Xbox One revealed

How we justify all that high-dollar hardware.

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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sat May 25, 2013 4:50 pm

Savyg wrote:Consider that this is comparing to the Xbox 360/PS3
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphi ... -directx/1
Now the PC software architecture – DirectX – has been kind of bent into shape to try to accommodate more and more of the batch calls in a sneaky kind of way. There are the multi-threaded display lists, which come up in DirectX 11 – that helps, but unsurprisingly it only gives you a factor of two at the very best, from what we've seen. And we also support instancing, which means that if you're going to draw a crate, you can actually draw ten crates just as fast as far as DirectX is concerned.

But it's still very hard to throw tremendous variety into a PC game. If you want each of your draw calls to be a bit different, then you can't get over about 2-3,000 draw calls typically - and certainly a maximum amount of 5,000. Games developers definitely have a need for that. Console games often use 10-20,000 draw calls per frame, and that's an easier way to let the artist's vision shine through.'

Until the PC can come to performance parity on the most basic things, it will never be the frontrunner again.


That was an interesting metric, but I don't know if focusing on that one statistic is a wise idea.

There are certain apples to oranges issues - even ignoring the removal of the API overhead.

For example in the PS3 each of the SPUs is a mini-GPU. The Uncharted series notably used the GPU largely just for basic triangle and texture work. The Cell SPUs applied all the post process effects like DoF. PC don't do this, nor do they need to subdivided their resources like this.

Frankly if singular elements like that truly gave consoles a huge advantage you wouldn't have immense graphical disparity in titles like Battlefield 3 or even Crysis 3.

It was a neat article, but I can't help but walk away from it saying it lacked some real meat. It lacked context and I suppose it can afford to lack that context. The article wasn't supposed to be about the power of a console versus the PC. It was supposed to be about if DirectX is a hindrance.

I feel like even in that job it sort of fell down. The comments in the articles did a much better job of talking about the difficulty in coding to metal and reminded people of the old DOS days when developers did touch the metal and the compatibility issues that created. Compatibility issues that have gone on and spurned developers to build complex VMs like DOSBox.

This doesn't even get into the serious security issues of allowing direct hardware access.

I guess in writing and collecting my thoughts on this a little further I'm finding the article a little silly. It compared a closed platform to an open platform, focused on one metric (graphics performance) and managed to ignore all the issues that require the two platforms to be wholly different. Not to mention simply ignoring that developers have built bigger and better versions of their titles for the PC versus the consoles even without access to the metal.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sat May 25, 2013 6:35 pm

I've been reading more on Xbox One online connectivity requirements... Currently it looks like it will require online checks every 24 hours:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/xbox-one-g ... ay-6408714
http://kotaku.com/xbox-one-does-require ... -509164109
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2419320,00.asp
Not an issue for majority of home users, but it still may be in situations such as remote houses not connected to Internet or a mobile installations (such as in vehicles or planes or whatever), where cellphone signal might not available. I really hope MS will re-think this completely unnecessary DRM measure... For example, there's absolutely no need at all to do online checks if the game is already transferred to built-in HDD after the MS services "verified" the legibility of original game disk and its "license to use" during the initial disk insertion.

Also, the Kinect sensor... Yes, it is required to be always plugged in, but apparently you can disable all of its functions in software:
http://www.gamespot.com/features/xbox-o ... n-6408725/
Doesn't really make sense... If I can disable ALL functions in settings - why not let me simply disconnect it? :-? What if the Kinect hardware becomes defective? Will I be forced to buy a new one even if I currently won't have any need for its features? That's... not a very nice thing to do...
Last edited by JohnC on Sat May 25, 2013 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sat May 25, 2013 6:45 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:That was an interesting metric, but I don't know if focusing on that one statistic is a wise idea.

Generally? No. Obviously a current PC *overall* stomps all over the old consoles. But we're talking an eight year old console vs a current PC. This should not still be a problem.

While we're finding hundreds of ways to bypass the issue of what the software is capable of (OpenCL, DirectCompute, CUDA, PhysX on the GPU, whatever) the question of why it still isn't capable remains.

I think the PC has far too many legacy concerns that need to be addressed before it can compete. Usually, consoles are only impressive for two or three years before they're surpassed. I just don't believe in its ability to compete anymore without major changes.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sat May 25, 2013 7:57 pm

Savyg wrote:
Ryu Connor wrote:That was an interesting metric, but I don't know if focusing on that one statistic is a wise idea.

Generally? No. Obviously a current PC *overall* stomps all over the old consoles. But we're talking an eight year old console vs a current PC. This should not still be a problem.
It isn't. As I delineated earlier. Not too sure how you missed that...

