Why DRM stinks

How we justify all that high-dollar hardware.

Moderator: Hoser

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:34 am

Madman wrote:Well, I managed to find a binaries somewhere on the Bioware servers from googling around random 3rd party forums and finding an old post with a direct link, pure luck. And the game runs without issues on Mint 13 which is very fresh actually. Still, it took a lot of googling to find that, and 3rd party forum was a savior just by a chance.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nwn+linux+client

SECOND RESULT ON GOOGLE FOR "NWN LINUX CLIENT": http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic ... ex/4643217

By "luck" you must mean that that "I feel lucky" doesn't immediately take you to it. :roll:

For heaven's sake, isn't community-sourced support exactly what Linux is supposed to be about? And, for the love of the FSM, this support community is actually hosted by the developer, is relatively up-to-date, and the links to the binaries all work and are also hosted by Bioware!

Madman wrote:Of course, it seems to be a MMORPG game, with subscriptions or something, but the retail media or starter was not free as I understand.


Oh, ok. Now we're talking about something else entirely. Again. Wow.

Let me see if I can follow your logic, starting from the beginning:

1) Links for a FREE & NON-RELEASE (it came out a year later) & BINARY Linux client for a TEN YEAR OLD game no longer work.

1A) Instead of reflecting on the ubiquity of broken links on the internet, especially ones from years and years ago, you decide that the failure of publisher/developer to maintain FREEBIES on their website in the same way for all perpetuity is indicative of how:

2) We can't trust publishers/developers to ever deactivate DRM. Nope.

2A) Ignoring the extremely tenuous connection between 1 & 2, you didn't heed my examples of developers/publishers who did exactly that. You also ignore their many promises to do so in the future, with no real reason. Heck, you don't even recognize that the implications of one of the core anti-DRM arguments ("Crackers gonna crack, pirates up, legit buyers down!") is that DRM removal patches are out there anyway & already. No, instead you decided to illustrate your point by:

3) Talking about how there is a MMORPG that is soon-to-be-defunct, despite how obviously non-channel resellers on Amazon still offer it. :roll:

3A) Ignoring the complete and utter irrelevancy of 3 with 1 & 2, you fail to realize that the only way to prevent non-channel resellers from selling even defunct MMORPG software is to completely and utterly abrogate the legal doctrine of first sale. Incredibly, you ignore that salient fact despite how regard in your camp for that very same doctrine has reached legendary (and entirely unwarranted) proportions.

---

In summary, your criticisms are barely coherent and your argument for how all this all relates to DRM non-support seems to boil down to two things:

i) Broken links for FREE products are indicative of bad faith on behalf of publishers/developers instead of simple oversight or archival indifference.
ii) There is the possibility that an unfortunate soul could purchase installation media for the defunct COH for nearly $100 from a third-party on Amazon IN THE UNKNOWN FUTURE, and since publishers/developers have not made the server software freeware/opensource, misfortune will ensue.

The first one is a big ado about nothing; a conspiracy of inaction. As I said, broken links are legion and shackling developers/publishers into never changing their websites is not the solution. The solution, for the technically inclined, should be reflexive: Google. Use it, it works!

The second one is something that publishers/developers have no control over, and, more importantly, you don't want them to! You side is aggressively interpreting First Sale into something akin to a positive right despite no recognition from the actual legal community, so it's contradictory and hypocritical to make issue over the recognized (and actually statutory) negative right.

Because even making the server stuff freeware/opensource won't totally solve the issue: our hapless and misfortunate soul who hypothetically purchases COH in a few months for 95 USD (shipping not included!) will find that it doesn't work. What will he have to do? Oh, right: Google.

And, of course, there are myriad and mundane reasons why the developers/publishers of COH would not release such stuffs, as it's a legal minefield. They may even be very specific reasons: COH deals with superheroes. They were sued by Marvel. Parts of the suit were dismissed, but, and this is critical, there was a settlement under undisclosed terms!

That settlement might have precluded the makers of COH from ever releasing their server stuffs! We don't know, but it certainly seems likely.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7765
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:35 pm

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:27 am

My specs: GE Spacemaker JVM2052SNSS | 1050.0 Watts | 3 speed turntable | 2.0 cu ft | Quick 1 lb Defrost
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20455
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:20 am

I come for the cheese and reviews, I stay for glorious' ass-chewings. :lol:
Corsair 600T | ASUS P8P67 PRO | Intel 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | EVGA 560 TI | G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB | Corsair HX650 650W
steelcity_ballin
Gerbilus Supremus
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 11883
Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 4:55 am
Location: Pittsburgh PA

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:21 pm

Glorious wrote:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nwn+linux+client

SECOND RESULT ON GOOGLE FOR "NWN LINUX CLIENT": http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic ... ex/4643217


1) Yeah, right, try to install GOG distributed NWN this way. Tell me how it goes, especially since Data_Linux.zip is not there.
2) social.bioware.com is not an official site or response, all files mentioned there are not signed, and once you install anything from 3rd party location, your computer is no loger guarenteed to be safe. Maybe those zips contain a rootkit? They are not hosted on bioware servers.
3) Official Linux install guide is here - http://nwn.bioware.com/downloads/linuxclient.html, see, it WORKS!

