love all of you. And we're all very, very close. If anything was to happen to anybody in this family, it would be a rough deal,'" Walker's father tells us.

"I said, 'Promise me, no more daredevil stuff.' I said, 'If in your heart, you say, I can do this, then by all means, do it. If your mind says, maybe not. Then don't.' I looked at him, I said, 'Will you promise me that?'"


http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/ent ... 5/b487648/

Avoiding stupid risks is how you avoid dying a pointless and "tragic" death.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:48 pm

danny e. wrote:
slowriot wrote:
astrotech66 wrote:According to this article, the police say they were travelling 40-45 mph when they crashed. Apparently they came to a bend where the speed limit dropped to 15 mph.

http://www.nbcnews.com/entertainment/paul-walker-was-real-hero-daughter-heart-soul-his-charity-2D11683842


What do facts matter? Captain Ned's first post clearly indicated he knew nothing about the incident and yet felt it necessary to disparage the dead anyway. Even worse is those backing up that type of behavior. Is it really that crazy to not belittle someone who died in an incident you know virtually nothing about? I don't think it is and frankly I'm disgusted it seems to be encouraged in this thread.

1.) NBC news is not a trustworthy news source. It'd be more believable coming from something like a supermarket gossip rag.
Initial reports said the investigators were estimating 100MPH. From the crash pics alone, claiming it was 45mph seems very unlikely.
2.) Even if it was 45mph in a 15mph zone, it was still 30mph over the speed limit.
3.) The only reason you and some others care about Paul Walker is because he is famous. If a homeless guy had stolen a car and crashed doing exactly the same thing, it would make barely a blip on the news and none of you would care. If Paul Walker and his friend had hit and killed a homeless guy none of you would care about the homeless guy except to say "ah, tough break for that poor guy".
4.) No one is saying what happened wasn't tragic and sad.
But those who do not study history and understand risk factors are those who put themselves and more importantly others at risk.
5.) It is tragic and sad for the families of those involved just as it would be if it was anyone else. But it was an avoidable accident by simply abiding by the speed limit and that is all that is being pointed out.

And so the final report states 100+MPH. Do the facts matter now, slowriot? No one here could go by anything other than the police reports and common sense based on the wreckage. It certainly always looked to be a speed issue and that is confirmed now.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... port-says/
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:05 pm

beat me to the post.

Reports indicate that they both had broken arms in a defensive posture.
In other words, the oh Sh*& moment when you know you are going to hit the wall going, way, way too fast and you put your arm up in a futile attempt to brace for impact.
You don't do this when a part malfunctions in normal driving. You are not expecting anything, you don't have time to react.

Oh course, no one who defends reckless actions and emotional response to situations is going to bother looking at these facts.
facts, and actual outcomes of detailed investigations are not important.
The moral superiority, the sense that good intentions are more important than good outcomes is much more important to these people.
It doesn't matter if we were right or not, our analysis was insensitive. :roll: :wink:
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:25 pm

danny e. wrote:And so the final report states 100+MPH. Do the facts matter now, slowriot? No one here could go by anything other than the police reports and common sense based on the wreckage. It certainly always looked to be a speed issue and that is confirmed now.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... port-says/


You're still proving my point but sadly missing it. As I mentioned several times it doesn't matter what happened, it does not give us the right to **** on these people. It does not give us the right to act like we all haven't violated traffic laws or reckless behavior. My initial reaction is entirely because Captain Ned made disparaging remarks specifically toward those who had lost their lives. Those type of remarks are entirely negative.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:38 pm

yeah, because implying that they were "unqualified" to break the law street racing...alluding to reckless action of youth "boy racing"...was so inaccurate and so baseless "disparaging"

You need to separate criticism of actions from attacks on people.

He clearly indicated that when you do A, you can expect B.

He did not attack the person, the race, the religion, the hair color, the age, the political affiliation of these people.

He did post that what happened should be a cautionary tale.

I am always amazed when people move from defending ideas and actions to making Ad hominem defense.

we don't know them. they are dead. we wish their family the best...Their actions were still criminal, put others at risk, and were a pointless waste.

As I mentioned several times it doesn't matter what happened


Yup. predicted that. :wink:
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:45 pm

slowriot wrote:My initial reaction is entirely because Captain Ned made disparaging remarks specifically toward those who had lost their lives. Those type of remarks are entirely negative.

And the initial assumption I'll freely admit I'd jumped to based on the original pictures has now been borne out by facts. The only reason they died is because the stupid gene took over. It was the stupid gene I sought to mock way back in my original post. Negative? That was intended. I have a hard time ignoring or excusing Darwin-level stupid just because the recently-deceased was a "good guy". I got lucky on this one and came out on the right side of the analysis. I turn 50 in 3 weeks and I've been to too damn many funerals of friends who thought they were invincible. When it takes a month for the river to go down far enough to find the kayak and the body still wedged in the hole ...

The point you're missing is that it could have been the Dalai Lama, St. Francis of Assisi, or Husayn ibn Ali in the car and I'd still say the same thing based on the poor decisions taken at the penultimate moment. At the end of the day my original observation stands as correct. Two men died as a result of playing stupid boy-racer games in the exact wrong place. Had they done this on a track in full Nomex, helmets, and HANS devices I wouldn't be calling them stupid, just unlucky.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:05 pm

dltd.
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