ES: V Skyrim announced

How we justify all that high-dollar hardware.

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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:29 pm

WalkCMD wrote:
SecretMaster wrote:I think that speaks volumes on its own. I understand their goal is to get as many sales possible, but when you start to crap on your original fanbase which made you popular it is disheartening. Time will tell of course.


I'm usually not biased when it comes to games being designed for PC or consoles but this is one franchise that deserves to be designed specifically for the PC first then fitted to be ported over to consoles.


I have a slightly different perspective; I think that this is one franchise that deserves not to die. Given that it is gameplay and story oriented with graphics just being a bonus, I'd have to say I support developers making business decisions that result in their franchise being carried over and growing into the future. Not everyone can develop games in holes and hope to succeed financially like CDProjekt :).
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Airmantharp
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:41 pm

I think there's a major flaw in the idea that the ES games needed to be more accessible. Oblivion was a massive success and I don't recall anyone telling me it was too difficult or confusing.

I wish game developers and publishers would stop assuming their audience is dumb or easily confused. How about building in a strong tutorial instead?
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:25 pm

Oblivion was a massive success and I don't recall anyone telling me it was too difficult or confusing.

Oblivion was also fairly stripped down. Look back to Daggerfall to get a better idea of what people are talking about when they complain about Bethesda's later games being "dumbed down". 'Course, it's easy to forget that Daggerfall was also a confusing mess, and that its size was epic on paper but... unimpressive in delivery.

I wish game developers and publishers would stop assuming their audience is dumb or easily confused

They'll stop assuming that when their audience stops being that.
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:54 pm

What proof do we have that the audience is dumb? These are RPG games that have had a long history of success. Morrowind was popular as well and I seriously doubt it was the removal of some of the more challenging aspects of the game that made Oblivion even more popular. Personally I think it had much more to do with the timing of its release and at the time its graphics.
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:51 am

Honestly I wasnt drawn in to Oblivion. I played for about 5 hours and I cant remember what turned me off it. Maybe its time I go back and revisit it.....Hmmmm

As for Morrowind I loved, with the exception of having to walk everywhere! (I think Oblivion was supposed to change that)

Skyrim looks like something I will enjoy.
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:18 pm

What proof do we have that the audience is dumb?

Well, they keep buying the products put out by people that assume they're dumb, so either they are dumb, or are mostly apathetic about being considered dumb. :D
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:26 pm

Honestly I wasnt drawn in to Oblivion. I played for about 5 hours and I cant remember what turned me off it.

It might just not be your sort of game. I never finished Oblivion (or Morrowind, or Fallout 3...), but I had many, many dozens of hours running around and finding weird stuff. I only know a handful of people that claim to have "visited every location". Me, I'm not interested in visiting every location or really consuming the game to 100% completion or whatever... but I had a lot of fun for a lot of hours.
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:48 pm

I didn't like the character models in Oblivion, they looked weird and had unnatural animations.. I watched my friend play through that game and it didn't really interest me. Its like it was kinda in the right direction but just not executed very well.
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:01 pm

SPOOFE wrote:Oblivion was also fairly stripped down. Look back to Daggerfall to get a better idea of what people are talking about when they complain about Bethesda's later games being "dumbed down".

Daggerfall barely works even after patches and most of the game world is randomly generated boredom and strangeness. I'd bet Daggerfall was ridiculed for being a step down from Arena. ;) Bethesda couldn't make a game remotely stable until sometime after Morrowind got all patched up and mostly worked. Oblivion v1.0 was a marvel of stability and functionality compared to their prior efforts. I think they figured out some massively superior testing methodology over there (I remember a comment about it in an interview).

Oblivion's gameplay problems stem from the challenges of the fully open world RPG, which is not exactly a common game type. It's pretty much Bethesda's genre. The way they try to address the issues in different ways with each release is interesting. But they obviously can't really nail it down perfectly to make everybody happy. The various mods try their own takes at it but none of them are unarguably ideal.

Anyway, I am pumped for Skyrim. Visually it is definitely a major improvement, particularly the distant view. Oblivion had a small bubble of detailed area near the player but Skyrim is not like that at all from the vids. They also apparently hired some of the modders that put out quality Oblivion gameplay and AI work and that is even more exciting.
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:06 pm

Daggerfall barely works even after patches and most of the game world is randomly generated boredom and strangeness

I had decent enough success with stability. My problem was after twenty hours or so I'd get impatient and start using character modifications and then the game would start getting unstable; I never could figure out if it was the game itself or me tinkering with its guts.

The dungeons were what drew me in, even though they were disgustingly immense and I kept getting lost...
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:32 pm

swaaye wrote:
SPOOFE wrote:Oblivion was also fairly stripped down. Look back to Daggerfall to get a better idea of what people are talking about when they complain about Bethesda's later games being "dumbed down".