Glorious wrote:[...legalese...]

Whatever. Skip the stuff and concentrate on the actual issue:
1) Game is leased for the retail prices
2) You have zero guaranetees you will be able to install, let alone play the game you just brought

Vrock wrote:Feel better now, Madman?

Yes, great news! The games are still not 100% DRM free, and the points above still apply. But given the fact that they have done a step in the right direction, I think I will make an exception to buy a few Ubi non-draconic-DRM games. Even though I still try to leave everything with DRM on my ignore list.
Core 2 Duo E6300, MSI P45 NEO-F, Club 3D GTX 260, 4Gb DDR2-800Mhz, Audigy X-Fi Fatal1ty Champ1on ed., 0.5Tb+1Tb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 630W AXP, Samsung SyncMaster BX2450, ViewSonic VP171b
Madman
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2317
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:55 am
Location: Latvia

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:26 pm

The game itself could have a rootkit too, if you're worried about that. :roll:

Plus you're in Linux, you shouldn't need to be running the game with super user privileges so what's the worry?
BobbinThreadbare
Graphmaster Gerbil
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:47 am
Location: Champaign, IL

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:46 pm

BobbinThreadbare wrote:The game itself could have a rootkit too, if you're worried about that. :roll:

There are trusted 3rd parties like Microsoft, Adobe, Oracle, Google, which you know you can rely on mostly, because if they would do something bad, they would be in a heap of trouble.

Something like ftp:\\somejonesfiles.nonexistingdomain/leetnwnwpatch.zip posted at community forums is a completely different thing.

Ok, I found that there are actual links to the files hosted on bioware servers later in the thread. No idea why I couldn't find the discussion when I googled. I used different terms.

But all official links and instructions are dead.
Core 2 Duo E6300, MSI P45 NEO-F, Club 3D GTX 260, 4Gb DDR2-800Mhz, Audigy X-Fi Fatal1ty Champ1on ed., 0.5Tb+1Tb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 630W AXP, Samsung SyncMaster BX2450, ViewSonic VP171b
Madman
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2317
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:55 am
Location: Latvia

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:48 pm

Madman wrote:
BobbinThreadbare wrote:The game itself could have a rootkit too, if you're worried about that. :roll:

There are trusted 3rd parties like Microsoft, Adobe, Oracle, Google, which you know you can rely on mostly, because if they would do something bad, they would be in a heap of trouble.

Just like Sony right?
BobbinThreadbare
Graphmaster Gerbil
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:47 am
Location: Champaign, IL

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:59 pm

BobbinThreadbare wrote:Just like Sony right?

It's still better to trust big companies than some random internet download. The problem was caught pretty fast too.

And Sony... Well, it all was caused by DRM, so... Just reinforcing the point.
Core 2 Duo E6300, MSI P45 NEO-F, Club 3D GTX 260, 4Gb DDR2-800Mhz, Audigy X-Fi Fatal1ty Champ1on ed., 0.5Tb+1Tb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 630W AXP, Samsung SyncMaster BX2450, ViewSonic VP171b
Madman
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2317
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:55 am
Location: Latvia

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:40 pm

Madman wrote:
BobbinThreadbare wrote:Just like Sony right?

It's still better to trust big companies than some random internet download. The problem was caught pretty fast too.

And Sony... Well, it all was caused by DRM, so... Just reinforcing the point.

How about this? Who in their right mind would take the effort to design a rootkit for the 10 people running Never Winter Nights on Linux?
BobbinThreadbare
Graphmaster Gerbil
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:47 am
Location: Champaign, IL

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:55 pm

JBI - you've been getting a bit ornery lately, I know I don't post as much as I used to, but I still read a lot and I have to tell you I've noticed a trend.

And I like it!
leor
Maximum Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 4739
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 5:34 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:30 pm

Madman wrote:1) Yeah, right, try to install GOG distributed NWN this way. Tell me how it goes, especially since Data_Linux.zip is not there.


Well, if I was going to do that, I'd look on GOG.com for instructions. I would Google "gog.com instructions for linux nwn client" and hit "I feel lucky."

