Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:08 pm

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Last edited by clone on Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:25 pm

Schadenfreude


taking joy in trouble of others.
No,
They have no trouble now.

No, I think everyone has said it is more along the lines of "there but for the grace of God go I"
grace, and the fact that we have learned from our and others mistakes, and now try to avoid these situations.

You seem to continue to trust more in grace and luck, than that learning thing.

good luck with it... :wink:
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:57 pm

You guys are arguing different perspectives that are all correct

clones POV: calling him out as being stupid is disrespectful and hypocritical, everyone takes risks, Paul wasn't driving, we don't know all the facts (maybe he didn't know how hard the driver would go)

others POV: it was stupid, reckless and endangered other people. He should not have been joyriding in a public place and suffered the consequences.


That's all true, it is rude to label him stupid since he is deceased and was an upstanding guy who did many selfless things. Factually what he did was stupid and there is no excuse for it.

A sad loss in my opinion.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:21 pm

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:00 pm

clone wrote:most importantly I'd like to know/learn what the mistake was..... and that is one of the primary points we disagree on.

A mistake is something that happens in the proper milieu, doesn't kill you, and causes immediate learning (i.e. having to go to the reserve 'chute on a jump). In the instant situation a mistake would have been a spin-out at 40-60 MPH where no curbs were hit hard nor gas tanks torn, and the lesson learned would be that the Porsche GT has all of the DNA of the pre-1993 911s and it will kill you if you don't respect it. The car might have taken some lumps, but everyone would have walked away.

What happened was not a mistake, despite 3 pages of your protestations to the contrary. Driver knew the car, knew how ass-happy it was (modern 911 drivers have no idea of what they used to be like and yes, the GT is shot through with 911 DNA), yet lit it up in the exact wrong place. Mistakes are survivable. Idiocy is not.

To my way of thinking mistakes are not errors in judgment; they're errors in preparation and execution. What happened there was a complete error in judgment. Mistake errors happen TO you. Judgment errors are something YOU cause.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:15 pm

ludi wrote:Okay, SOMEone has to go there, so:

Q.) What's the difference between this thread and Paul Walker?

Paul Walker wasn't a horse?
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:11 pm

No, wasn't it a whiskey?
Red something?
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:20 pm

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:52 pm

clone wrote:ppl do stupid things, ppl make mistakes, I'm not certain of what happened here.

As we've all been trying to tell you, they did a stupid thing given the time & place.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:43 pm

Both of you agree that everyone takes risks. The contention here is how much a risk our unfortunate racers took when they drove an unstable car at high speed through a parking lot. Is that a risk we would expect anyone to take on a daily basis, or is it a risk that most people would avoid?
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:18 am

I think from a legal standpoint, the fact that both drivers were trained and experienced in auto racing means that they have a greater duty to operate that vehicle in a safe manner. That makes their actions negligent, at the very least.

I also think it is possible to praise a person's life as a whole, while condemning one or more of their actions in specific. This is especially true if their negligent actions resulted in a tragedy for themselves or others.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:14 am

You know what's really sad is that I just learned (via The Smoking Tire Podcast) that both Paul Walker and Roger Rodas were in fact rather responsible automotive enthusiasts. They were the type to do trackdays, specifically so that they could enjoy their cars in a safe controlled environment and reduce the risk to themselves and to people around them, instead of hooning around on the streets. Roger Rodas, being a race car driver would have had an intuitive feel for the laws of physics that govern the behaviour of a car at speed through a corner. He would have known how to slowly approach a car's limits, and the sort of respect to give a car that is known for particularly twitchy handling.

It also comes to my attention that the Carrera GT they were driving was newly acquired, and they went on that little joyride specifically so Roger could show it off to Paul. Ironic that in that one moment they decide to break all of the previous good practices they were observing, and that Murphy's Law was ready to strike. It's almost like those disaster investigation films on Discovery channel where literally a string of bad decisions pile on top of each other to effect a catastrophic result.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:34 am

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:27 pm

hey got off public roads


You have entered suspension of reality mode again.