My PC from 8 years ago (well, I built it in 2006, but the parts were from 2005), the first PC I ever parted and built all by myself, stomped all over the then-new consoles. FEAR, Quake IV, Oblivion, notably, all ran flawlessly in 1080p, and later that machine held up under the comparatively brutal stress of Mirror's Edge and even Saint's Row 2. The thing about this argument is that it's all FUD. Geometry batching overhead never was a problem.

By the way, http://www.pcper.com/news/Editorial/Epi ... d-Xbox-One

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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 3:20 am

http://www.destructoid.com/ea-ps4-xbox- ... 4360.phtml

"These architectures are a generation ahead of the highest end PC on the market," wrote Teneja on LinedIn. "Our benchmarks on just the video and audio performance are 8-10 times superior to the current gen."


Really?
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 3:34 pm

RtFusion wrote:http://www.destructoid.com/ea-ps4-xbox-one-a-generation-ahead-of-gaming-pcs-254360.phtml

"These architectures are a generation ahead of the highest end PC on the market," wrote Teneja on LinedIn. "Our benchmarks on just the video and audio performance are 8-10 times superior to the current gen."
Yah, truly just epically stupid. I was ranting about that earlier in the thread; in fact, that's actually what set off the whole argument between me and Savyg. Teneja doesn't know anything about anything. People like this should just keep their mouths shut.

Well, not that I buy EA games anymore anyway.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 4:29 pm

auxy wrote: Teneja doesn't know anything about anything. People like this should just keep their mouths shut.

A Chief Technology Officer tends to know tech. I assume they have said benchmark results in front of them.

It is a bit of an odd thing to say, but in some areas (especially audio) it wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 4:33 pm

Savyg wrote:A Chief Technology Officer tends to know tech.
I so wish this were true!

I personally hope he misspoke out of enthusiasm, or perhaps it's even an English-as-a-second-language-ism. Or perhaps he's just shamelessly lying to try and build enthusiasm for the underpowered next generation. OR, as you said, perhaps he knows something we don't, although I doubt it.

In any case, taken 100% at face value, it's still a stupid thing to have said. (。 >艸<)
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 4:34 pm

Yea, it's EA - they have to spin up the sales of console games by any means, especially since they keep alienating more and more PC users with such "wonderful" products like Simcity or BF3 and its "revolutionary" browser-based interface and server browser :wink: Even lying can still work perfectly on simple-minded customers (and you don't have to move away from this thread to find a perfect example) :P :wink:
Last edited by JohnC on Sun May 26, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 4:37 pm

JohnC wrote:Yea, it's EA - they have to spin up the sales of console games by any means, especially since they keep alienating more and more PC users with such "wonderful" products like Simcity or BF3 and its "revolutionary" browser-based interface and server browser :wink:

Funny you mention BF3, cause for everyone complaining about the browser interface I found people who love it.

I had nothing for or against it, it just worked.

When I played Medal of Honor: Warfighter online it offered either way and I still just used the browser.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 4:49 pm

I am glad that you did find the fact that some people might have different preferences than the other :roll: Doesn't change the fact that the clumsy browser-based interface was totally unnecessary and disliked by many people whom I personally know (including myself). Same goes for bolted-on "cloud computing" disaster for Simcity.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 4:54 pm

JohnC wrote:I am glad that you did find the fact that some people might have different preferences than the other :roll: Doesn't change the fact that the clumsy browser-based interface was totally unnecessary and disliked by many people whom I personally know (including myself).

That's kind of my point there though. For all the hand wringing about EA in forums there're millions of satisfied customers out there perfectly happy to buy their stuff.

True of most tech/software companies I imagine. Much like you can't throw a rock without hitting someone who thinks Google is trying to take all your data and use it for nefarious purposes. Assumedly colluding with the aliens. Or Activision is the devil. Or whatever.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 4:59 pm

Savyg wrote:there're millions of satisfied customers out there perfectly happy to buy their stuff.