What would I find? Oh, right:

http://www.gog.com/en/forum/neverwinter ... lity/page1

A current thread, full instructions, two methods, and working links to the files hosted on Bioware.com. MD5 sums too!

I imagine it would go very, very easily, but what do I know? :roll:

Madman wrote:2) social.bioware.com is not an official site or response, all files mentioned there are not signed, and once you install anything from 3rd party location, your computer is no loger guarenteed to be safe. Maybe those zips contain a rootkit? They are not hosted on bioware servers.


This is a farce. social.bioware.com is the official social network site for Bioware, the developer of the game. The files themselves are hosted on nwdownloads.bioware.com, obviously also a Bioware server. The files were never signed, so what the heck are you even talking about? You're delusional!

Do you even know what subdomains are? Is that your problem here? :o

Madman wrote:3) Official Linux install guide is here - http://nwn.bioware.com/downloads/linuxclient.html, see, it WORKS!


Yes, that link is dead. Meanwhile, on social.bioware.com you can ask for help or try to figure it out yourself because all the files you need are there (isn't linux all about hacking like this anyway?) Or on gog.com, where you bought the game, you can find instructions and working bioware-hosted links.

Where's the fire dude?

Madman wrote:Whatever. Skip the stuff and concentrate on the actual issue:
1) Game is leased for the retail prices


Actually the game is licensed, you semi-literate savage. And if you don't like it, don't buy it.

Madman wrote:2) You have zero guaranetees you will be able to install, let alone play the game you just brought


Then return it. That's the only guarantee you have that anything you buy works. It's called the implied warranty of merchantability. You, once again, have no idea what you are talking about.

Madman wrote:Ok, I found that there are actual links to the files hosted on bioware servers later in the thread. No idea why I couldn't find the discussion when I googled. I used different terms.


1) By "later in the thread" you mean they are the ONLY links in the post, prefaced with "download", colored differently, and have their sizes helpfully included in parentheses after the link. In other words, they stick out like a sore thumb. You obviously didn't even read the social.bioware.com link I posted before falsely claiming that they were third-party links!

2) You obviously have no idea how to use Google, which says quite a bit.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7765
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:35 pm

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:27 pm

Glorious wrote:
Madman wrote:1) Yeah, right, try to install GOG distributed NWN this way. Tell me how it goes, especially since Data_Linux.zip is not there.


Well, if I was going to do that, I'd look on GOG.com for instructions. I would Google "gog.com instructions for linux nwn client" and hit "I feel lucky."

What would I find? Oh, right:

http://www.gog.com/en/forum/neverwinter ... lity/page1

Don't panic, I did, now look again, files are on rapidshare and ign. I actually went through all forum threads, and all aproaches had problems. Only after additional googling I found external resource with a walktrough and links to actual Linux files hosted on bioware servers.

Glorious wrote:
Madman wrote:2) social.bioware.com is not an official site or response, all files mentioned there are not signed, and once you install anything from 3rd party location, your computer is no loger guarenteed to be safe. Maybe those zips contain a rootkit? They are not hosted on bioware servers.


This is a farce. social.bioware.com is the official social network site for Bioware, the developer of the game. The files themselves are hosted on nwdownloads.bioware.com, obviously also a Bioware server. The files were never signed, so what the heck are you even talking about? You're delusional!

Do you even know what subdomains are? Is that your problem here? :o

Ok, so by your logic, if I post a post on social.bioware.com with a link to some random file, the responsibility about this file is automatically transferred to Bioware? Both links contain files outside Bioware domain as steps for installation, gog and social threads.

Glorious wrote:
Madman wrote:3) Official Linux install guide is here - http://nwn.bioware.com/downloads/linuxclient.html, see, it WORKS!


Yes, that link is dead. Meanwhile, on social.bioware.com you can ask for help or try to figure it out yourself because all the files you need are there (isn't linux all about hacking like this anyway?) Or on gog.com, where you bought the game, you can find instructions and working bioware-hosted links.

Where's the fire dude?

Official suport links are gone, actual downloads are unreachable without direct link. So obviously, the publisher doesn't care about the game anymore.

It's only by luck that someone posted the direct links on the forums, but forums are not something that's under extended support or something like that. It's community talk.

Now imagine what will happen if DRM authentication servers are taken offline. Will the support forums stay on indeffinitely? Are the community contributors even allowed to post a DRM workarounds on forums? I'm more than sure it's against the law.

Glorious wrote:
Madman wrote:Whatever. Skip the stuff and concentrate on the actual issue:
1) Game is leased for the retail prices


Actually the game is licensed, you semi-literate savage. And if you don't like it, don't buy it.

I don't remember Steam, etc., EULAs, but IIRC it was worded closer to lease.

There is a difference. I can pop a 10 year old DVD of a game I brought, it will install and play.