Yes, theses were public roads. Just because roads are in an industrial area does not make them not public roads.
Where do you think the people came from that drove by the burning wreck taking vid?
Hint: They didn't drive into a private warehouse...They were on the public road.

some would call that stupid, I don't because we lack the info to consider.


And you don't think there was any evidence to connect OJ to murder...right?

You set an impossible standard. There are 1000 items that show it was stupid, and you hold out, hoping to find one, one that somehow makes it an extenuating circumstance.

Even if by some miracle a malfunction is determined to have contributed...It will just be that...one contribution in a string of incredibly reckless and stupid choices.
It may well be the final contributing factor, but it will never negate or obviate the preceding ones.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:42 pm

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:06 pm

GeForce6200 wrote:RIP Paul, he was great overall guy and a true automotive enthusiast. Got an entire generation interested in the automotive world.

Captain Ned wrote:http://ll-media.tmz.com/2013/11/30/1130-paul-walker-accident-scene-car-facebook-3.jpg

This is what happens when unqualified drivers play boy racer.


Unqualified would not really be the term to use here, as the driver Roger Rodas, was a professional driver previous raced Porsche Cup cars and was most recent working with Ford Mustang Boss for the Pirelli World Challenge. Both Paul and Roger were not amateur drivers. I agree with JohnC in the fact that the CGT is a one of the hardest cars to drive. Have not driven one personally but seen many times on track days and talked to drivers. The car is a pure bred race car that meets DOT requirements, so it's street legal. JohnC, do you think that the "snap" oversteer associated with the CGT played a part of the accident? Either way two men lost their lives and I will miss PW. May he RIP.


The fact is, they died on a normal road with normal traffic, they could have hurt someone in the process, god forbid kill innocent people. He didn't die of bad weather, he died because of irresponsible driving on a regular paved road on a nice day.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:49 pm

and you believe this distinction matters to me? at all?


Yeah, I didn't think so.

Analogy.

My cousin OD.
I did research and found out the back alley he shot up in was well known and used by all the druggies in the area.
Hence, it wasn't stupid for him to shoot up there...it was a safe location...if anyone knows how to avoid OD, it is regular users rather than armatures... Right?

I'm still trying to figure out what mistake he made...its just a random tragedy as far as I can tell...the dealer was well know, it was a safe location...everyone does drugs right?

Must just be fate. :roll:

I'll be really mad if any of his friends say it was a stupid way to die at the funeral...like they never did drugs...judgmental idiots.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:48 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
clone wrote:ppl do stupid things, ppl make mistakes, I'm not certain of what happened here.

As we've all been trying to tell you, they did a stupid thing given the time & place.


I think what my potato canon friend is trying to say is this:

No matter the vice, level of stupidity, idiocracy, stunt or game, there is a time and place for these things.
Examples:
A-Drugs being given to you and monitored at a Hospital - 99% safe
B-Drugs being given to you and monitored by yourself in your home - 50% safe

A-Shooting explosive targets at a designated range - 90% safe
B-Shooting explosive targets at a crowded beach - 2% safe

A-Having "private time" in your home bathroom - 98% safe
B-Having "private time" in the seat of a full 747 - 0% safe

A-Driving fast cars, drifting and racing in a controlled environment - 95% safe
B-Driving fast cars, drifting and racing through the streets of New York at 4PM - 0% safe (if speed could even be obtained)

So EVEN though Paul and his buddy could race, had track time, were trained and were either near or at professional level in terms of skill, going 100+ in an office complex was not the best of places to do this. There is noting wrong with racing, I love racing on the track, but do I race my bike down my city streets? No. Because the chance of death goes up a few more notches than I would prefer.

Conclusion: What they were doing was ok. WHERE they were doing it was not. And that is what killed them. :( They took option B.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:10 am

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:09 pm

clone wrote:industrial park, no traffic, no danger to the public.

...and you know there was no traffic how? Just because it was a Saturday does not mean the industrial park was deserted. A lot of businesses operate on Saturdays.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:46 pm

dltd.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:27 pm

clone wrote:
Tell me something... on one of these occasions, if someone in the plane announced that hey, this time we're going to jump over a large city during rush hour, or over packed amusement park, or right above Niagara Falls; would you still do it?


Elvis impersonator/skydivers do it all the time in Vegas in large groups actually.