:lol: Your trolling gets kinda predictably bland, you gotta try harder... Like with actual numbers, which you can, for example, find at Amazon, or Metacritic user reviews, which directly gauge the customer's satisfaction... Oh wait... :o
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:08 pm

JohnC wrote: :lol: Your trolling gets kinda predictably bland, you gotta try harder... Like with actual numbers, which you can, for example, find at Amazon, or Metacritic user reviews, which directly gauge the customer's satisfaction... Oh wait... :o

The only actual numbers I know are how many people still bought the products even with all THAT trolling.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:22 pm

People purchasing products does not mean they will all (or even the majority) be satisfied with it... And with games, it's not very easy to get a refund for them in case if you won't like them, especially for digital versions ;-) So while the generic sales numbers are useful for fogging up the brains of investors they do not represent the quality of the games itself or whether the majority of buyers will actually like it.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:26 pm

Savyg wrote:The only actual numbers I know are how many people still bought the products even with all THAT trolling.
In the case of BF3, it's still a good game, it just has a stupid implementation of one feature. One important feature, admittedly, but it does WORK, it's just badly done. You can't really get the kind of crazy, huge-wide-open map vehicular/infantry multiplayer action you get in BF3 anywhere else, so people that want that are more or less stuck, anyway. (Don't even bring up ARMA, that game is terrible and the only reason anyone plays it is for DayZ.) (⌒▽⌒)

In the case of Simcity, there's a Kotaku article pointing out that most of the sales were preorders and day-1 purchases before the stuff really hit the fan. EVEN NOW there are features that were in at launch which are disabled because of their ridiculous cloud nonsense. I almost pre-ordered that game myself; I'm SO GLAD I didn't now. (Well, to be fair, I was never REALLY going to, because Origin, but I really really wanted to!) Simcity also benefits from the "nowhere else to get this" factor that BF3 has, at least until that Kickstarter'd Simcity knockoff comes out.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:35 pm

JohnC wrote:So while the generic sales numbers are useful for fogging up the brains of investors

IOW, the only metric that matters to publicly-traded companies, who have a duty under law to provide the best return to their stockholders. If you want to make a publicly-traded game house change its ways, don't buy the game and force down quarterly Earnings Per Share (EPS). If they're meeting their quarterly earnings targets they don't care one whit about consumer dissatisfaction. If they sacrificed quarterly earnings to make the gamers happy they'd likely get sued by a consortium of stockholders for "intentionally" tanking quarterly EPS.

You have to understand that the money will always be more important than the gamer. Read it, live it, grok it.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:40 pm

auxy wrote:In the case of Simcity, there's a Kotaku article pointing out that most of the sales were preorders and day-1 purchases before the stuff really hit the fan..

Sales started around 400k and are now around 1.6 million.

It's also bundled with some AMD procs, which obviously inflates the numbers but they wouldn't even bother if it was really a 'horrible game that noone will ever want to play' as the forumgoers love to say.

I've been playing a lot of every version since launch. 3.0 was the first that felt truly release quality I admit, but I still love the social experience without the 'buy more energy and more stuff and more clothes and more whatever' in 'social' games or the vast timesuck of MMOs.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:47 pm

Savyg wrote:Sales started around 400k and are now around 1.6 million.
Fair enough. The article I'm talking about was a couple of weeks after launch.
Savyg wrote:It's also bundled with some AMD procs, which obviously inflates the numbers but they wouldn't even bother if it was really a 'horrible game that noone will ever want to play' as the forumgoers love to say.
Well, they also bundled Blood Dragon which by all accounts I've heard is pretty bad. Haven't played it or Simcity myself, but watching videos of both they seem pretty bad. If that's your thing, whatever; I'd rather go play a good game.
Savyg wrote:I've been playing a lot of every version since launch. 3.0 was the first that felt truly release quality I admit, but I still love the social experience without the 'buy more energy and more stuff and more clothes and more whatever' in 'social' games or the vast timesuck of MMOs.
Some of us like the "and more stuff and more clothes and more whatever" in social games. Just saying. ヽ(´ー`)┌
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 5:50 pm

auxy wrote:Well, they also bundled Blood Dragon which by all accounts I've heard is pretty bad. Haven't played it or Simcity myself, but watching videos of both they seem pretty bad. If that's your thing, whatever; I'd rather go play a good game.
Some of us like the "and more stuff and more clothes and more whatever" in social games. Just saying. ヽ(´ー`)┌

Blood Dragons pretty good, its just corny as all hell. Intentionally. I intend to finish it someday, but I'm not that into the 80s nostalgia crap to begin with.

and...scary
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 7:06 pm

Savyg wrote:Blood Dragons pretty good, its just corny as all hell. Intentionally. I intend to finish it someday, but I'm not that into the 80s nostalgia crap to begin with.
Hehe, me either. Probably has to do with being a child of the 90s/00s. I think I'm too young to "get" it.
Savyg wrote:and...scary
Well, as stereotypical as it might be, some of us are, you know, female, and like to play dressup. That's the main reason Champions Online is still my favorite MMORPG! The gameplay is middling and the interface borders on wretched, but the graphics are nice and it has the most versatile (if not the deepest) character customziation of any game to date.
Sadly the D&D license is much bigger than the Champions license, so Cryptic is focusing on Neverwinter now, which has left Champions to languish without a significant update for many months. (  ̄д ̄;) Neverwinter is fun, but the setting is so limited in terms of concepts... (not to mention the way they butchered D&D 4th ed's mechanics ... but that's fodder for another thread.)