But with any online title it will work only, if the online server is running, and if the lease [or whatever the closest legal term is] is not terminated, which can happen for any reason, like optimization, or company buyout.

The difference is night and day.

And yes, that's why I prefer GOG for all game purchases.

Glorious wrote:
Madman wrote:2) You have zero guaranetees you will be able to install, let alone play the game you just brought


Then return it. That's the only guarantee you have that anything you buy works. It's called the implied warranty of merchantability. You, once again, have no idea what you are talking about.

Ok, go buy a COH DVD for 70$, open it, and return it when the servers go out. Tell me how it goes.

Glorious wrote:
Madman wrote:Ok, I found that there are actual links to the files hosted on bioware servers later in the thread. No idea why I couldn't find the discussion when I googled. I used different terms.


1) By "later in the thread" you mean they are the ONLY links in the post, prefaced with "download", colored differently, and have their sizes helpfully included in parentheses after the link. In other words, they stick out like a sore thumb. You obviously didn't even read the social.bioware.com link I posted before falsely claiming that they were third-party links!

2) You obviously have no idea how to use Google, which says quite a bit.

The only links also include home roadrunner com.

I have, I found the solution, via different blog post, and direct links to downloads. But most solutions either relied on CD/DVD version, or contained few steps involving 3rd party executables from unknown external sources.

Moreover, it's the easy case, the NWN files still exist on Bioware servers, and only the links to them, and official guide is missing. Now imagine what will happen when game that phones home during install or gameplay will have the servers down. It's all game over.

Try that COH purchase, and tell us how it goes. It will be an interesting story.
Core 2 Duo E6300, MSI P45 NEO-F, Club 3D GTX 260, 4Gb DDR2-800Mhz, Audigy X-Fi Fatal1ty Champ1on ed., 0.5Tb+1Tb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 630W AXP, Samsung SyncMaster BX2450, ViewSonic VP171b
Madman
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2317
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:55 am
Location: Latvia

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:39 pm

BobbinThreadbare wrote:Plus you're in Linux, you shouldn't need to be running the game with super user privileges so what's the worry?

I forgot to tell, any application running on behalf of user (non-root), has full access to users home directory, including all the files stored there.

This is why I'm always surprised that people suggest that any application that's not running as root is safe. App is still capable to modify startup sequence, at least in Windows (HKCU/Run), it's capable of reading/writing all user data, launching other applications and establishing a network connection to external hosts, unless interface is taken down, in which case it shouldn't be able to bring the interface back up.

But really, how many computers are without always on internet connection nowadays? So any unknown app is a potential data leak/miner.
Core 2 Duo E6300, MSI P45 NEO-F, Club 3D GTX 260, 4Gb DDR2-800Mhz, Audigy X-Fi Fatal1ty Champ1on ed., 0.5Tb+1Tb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 630W AXP, Samsung SyncMaster BX2450, ViewSonic VP171b
Madman
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2317
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:55 am
Location: Latvia

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:00 pm

Madman wrote:Don't panic, I did, now look again, files are on rapidshare and ign. I actually went through all forum threads, and all aproaches had problems. Only after additional googling I found external resource with a walktrough and links to actual Linux files hosted on bioware servers.


You are such an utterly shameless liar.

http://www.gog.com/en/forum/neverwinter ... lity/page1

The first link is on rapidshare, the links IMMEDIATELY BELOW IT are on bioware.

English_linuxclient169_xp2.tar.gz [http://files.bioware.com/neverwinternights/updates/linux/169/English_linuxclient169_xp2.tar.gz]
nwclientgold.tar.gz [http://nwdownloads.bioware.com/neverwinternights/linux/gold/nwclientgold.tar.gz]
nwclienthotu.tar.gz [http://nwdownloads.bioware.com/neverwinternights/linux/161/nwclienthotu.tar.gz]

THOSE links are what you need for the actual linux client.

That last link, NWNEnglish1.69HotUUpdate.exe, which is the only one hosted on IGN.COM, is obviously not a Linux binary. It's just the most recent patch (for WINDOWS) for the game. You can find it anywhere, for instance, here:

files.bioware.com/neverwinternights/updates/windows/english/NWNEnglish1.69HotUUpdate.exe

You only need it for Linux because the installer updates game resources, not just the windows code. The only reason it is even necessary is because for some reason gog.com isn't selling the last version of the game or something.

---

In fact, that patch actually indicates that they were maintaining the linux client all along, as according to wikipedia 1.69 came out in 2008, and the latest linux client was updated at the same time.

You see, when the links broke for the linux client they broke for the windows client too! In other words, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DROPPING SUPPORT FOR LINUX.