Yes; and in Vegas they go to great lengths to re-direct traffic and maintain a safe area for them to land. Once again you've missed the point entirely.

if you are trying to come up with a scenario that is completely stupid I agree it's possible. so? I disagree regarding Paul Walkers death, I don't believe it was stupid so much as unfortunate but yes of course some situations are stupid just like some aren't........ details in this instance are lacking in order to judge afaic.


What details do you think are missing? They drove a car that handles poorly even when it's not experiencing issues way too fast for the location they were driving. What other details do you think exist that potentially counter that?

The same is true for driving at racing speeds.
not always.


Yes, always. Time and place, responsiveness of the vehicle; these things always matter when driving at those speeds.

Regarding your friend with the boat... as sad as it is that he died, going out on a small craft in high winds and frigid water without enough life vests is stupid. Your friend may not have been stupid, but his actions on that day were.


did the winds pick up after they went out? sailing is all about the wind btw..... kinda the whole point and high winds are when the fun begins.


IT DOESN'T MATTER. That's why you always take enough life jackets for everybody - because high winds might pick up, among countless other things that might happen in open waters.

frigid water is everywhere, ppl been sailing on it for centuries.


Right! Which makes going out without proper safety measures a really dumb thing to do!

yes a mistake was made, an unfortunate one, he forgot to check to see if their were enough life jackets, happens all the time.


Sure; and irresponsible people drive too fast for conditions all the time. And sometimes they die. And "it happens" doesn't make them any less foolish.

Cphite you and the Westboro Baptist Church have something in common, very quick and eager to judge.


Actually I think they have more in common with you; you share the same ability to hold a position no matter how illogical and nonsensical it's shown to be. And, of course, there is your eagerness to resort to name-calling...

we don't need to agree Cphite, I know and fully understand your position from top to bottom, your position isn't unique. I doubt you want to see my side but that's fine if you don't.


I see your side, I just can't believe it's the side of someone that's old enough to be on the internet unsupervised...
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:50 pm

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:05 pm

clone wrote:the Porsche was being serviced and stored at Paul's shop. the event was over and they were backing it into the garage when it started stalling. after asking why it was stalling Rodas recommended they take it around the block & Paul asked to join him to see if they could diagnose it.

this goes against the "joyriding, deliberately riding recklessly" claims.

Ah, so they "diagnosed it" by flooring it and hitting 100+ MPH while "taking it around the block". Funny kind of diagnosis outside of a track situation if you ask me. The fact (if true) that they took a known-twitchy high-performance car out for a speed run when it wasn't working properly is yet another indicator of a complete failure in judgment from people that, by their records, should have known better than to attempt. This latest tidbit of yours does nothing to boost your case and, in fact, adds to the factors your detractors have discussed for however many pages this thing is by now (4, as of this posting).

What will it take to pound into your brain that your idol did not die of a "mistake" but instead died of a failure in judgment that, while regrettable, does not elevate his death into a blameless apotheosis? I know you've already stated that time, place, & manner mean nothing to you, so I don't know why I still chase this white whale, but chase it and stab at it (with hell's heart) I will as long as you make the affirmative decision to ignore reality. I really hope you don't have a Genesis Device.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:06 pm

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:16 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
clone wrote:the Porsche was being serviced and stored at Paul's shop. the event was over and they were backing it into the garage when it started stalling. after asking why it was stalling Rodas recommended they take it around the block & Paul asked to join him to see if they could diagnose it.

this goes against the "joyriding, deliberately riding recklessly" claims.

Ah, so they "diagnosed it" by flooring it and hitting 100+ MPH while "taking it around the block". Funny kind of diagnosis outside of a track situation if you ask me. The fact (if true) that they took a known-twitchy high-performance car out for a speed run when it wasn't working properly is yet another indicator of a complete failure in judgment from people that, by their records, should have known better than to attempt. This latest tidbit of yours does nothing to boost your case and, in fact, adds to the factors your detractors have discussed for however many pages this thing is by now (4, as of this posting).