Back to console games -- EA announced they have "nothing" in the works for the Wii U, which is pretty bad; I wonder why that system has garnered such ire in the hearts and eyes of the gaming populace? Sure, it's barely more powerful than the Xbox 360; sure, the tablet controller is misbegotten and ill-advised, but it's not as if it's not A) still the most powerful console out right now and B) still perfectly capable of playing games without using the goofy tablet thing. It's also tiny and cute! I want one a lot more than I want an Xbox One right now...
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 7:27 pm

Well, you can still enjoy WiiU without all the recent or future garbage from EA :wink: Activision is still on board and there will still be "Cawa Doody" coming for it :wink:
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sun May 26, 2013 7:43 pm

JohnC wrote:Well, you can still enjoy WiiU without all the recent or future garbage from EA :wink: Activision is still on board and there will still be "Cawa Doody" coming for it :wink:
I don't even play Cawadoody! (*´∀`*) I would like a new Rock Band game, though...
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:17 pm

Anyvey I just preordered my Xbox One so I guess it'll be a few years before I come back to PC gaming. I might still get BF4 and other FPSes on PC, but haven't decided yet.

Still a few games to preorder that haven't made it to the stores yet, but Quantum Break, Watch Dogs, Kinect Sports: Rivals and Need for Speed: Rivals (hehe) are on the way as well.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:38 pm

Microsoft was using HP PC's with Windows 7 and Nvidia GTX cards as fake XBOnes for E3? Why would such a highly reputable and honest company do something like this?
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Xbox-O ... 56737.html

:lol:
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:00 pm

Not a surprise. Hideo Kojima noted that MGSV was developed on PC and he hopes for a PC release eventually.

Sony likely did the same thing.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:29 pm

Yea, but why Win 7 and Nvidia GPU's? :-? Shouldn't the demo kits be using the OS/hardware/drivers similar to devkits? :-? Especially for exclusives?

Edit: found this Tweet by Braid dev:
https://twitter.com/Jonathan_Blow/statu ... 4776730624
"We worked very hard to get our game running on the actual PS4 hardware and operating system in time for the show. As did many other devs"
Seems like not every devs were using regular PC's for developing the console versions :wink:
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:42 pm

JohnC wrote:Microsoft was using HP PC's with Windows 7 and Nvidia GTX cards as fake XBOnes for E3? Why would such a highly reputable and honest company do something like this?
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Xbox-O ... 56737.html

:lol:


That whole article is stupid. First, since when do HP PCs come in black windowed enclosures that look EXACTLY like a Corsair 650D. Second, most if not all consoles ever demoed early like this don't run off the actual console, but rather on PCs/developer kits of some sort. Third, who cares if it is an Nvidia graphics card. The whole point of the demonstration was to provide a preview for the games, not the Xbox One itself.
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:13 am

MS fail just keep getting worse... With an Xbox360, MS could issue an account ban or even hardware ban - both of which would prevent you from accessing Xbox Live Gold service BUT you would still be able to play your purchased games (either offline or using different account). With new Xbox One it is different - any ban will result in a ban of the licenses to any games that have licenses tied to your account:
https://twitter.com/XboxSupport1/status ... 8606812160

Soo... Yea, make sure to NEVER share your account with anyone (and preferably not even the hardware itself), make sure to NEVER share the purchased game with your friends, make sure to never accidentally "exploit" some buggy feature or to call someone a bad word while being online and make sure to have your password as long as possible, using random letters/numbers and pray that the Xbox Live services will never get "hacked" in any way, or you might lose much more than your precious "achievements" and score points :wink: MS might consider allowing you to play your purchased games again (after a lengthy appeal process)... Or they may not. :wink:


Edit: Hmm... Not a day goes by and MS does another "reversal" of what one person said before:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/15/majo ... rs-will-a/
Now it appears banned users will still have access to their game licenses... But what about previous post on official Twitter? :-? I guess we need to wait for a new "Terms Of Service" update to see the actual information...
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Re: Xbox One revealed

Postposted on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:59 pm

Buwhahaha! http://www.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/xbox- ... -features/

That actually took longer than I thought it was. Shame about the digital game sharing going away, that would have been a nice feature especially now that Steam looks to be adopting something similar.
TR BBQ ~XI~ has come and gone but you can relive it by checking out this gallery!
drfish
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