Madman wrote:Ok, so by your logic, if I post a post on social.bioware.com with a link to some random file, the responsibility about this file is automatically transferred to Bioware? Both links contain files outside Bioware domain as steps for installation, gog and social threads.


No retard, by my "logic," also known as REALITY, files that are hosted on Bioware.com are hosted by Bioware.

I have no idea why you are having such incredible difficulty with this inanely simple concept.

Madman wrote:Official suport links are gone, actual downloads are unreachable without direct link. So obviously, the publisher doesn't care about the game anymore.


They aren't even remotely unreachable. I've posted them time and time again and personally verified that they aren't broken. Your complaint here is literally nothing more than that their website has changed over the last TEN YEARS. :o

You can download every file you need from bioware RIGHT NOW. I have no idea what you mean by "actual downloads are unreachable without direct link." All I can gather is that you evidently don't understand the internet. <shrug>

Madman wrote:It's only by luck that someone posted the direct links on the forums, but forums are not something that's under extended support or something like that. It's community talk.


I'm sorry, did you say you were using Linux? Because, frankly, I find this kind of attitude from someone who can't shut up about linux to be absolutely incredible.

"It's community talk"?? :o

You know what, you're right! It's only by LUCK that Linux exists. It wasn't like Andrew Tanenbaum was giving Torvalds "extended support" for Torvald's little Minix-replacement project. Linux *EXISTS* because Tanenbaum wasn't really maintaining Minix even before the two were locked in the death throes of utterly epic Usenet argumentation. Linux started with "community talk"

Madman wrote:Now imagine what will happen if DRM authentication servers are taken offline. Will the support forums stay on indeffinitely? Are the community contributors even allowed to post a DRM workarounds on forums? I'm more than sure it's against the law.


That's a worrisome question, but it's irrelevant to the NWN + linux situation.

Madman wrote:I don't remember Steam, etc., EULAs, but IIRC it was worded closer to lease.


Ok, first off, EULA stands for "End-User License Agreement" Look it up: EULA

So you've sank your own battleship before we even started to play.

Second off: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Steam Subscriber Agreement wrote:2. LICENSES

A. License Terms.

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Software onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement, including the Subscription Terms. The Software is licensed, not sold.


the words "lease", "leases", "leased" do not appear anywhere in the document.

You really don't know how to use this intarweb contraption, do you? :roll:

Madman wrote:Ok, go buy a COH DVD for 70$, open it, and return it when the servers go out. Tell me how it goes.


If you are buying from shady non-channel resellers, good luck returning it now. There's a reason why you can only find that DVD on third-party Amazon resellers and not at Bestbuy or Gamestop.

Madman wrote:The only links also include home roadrunner com.


Those links add ADDITIONAL functionality that was never present in the bioware linux client. How DARE the Linux community EVER try to improve software without BIG-LETTER *OFFICIAL* EXTENDED SUPPORT. :o :o :o :o :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :o :o :o :o :o

If you are so scared by it, just don't use them.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7765
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:35 pm

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:25 pm

I don't think Madman was complaning that compatibility was the issue. I think he was more complaining that the developer, who in the past hosted the linux compatible binaries was no longer making the effort to make them readily available to the general public.

Yea, while one can find the linux client out there, on rapidshare, and other places, they aren't 100% guaranteed to not be tampered with. The only one I know of who can do that is BioWare - and they aren't making it easy. I dont' look to forums for support for a game, I go to the inappropriately named 'support' section.

Yes, after a hour or so of searching for the client, a end user may be able to find the client on bio-wares site, they don't have it front and center. They don't have a page that says "When we made this in 200* it worked in linux. It may not work with your current linux install. However if you went to say http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-lin ... ributions/ and got an older distro it may work if your hardware has proper backwards compatibility built in. (for more info on this see response to 'glorious')

If they did that, they'd exonerate themselves from these types of posts, and support the product they made 10 years ago, which I will add, is *still* commercially available. They shouldn't expect the end-user to go to the ends of the earth to find something that they used as a selling point for their product.

It's not hard for any linux user to create another linux distro to boot off to play older software that isn't compatible with newer distros... It is much harder for them to find older hardware that supports it.

... Technically Speaking ...

yea, Linux has gone rather fast & loose with their API/ABI (Yea it's technical but JAE loves the ABI term), there is one advantage to it. Older Software for Linux is readily available, and freely downloadable. I dont' give a **** if it's slack 3.0 from 1996 or centos 5.0. It's available. Linux geeks keep that available. If the hardware (soundcards / videocards) don't support the calls in the same way they did 10 years ago, I wouldn't blame the OS developer, I wouldn't blame the game developer. I'd blame the hardware manufacturer. They are the ones who changed the game, not Slackware 4.0 and not BioWare - *NOT* those who wrote the software that worked 10 years ago.