What will it take to pound into your brain that your idol did not die of a "mistake" but instead died of a failure in judgment that, while regrettable, does not elevate his death into a blameless apotheosis? I know you've already stated that time, place, & manner mean nothing to you, so I don't know why I still chase this white whale, but chase it and stab at it (with hell's heart) I will as long as you make the affirmative decision to ignore reality. I really hope you don't have a Genesis Device.



It will take realizing that you cannot fix stupid.

We use to call this "Raising Hell & Burning Bleeping Babies". Some of us live to tell about it, some don't. Society will always have examples for us to watch, so as we not make the same errors they make.

Would be kinda funny if they were listening to Rob Zombie's "Welcome to Planet MutherTrucker" ;)
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:27 pm

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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:36 pm

zenlessyank wrote:It will take realizing that you cannot fix stupid.

I know that. We all know that. Only one poster refuses to accept that. He claims not to see Walker an idol, yet cannot grok an outcome where his death could not be 100% ascribed to the car. It's like Ralph Nader and Joan Claybrook in one package. Every time we raise a cogent argument, he changes his tune. Must be having a hard time looking at that poster every night.

I don't care how empty the road might appear to be. Here in the US speeds of 100+ belong solely on a track or on roads specifically cleared and secured for intentional use at said speeds (there used to be some flat-out thing in Nevada, not sure if it still exists, entrants clearly knew & accepted what they were about to do, and the wrecks were spectacular).

Clone:

You want us to remember/celebrate/feel bad at the death of Paul Walker without taking any notice of how and why his death occurred as you consider the only relevant thing to be the death itself. As you've seen, you're about the only one willing to take that tack and ignore the fatal failures in judgment that caused his death. In fact, if driver dude has substantial assets, there's already a line of tort litigators outside Walker's daughter's door.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:39 pm

clone wrote:back in 1991 the motorcycle grand prix tire makers introduced some compounds for the racers that improved traction at the expense of feedback. lap times did get a little better but unfortunately a whack load of top level racers crashed in dramatic fashion, was that the riders fault, did all of the top riders suddenly become stupid? were they suffering from errors in judgement?..... I mean they knew the tires nature, each of them literally logged 100's of hours on them so why all of the crashes?

it was because the tires weren't didn't work with the bikes, the riders response times couldn't compensate due to the lack of predictable feedback. moving forward bikes got redesigned so that cylinder firing spread out the power pulses and the tire makers went back a year in development.....suddenly the subject of crashes at the top level went away. I guess the riders got smart again right? their errors in judgement went away right?

the 2005 Porsche is a lot like the car version of those tires, tiny mistake ='s horrid results and no forgiveness. very unfortunate and that Captain Ned is reality.



The risk of racing a motorcycle -- even with precautions -- is much higher than the risk of racing an automobile with equitable precautions. Also, presumably, the motorcycle riders didn't know the added risk posed by the tires, whereas the Porsche drivers were presumably aware of the risks of their vehicle.

On the other hand, the two situations are strikingly similar. Both involve people who took tremendous risks and ended up dying as a result -- the cyclists, because motorcycles are notorious deathtraps, and are even more so with new and unproven modifications, and the car drivers, because they drove a problematic vehicle at high speed in a dangerous environment.
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Re: Rest in peace, Paul Walker...

Postposted on Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:25 am

clone wrote:the 2005 Porsche is a lot like the car version of those tires, tiny mistake ='s horrid results and no forgiveness. they weren't joyriding, they knew the area, the location was away from the public, the car is as unforgiving as one can be and possibly worst of all while the mechanical gremlin wasn't handling related it may, (we'll never know) it may have played a huge role in the accident.... sad it happened.

Again with the fargin' excuses. You admit there might have been a mechanical issue, yet you refuse to agree that until said issue was either fixed or found incorrect the decision to go speeding around the park was wrong.

And, as always, you fail to make the most important distinction. Had this happened at Road America, VIR, Watkins Glen, Laguna Seca, Lime Rock, or any of a myriad of road tracks we'd not be having this discussion (though in Python terms it's rapidly converging to contradiction). Accredited road tracks don't have trees and light posts in the line of potential flight, which is why F1 no longer races at the Nordschleife. If Monaco wasn't where all the F1 money lives, it'd be off the schedule as well.
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