Daggerfall barely works even after patches and most of the game world is randomly generated boredom and strangeness. I'd bet Daggerfall was ridiculed for being a step down from Arena. ;) Bethesda couldn't make a game remotely stable until sometime after Morrowind got all patched up and mostly worked. Oblivion v1.0 was a marvel of stability and functionality compared to their prior efforts. I think they figured out some massively superior testing methodology over there (I remember a comment about it in an interview).

Oblivion's gameplay problems stem from the challenges of the fully open world RPG, which is not exactly a common game type. It's pretty much Bethesda's genre. The way they try to address the issues in different ways with each release is interesting. But they obviously can't really nail it down perfectly to make everybody happy. The various mods try their own takes at it but none of them are unarguably ideal.

Anyway, I am pumped for Skyrim. Visually it is definitely a major improvement, particularly the distant view. Oblivion had a small bubble of detailed area near the player but Skyrim is not like that at all from the vids. They also apparently hired some of the modders that put out quality Oblivion gameplay and AI work and that is even more exciting.


Eh maybe it was just you. I've installed Daggerfall on numerous systems throughout the years and have never had any issues. I haven't tried the "free" download from their website, but I can't imagine it would be any different. Also I don't remember anything game-breaking about Morrowind before it was patched. Their games have always been notoriously buggy, even with patches, but I've never been forced to *not* play because of a bug. Patched Morrowind is as stable as an Elder Scrolls game could be IMO.

I'll admit when I first got Morrowind I was totally perplexed; this was the long awaited sequel to Daggerfall and having heard nothing about the game before buying it, I was in for quite a shock. The game was obviously vastly different from its predecessors but it sucked in me completely. Morrowind probably is my favorite game of all time; I replay ad naseum and still fall in love with the game.

I really love what Oblivion did with many gameplay mechanics; stealth, melee, and magic combat are all vastly superior to Morrowind. Really I think those were the biggest complaints that many people getting into Morrowind have; I introduced my housemate to Morrowind and when he kept getting killed he quit the game in a fit of pique saying "this is stupid, if my axe hits them visually why doesn't the game register it?"

The reduction of skills was irritating, but somewhat bearable, especially since the perks added a nice touch to skills. But then you start noticing more and more little things. The vendors in Oblivion were useless and frustrating. Since the game enacts a leveling system, I found myself not relying on vendors at all (not in the case of Morrowind where I saved up tons of cash to buy rare to find ebony armor or glass in Ghostgate), except maybe for spells. That right there reduces the amount of immersion and interaction I have. The reduction of armor slots; certain clothing options didn't exist, wearing clothes and armor wasn't doable, the removal of pauldrons and the merging of gloves/bracers. The clothing issue for me is a big one because that is a huge role-playing element. Mixing and matching outfits in Morrowind was extremely enjoyable, and cloth vendors were awesome.

It also dawned on me pretty quickly how boring the game felt when my warrior was only really suited for one faction. There are only 4 real factions in Oblivion and that is a travesty. With Morrowind my paladin-esque character joined the Fighters Guild, Imperial Legion, and Imperial Cult. I could have also joined House Redoran (and indeed through some play throughs I have). People have said the questlines for guilds in Oblivion are better, and I would only say marginally so.

Spoken dialogue also drove me insane. I like to read. I love reading. I enjoy envisioning the voices, and the much more rich dialogue you can get with text. A few sentences along with the greatly reduced dialogue topics was another little thing in Oblivion.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. For me it was the culmination of many little things in Oblivion that really turned me off and made me say "pah." Had they simply changed just the combat system for magic, stealth, and melee, and retained everything else, I would have loved that. I'll have to see with Skyrim, but the reduction of core RPG elements like stats is already making me have my doubts.
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Re: ES: V Skyrim announced

Postposted on Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:33 pm

Daggerfall definitely still has problems, not the least of which is that it corrupts save files. Early versions of Morrowind are slower than later versions and also crashed to desktop every 20 mins or so. The final version, and naturally the GotY edition, are far better than early on. I've also tried all of their Terminator games. Future Shock and Skynet are pretty ugly when it comes to stability. I would absolutely love to see a company make a new Terminator game like Future Shock or similar to Fallout 3.

Check these links out. ;)
http://www.svatopluk.com/daggerfall/dow ... ixsave.stm
http://www.svatopluk.com/daggerfall/bugs.stm


There is no denying that Oblivion has gameplay problems. I can't wait to see what they do this time to incite endless flame wars around the web. In the meantime maybe I'll go spend hours setting up another super modded Oblivion install that is inherently unstable and barely play it. :D

My angle is a bit different than that of most RPG fans though. I'm not really a stats-based gaming enthusiast. I like these games because they are so open in design. Freeform free-for-alls with curious AI everywhere and lots of places to explore, and the ability to cause my own brand of havoc. But I also look for a story that's entertaining. Oblivion entertained me overall, but I didn't exactly dig deep into the crevices of its various RPG systems. I found it to be an immersive experience overall although yes there certainly weren't enough voice actors or dialog.
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