If the hardware vendors want to play fast & loose with standards, and OpenGL is a *standard* then they are the ones who should pay, not the original developer, nor the distro developer.

I think ultimately, my rant is directed towards closed source drivers who only support the latest & greatest. If your' hardware supports a standard, then you better **** well continue to follow that standard until it's deprecated. Not until you feel it's no longer viable to do so. Doing this just cheapens the ideas of 'standards'

moar ...

SuperSpy: I wish I could agree with you on the blizzard comment. Blizzard has proven over the past two releases they don't give a ****** about our rights. They are only concerned with their ability to continually monetize a game long after it's released. Diablo3s Real Money Auction house is one great example. They want to take the profit away of the scammers/cheaters/etc. So they developed the RMH. The only way they can enforce legitimacy of purchases is to enforce always on play. Meaning, if I want to do a solo game while I'm in flight ... too bad. We need to control who you are, to ensure that our secondary money making schemes are profitable. Sorry that you may never have purchased gold from a gold reseller, we're still enforcing these rules on you, mr honest gamer. The Result of these behaviors? I haven't purchased a blizzard product since 2008. I don't plan on it unless they change their viewpoints.

Glorius: I think that Madmans issues stem from the fact that zero of the documentation given to him at the time of the purchase reflect the current truth on where he can get the binaries from a trusted source. I go to http://www.bioware.com/ and start looking. First place I'd go to is the developer of the product, *NOT* google. So I go to bioware.com go to support find legacy games, and hit the link http://support.atari.com/?/Knowledgebase/List .... it brings me to bupkus. Hit that link if you don't believe me. Support for NWN is non-existant. He's gotta go to the 'forum' to find support for his game. Not exactly a direct route. Yea it's logical to computer geeks, but ... don't we want to expand gaming beyond the scope of computer geeks? Don't we want to make it more available to the general public beyond the game consoles? I know I do. The more people doing real PC gaming means the more support I'll have in the future.

Do I empathize with his issues? Absolutely yes. Is he 100% correct in what he says? Probably not. Do I deride him for it? Not unless I'm a BioWare or EA employee where my income is based on public opinion of these two companies. I can't say either way, but I will say your aggro remarks make me think twice about anything else you post. I don't think I'd demonize him and his viewpoints unless I had a very good reason.
DiMaestro
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 827
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2001 6:00 pm
Location: North Dakota NoMoah!

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:45 am

DiMaestro wrote:I don't think Madman was complaning that compatibility was the issue. I think he was more complaining that the developer, who in the past hosted the linux compatible binaries was no longer making the effort to make them readily available to the general public.

Agreed. But my point was that (lack of) compatibility with modern distros makes it largely a moot point. And why name the thread "Why DRM stinks" in that case?

DiMaestro wrote:... Technically Speaking ...

yea, Linux has gone rather fast & loose with their API/ABI (Yea it's technical but JAE loves the ABI term), there is one advantage to it. Older Software for Linux is readily available, and freely downloadable. I dont' give a **** if it's slack 3.0 from 1996 or centos 5.0. It's available. Linux geeks keep that available. If the hardware (soundcards / videocards) don't support the calls in the same way they did 10 years ago, I wouldn't blame the OS developer, I wouldn't blame the game developer. I'd blame the hardware manufacturer. They are the ones who changed the game, not Slackware 4.0 and not BioWare - *NOT* those who wrote the software that worked 10 years ago.

Well, I agree that the developer of the game isn't to blame. But I have no idea how you got the idea that the hardware manufacturer is at fault - they're not the ones defining the Linux ABIs.

DiMaestro wrote:If the hardware vendors want to play fast & loose with standards, and OpenGL is a *standard* then they are the ones who should pay, not the original developer, nor the distro developer.

The problem isn't that hardware vendors are mucking with the semantics of OpenGL and other APIs.

The problem is that a Linux binary from several years ago that relies on any 3rd party libraries is unlikely to load successfully on a modern distro because it will have been linked against versions of shared libraries that are no longer available in the current version of the distro. If you go to drag the old versions of those libraries in you will find that they depend on yet other old libraries, and so on. At some point in attempting to unravel this web of dependencies you discover one that doesn't play nice with the current version of X Windows, or PulseAudio, or whatever... at which point you ask yourself, "Do I really feel like spending a week of evenings trying to sort this out?"

DiMaestro wrote:I think ultimately, my rant is directed towards closed source drivers who only support the latest & greatest. If your' hardware supports a standard, then you better **** well continue to follow that standard until it's deprecated. Not until you feel it's no longer viable to do so. Doing this just cheapens the ideas of 'standards'

While closed-source drivers are indeed a significant problem for Linux, it's not really the problem we're discussing here. The problem of backward application compatibility is often one or more layers above that, in the various run-time libraries (over which the hardware vendor has zero control).
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 36905
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 9:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:16 am

just brew it! wrote:And why name the thread "Why DRM stinks" in that case?


Simple, I was having troubles with a simple scenario - buy a game, go to a support page, download a patch, run.

This was a lot harder than I expected, even though solvable in the end. The biggest problem was that official support was gone, including any links to files and descriptions on what to do. First step - going to vendors page was a spectacular example of not giving a damn about old products.

Therefore, a conclusion, if simple scenario like this is a failure, then we can be pretty damn sure that any DRM game will have a problem in 10 years, with the difference that there won't be a community link to a DRM activation server. Therefore even installation will be impossible.


Now, concerning installation. NWN works rather well, I had minimal issues with it after I found the files. All I had to do was to use distributions SDL path, rather than NWN build, but other than that, zero problems with ABIs and stuff. Probably thanks to static linking.
Core 2 Duo E6300, MSI P45 NEO-F, Club 3D GTX 260, 4Gb DDR2-800Mhz, Audigy X-Fi Fatal1ty Champ1on ed., 0.5Tb+1Tb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 630W AXP, Samsung SyncMaster BX2450, ViewSonic VP171b
Madman
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2317
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:55 am
Location: Latvia

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:22 am

DiMaestro wrote:I don't think Madman was complaning that compatibility was the issue. I think he was more complaining that the developer, who in the past hosted the linux compatible binaries was no longer making the effort to make them readily available to the general public.
But they were. Bioware still hosts the files. A little searching was all that was required.
My specs: GE Spacemaker JVM2052SNSS | 1050.0 Watts | 3 speed turntable | 2.0 cu ft | Quick 1 lb Defrost
Vrock
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 20455
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: The Land of the Looney Lolcats

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:04 pm

Vrock wrote:
DiMaestro wrote:I don't think Madman was complaning that compatibility was the issue. I think he was more complaining that the developer, who in the past hosted the linux compatible binaries was no longer making the effort to make them readily available to the general public.
But they were. Bioware still hosts the files. A little searching was all that was required.

Which is not Avarage Joe level of expertise.

Now imagine 10 years later...

somegeekforum.somevendor-somegame.thread wrote:Ok, if you purchased the game 5 years back, you need to find your backup DVD. It cannot be posted because it's still under copyright protection, even though vendor has been officially brought out by someothervendor. So it's a real shame you couldn't back up the game you brought online, you still need that DVD to install.

Once you have found the original DVD, it won't install, because you need DRM server which will talk with the installation. This is the easy part, you just have to get a new DRM server, and make sure the installation can talk with it.

Oh, but since it's against copyright laws, you are forbidden to create such server, or post a code, or workaround to get the product you brought working.

So, sorry, no game for you :) - Your geek community [A.K.A. unofficial support]

And 10 pages of responses:
Thnx it WORKED!
Core 2 Duo E6300, MSI P45 NEO-F, Club 3D GTX 260, 4Gb DDR2-800Mhz, Audigy X-Fi Fatal1ty Champ1on ed., 0.5Tb+1Tb Seagate Barracuda 7200.12, 630W AXP, Samsung SyncMaster BX2450, ViewSonic VP171b
Madman
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2317
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:55 am
Location: Latvia

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:14 pm

DiMaestro wrote:I don't think Madman was complaning that compatibility was the issue. I think he was more complaining that the developer, who in the past hosted the linux compatible binaries was no longer making the effort to make them readily available to the general public.

Yea, while one can find the linux client out there, on rapidshare, and other places, they aren't 100% guaranteed to not be tampered with. The only one I know of who can do that is BioWare - and they aren't making it easy. I dont' look to forums for support for a game, I go to the inappropriately named 'support' section.


I don't go to forums either, I go to Google. I have difficulty understanding how any technically-inclined person would ever do anything else. Do you like skating uphill?

...and where does the entitlement come from? If providing a linux client for FREE ten years ago means you're obligated to support it for all time and eternity, what do you think will happen people?

At any rate, considering that he bought a TEN YEAR OLD game from GoG.com, why didn't he contact them? The reality is nothing is forever, or do you think all those DOS games on GoG are still supported by their developers? I haven't had any luck calling Microplay recently, have you? :roll:

And, as I've been SCREAMING IN ALL CAPS for like THREE posts now, those files *ARE* on Bioware.com. Heysus Christos people...

DiMaestro wrote:Yes, after a hour or so of searching for the client, a end user may be able to find the client on bio-wares site, they don't have it front and center.


AN HOUR?!?!? Do you know how to use google? Here, let me help you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=linux+nwn+client

It's the SECOND LINK.

DiMaestro wrote:If they did that, they'd exonerate themselves from these types of posts, and support the product they made 10 years ago, which I will add, is *still* commercially available. They shouldn't expect the end-user to go to the ends of the earth to find something that they used as a selling point for their product.


Commercially available through Gog.com. You know, the people he actually bought the game from?

Hey, here's an idea, maybe he should talk to them.

DiMaestro wrote:Glorius: I think that Madmans issues stem from the fact that zero of the documentation given to him at the time of the purchase reflect the current truth on where he can get the binaries from a trusted source.


Wouldn't that be an issue for Gog.com? Do you have any idea how many games on Gog.com are from defunct developers?

DiMaestro wrote:First place I'd go to is the developer of the product, *NOT* google.


That must work *REALLY WELL* on Gog.com. You won't have any problem finding Looking Glass Studios, Microplay, Origin Systems, etc... :roll:

DiMaestro wrote:So I go to bioware.com go to support find legacy games, and hit the link http://support.atari.com/?/Knowledgebase/List .... it brings me to bupkus. Hit that link if you don't believe me.


The only thing I have difficulty believing is that you evidently don't know how to use Google.

DiMaestro wrote:He's gotta go to the 'forum' to find support for his game. Not exactly a direct route.


The forum is on Bioware.com. I'm not really sure how that can be considered "indirect."

DiMaestro wrote: Yea it's logical to computer geeks, but ... don't we want to expand gaming beyond the scope of computer geeks? Don't we want to make it more available to the general public beyond the game consoles? I know I do. The more people doing real PC gaming means the more support I'll have in the future.


Riiiiight, because using Linux clients for ten year old games is "general public" and definitely result in "more people doing real PC gaming." :roll:

DiMaestro wrote:Do I deride him for it? Not unless I'm a BioWare or EA employee where my income is based on public opinion of these two companies.


I obviously don't work for either company, and I guarantee I spend more time playing old PC games than you do. I just have something known as a "grasp on reality."

DiMaestro wrote:I can't say either way, but I will say your aggro remarks make me think twice about anything else you post.


And the outright incompetency that you two gleefully proclaim makes me discount anything you'll say. <shrug>

DiMaestro wrote: I don't think I'd demonize him and his viewpoints unless I had a very good reason.


Sure, because demanding multi-decade "support" (read: ETERNAL WEB LINKS) for FREE low-volume add-ons for games purchased on Gog.com from the developer instead of Gog.com makes sense.

Or something. :roll:

Madman wrote:Which is not Avarage Joe level of expertise.

Now imagine 10 years later...


It's also a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE than the one you are whining about.
Glorious
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7765
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:35 pm

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:49 pm

I think the real WTF here is why is he trying to game on Linux :P
Nutmeg
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 917
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:37 am
Location: The void which binds

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:56 pm

No, there's nothing wrong with trying to game on Linux. What's wrong is being amazed that you have to tinker to get things to work in Linux. It comes with the territory!
Krogoth wrote:Care to enlightenment me?
grantmeaname
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1693
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:49 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:56 pm

grantmeaname wrote:No, there's nothing wrong with trying to game on Linux. What's wrong is being amazed that you have to tinker to get things to work in Linux. It comes with the territory!

It depends.

If you have well-supported hardware, I'd say there's actually less tinkering required on Linux than on Windows. Case in point: At work we have a Verizon cell modem that people can check out and take with them when they travel. On Windows, you need to download and install Verizon's software to get the modem to work. On Linux you just plug it in, and select your service provider from a list the first time you use it.

OTOH, if you have hardware that's not supported by the kernel you're running you may need to compile and install custom drivers from source code. (The system monitoring and audio codec functions on the Asus motherboard in my desktop at work are examples of this.)
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 36905
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 9:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Why DRM stinks

Postposted on Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:02 pm

FireGryphon wrote:Whereas old games just *work* when we install them in a legacy environment, games with DRM require a whole lot more input on behalf of the original developer and publisher in order to work -- input that is not necessarily going to exist beyond the period of the game's initial popularity. This seems to be what the OP is trying to say. Seems like a reasonable fear to me. The OP and all the responses are just speculation, of course, since we don't really know what will happen when the bulk of today's DRM-laden games age.

This was my take as well.
Z68XP-UD4 | 2700K @ 4.4 GHz | 16 GB | 770 | PCP&C Silencer 950 | XSPC RX360 | Heatkiller R3 | D5 + RP-452X2 | HAF 932 | 1 TB WD Black w/ SRT
Waco
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 735
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:14 pm

Previous

Return to Gaming

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest