TR Forums

Hey Guys,

I'm not necessarily personally in the buying phase but in the preliminary research phase of trying to find a full fledged windows 8 mobile device. I'm looking for something that might classify as a little unique(if it even exists), I was wondering if a 13" tablet that had similar features to a MS surface pro 2 might exist? Sure it can have a yoga type hidden keyboard functionality to it but I want to be able to use it for sketching and the pro is ever so delicately too small for these things but the stylus is the best I think is out there. The Surface pro is 3-5 inches smaller than I really care for.

I guess I mean to ask is it the only device in town for what I want right now or is there something in that 13-15" range?

I see that there is a ThinkPad Yoga coming out eventually:

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/th ... ries/yoga/

Cool thing is you can really get a beastly machine in that. Sad thing is I think the stylus is the pressure sensitive element rather than the touch surface on the display, making it good but not as good as a MS surface pro.

There there is the Yoga 2 Pro, a DAMN sexy machine, if only it had solid stylus support:

You can refer to the 13" tablet discussion for some background knowledge.

To me, 15" tablets will be to heavy to be held like a tablet. Not sure I have seen even a 13" one with a stylus. And then you have the Wacom vs the world debate for the digitizer, if you need to be pressure sensitive.

kamikaziechameleon wrote:

I see that there is a ThinkPad Yoga coming out eventually:

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/th ... ries/yoga/

Cool thing is you can really get a beastly machine in that. Sad thing is I think the stylus is the pressure sensitive element rather than the touch surface on the display, making it good but not as good as a MS surface pro.

There there is the Yoga 2 Pro, a DAMN sexy machine, if only it had solid stylus support:

The Yoga is amazing, but its display technology is designed to produce inaccurate colors, so it's probably not the best choice if art is your thing.

What do you mean by it's 'designed to produce inaccurate colors'?

Flying Fox wrote:

To me, 15" tablets will be to heavy to be held like a tablet. Not sure I have seen even a 13" one with a stylus. And then you have the Wacom vs the world debate for the digitizer, if you need to be pressure sensitive.

I'd like one because it'd be less awkward to carry around in your own house than a laptop, while keeping power and connectivity up. Do I need one? Probably not...

MadManOriginal wrote:

What do you mean by it's 'designed to produce inaccurate colors'?

After its release, the 'net was ablaze with people complaining that there was something wrong with their screens -- instead of being bright and vibrant, yellows were coming up murky and brownish. It seemed like a flaw, but it was odd because almost everyone reported the problem. Lenovo eventually revealed that the colors were not a flaw, but a result of the way the colors are generated by the panel, which is based on new technology.

The Yoga 2 screens are very nice and detailed, but the colors aren't accurate enough for any sort of graphic work.

The QHD screen of the Yoga 2 Pro (3200x1800) leverage a Samsung Pentile Matrix RGBW panel.

This means each pixel contains four sub-pixels. Red, Green, Blue, and Blue with Yellow phosphor (White).

It can leverage that extra sub-pixel to provide a brighter display for less juice, but the consequence is imperfect color accuracy. Lenovo states in the above article it can be mitigated by giving up some power efficiency, but doesn't clarify how effective their mitigation is.

The Samsung Ativ that uses the QHD panels suffers from this same flaw. As Samsung is apparently the sole source for QHD 13" panels at this time and they all use this Pentile Matrix RGBW design.

Ryu Connor wrote:

The QHD screen of the Yoga 2 Pro (3200x1800) leverage a Samsung Pentile Matrix RGBW panel.

This means each pixel contains four sub-pixels. Red, Green, Blue, and Blue with Yellow phosphor (White).

It can leverage that extra sub-pixel to provide a brighter display for less juice, but the consequence is imperfect color accuracy. Lenovo states in the above article it can be mitigated by giving up some power efficiency, but doesn't clarify how effective their mitigation is.

The Samsung Ativ that uses the QHD panels suffers from this same flaw. As Samsung is apparently the sole source for QHD 13" panels at this time and they all use this Pentile Matrix RGBW design.

This is disappointing. Hopefully a competitor will rise up and challenge them.

Flying Fox wrote:

You can refer to the 13" tablet discussion for some background knowledge.

To me, 15" tablets will be to heavy to be held like a tablet. Not sure I have seen even a 13" one with a stylus. And then you have the Wacom vs the world debate for the digitizer, if you need to be pressure sensitive.

Tends to be that every review I've read has called a non wacom stylus "adequate" not a real endorsement. Not when you drop so much coin. The more I look the more it looks like the surface pro 2 has a sweet spot hammered out by lack of price competitive products on the market. The Wacom 13" tablet is just too expensive and doesn't have current hardware inside it.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/19/waco ... n-tablets/

Ok, spent some time with the MS surface pro 2 this last weekend. HOLLY CRAP its awesome. I'd love a 15" version of that too. I'd get both! It was a better experience than the first time I used a tablet. Blew my mind! I wish there was some sort of standard Wacom digitizer you could use with a normal capacitive product cause then a Retina 15" Yoga with one of those or something. At any rate I was hooked. I find the finger input sorta clumsy for productivity and the stylus just blends the best of laptop and touch screen into one awesome environment. Wish there was a built in holster for it though.

I have a Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1, and at first I used the stylus a lot, now I rarely touch it. The screen is really too small to use effectively on creative work other than simple sketches and the like. Don't purchase based on a touch stylus, use an external drawing pad instead if you intend to do that.

Also, for me, having the hunk of glass between the pen tip and the result was more odd than using a separate tablet that you don't look at while drawing.

HP's Split X2 seems pretty nice but I haven't spent actual time with it.
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/ads/detachables/products.html

Also I have no idea what the colors will be on it's screen.

liquidsquid wrote:

I have a Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1, and at first I used the stylus a lot, now I rarely touch it. The screen is really too small to use effectively on creative work other than simple sketches and the like. Don't purchase based on a touch stylus, use an external drawing pad instead if you intend to do that.

Also, for me, having the hunk of glass between the pen tip and the result was more odd than using a separate tablet that you don't look at while drawing.

As I said, productivity with fingers in real desktop apps or style apps like Google apps is super clumsy, slow and painful. The stylus saves the day, IMHO. Not just for drawing and doodling, that is just plain fun not productivity. I mean for working through excell on a 10" screen. Blew my mind. I also tried the Galaxy note and was similarly impressed but the stylus for the windows product was better, the integrated eraser function was really cool and I think works best when using the note taking functions. Also the lack of one note working with the stylus on the Galaxy hurts it IMHO. When MS figures out mobile finally I'll get a galaxy. Until then for a few more bucks I can get a real computer.

paco wrote:

HP's Split X2 seems pretty nice but I haven't spent actual time with it.
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/ads/detachables/products.html

Also I have no idea what the colors will be on it's screen.

Interesting but I didn't see stylus input via digitizer as a feature???

Seems we will start getting these soon.

I'm shopping for similar and I really liked the Sony Flip
http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/sony-sony-vaio-flip-14-laptop-aluminum-silver-intel-core-i5-4200u-500gb-hdd-8gb-ram-windows-8-svf14n15cds/10276342.aspx?path=50073053ba01b18c203708729597a78cen02

Arvald wrote:

I'm shopping for similar and I really liked the Sony Flip
http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/sony-sony-vaio-flip-14-laptop-aluminum-silver-intel-core-i5-4200u-500gb-hdd-8gb-ram-windows-8-svf14n15cds/10276342.aspx?path=50073053ba01b18c203708729597a78cen02

The new surface pro 3 is a dream. Price being my only contention I think the entry price is a rip off and the target hardware is overpriced. But the specs are dead on for what I want.

The Surface 3 sits in my mind this way:

1. It gets too hot, then throttles back and takes a performance hit each and every time it's strained for extended periods
2. We're only about 6 months away from MS potentially replacing the Haswells with Broadwells, which will mitigate the heat problem
3. It's super expensive for what you're getting

I keep telling myself that in the world of computers there's always something better around the corner so (2) isn't a real reason to wait, but it'd knock off (1), and make (3) a little easier to accept. If only there'd be a sale, it might be worth it...

FireGryphon wrote:

The Surface 3 sits in my mind this way:

1. It gets too hot, then throttles back and takes a performance hit each and every time it's strained for extended periods
2. We're only about 6 months away from MS potentially replacing the Haswells with Broadwells, which will mitigate the heat problem
3. It's super expensive for what you're getting

I keep telling myself that in the world of computers there's always something better around the corner so (2) isn't a real reason to wait, but it'd knock off (1), and make (3) a little easier to accept. If only there'd be a sale, it might be worth it...

I just saw your response. I ordered a surface pro 3 last night with a $300 dollar discount. I hope it works out a little better than your sumation, but thanks for the input non the less.

Most notably horrid thing about the windows tablets these days is the intel graphics that powers them. Intel graphics just plain suck! They can't even do decent numbers for games like star craft 2 or diablo 3 and those are old flipping games with primitive tech driving them.

At $300 off the SP3 is a little easier to swallow. At this point I probably would have waited a bit for the next iteration, but I don't have a huge need for it right now. As it stands the SP3 is a great machine, and I want to hear how you like it after you've used it for a couple months. I imagine it'll be downright luxurious.

Shame if that's true about gaming. I would think modern soc's have good, even if not great gpu's, but I guess we can't have everything. The SP3 is about the best mix of features and performance for a tablet that can do real work, so gaming takes a back seat.

kamikaziechameleon wrote:

Most notably horrid thing about the windows tablets these days is the intel graphics that powers them. Intel graphics just plain suck! They can't even do decent numbers for games like star craft 2 or diablo 3 and those are old flipping games with primitive tech driving them.

This is what keeps me using discrete graphics. Blizzard isn't really making anything strenuous, but these games still don't run acceptably well even at minimum configuration. StarCraft can run "okay" at minimum details, I guess, but it's beyond butt-ugly.

derFunkenstein wrote:

kamikaziechameleon wrote:

Most notably horrid thing about the windows tablets these days is the intel graphics that powers them. Intel graphics just plain suck! They can't even do decent numbers for games like star craft 2 or diablo 3 and those are old flipping games with primitive tech driving them.

This is what keeps me using discrete graphics. Blizzard isn't really making anything strenuous, but these games still don't run acceptably well even at minimum configuration. StarCraft can run "okay" at minimum details, I guess, but it's beyond butt-ugly.

Are you talking about the older Intel graphics? I think the new ones are supposed to run even SC2 decently. On the SP3 you just need to turn down some eyecandies and resolution (remember the SP3 has quite high native resolution to begin with)? Seems like Civ 5 played ok as well.
http://www.surfaceforums.net/threads/st ... -i7.10921/

Flying Fox wrote:

derFunkenstein wrote:

kamikaziechameleon wrote:

Most notably horrid thing about the windows tablets these days is the intel graphics that powers them. Intel graphics just plain suck! They can't even do decent numbers for games like star craft 2 or diablo 3 and those are old flipping games with primitive tech driving them.

This is what keeps me using discrete graphics. Blizzard isn't really making anything strenuous, but these games still don't run acceptably well even at minimum configuration. StarCraft can run "okay" at minimum details, I guess, but it's beyond butt-ugly.

Are you talking about the older Intel graphics? I think the new ones are supposed to run even SC2 decently. On the SP3 you just need to turn down some eyecandies and resolution (remember the SP3 has quite high native resolution to begin with)? Seems like Civ 5 played ok as well.
http://www.surfaceforums.net/threads/st ... -i7.10921/

Friday I tried to give SC2 a swing... Total mess. Intel integrated might have finally achieved the ability to play half life and youtube ok, but it can't handle a primitive isometric game from 3 years ago well at all. It seriously chuggs. I googled performance for the intel solution in the SP3, its one of the best options available but it still is horrid to do any level of gaming on. Honestly i suspect the GPU on my nexus 5 is more powerful, lol.

This is somewhat left field but the Motion R12 is pretty good and would do what you need. Although it might be out of your price range (2k+). I've not colour tested the screen, but it seems pretty accurate to me and I am picky with monitors.

https://www.motioncomputing.com/au/prod ... ablets/r12

dragmor wrote:

This is somewhat left field but the Motion R12 is pretty good and would do what you need. Although it might be out of your price range (2k+). I've not colour tested the screen, but it seems pretty accurate to me and I am picky with monitors.

https://www.motioncomputing.com/au/prod ... ablets/r12

Got to say that is out of left field but its also flipping awesome.

So I'm a little underwhelmed by the surface pro 3's performance. I'd love something with a discrete GPU option in the $800-$1,300 range. I might return this and swap for something else. Can you guys update me on any recommendations there? Allot has changed in the market place since I started this thread. Note I'm open to a convertible but I'd still LOVE to have a quality stylus option.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT/ADDON:

In my search I found nothing that includes a discrete GPU and a digitizer.

Its super annoying how expensive windows computers are, and how generally inferior many of their components are to a darn $400 dollar ipad or Andriod tablet. Those pack amazing screens, great cameras, powerful integrated graphics, amazing build qulaity, compared to intel/windows and some awesome battery life/power efficiency. I can't imagine the major issue with windows is some sort of arbitrary darn intel limitation... Meanwhile AMD is totally not present in a meaningful way because intel still is trouncing them in the processor end of this business. Gosh this is like a flash back to laptops 10 years ago... grossly under powered next to a bargain basement desktop all over again.

Wanted to update this, I have figured how to tweak the comp and learned the stylus, and the new version of one note... its pretty awesome. Logging some good hours on SC2, and D3 on this thing plus all the stuff you always hoped you could do with a tablet. I'm a believer now.

Another note, the biggest disappointment of the surface pro 3 is the quality of the expensive keyboard attachment. The keys are mushy and the touch pad is atrocious. The touchpad has a issue were in there are no buttons yet the pad itself has a mechanical left and right click. More often than not you right click when you mean to left click and vice versa. Also with the buttons being part of the pad you think, "oh well I'll just mouse with my right hand and click with my left" or something of the sort but remember the buttons are touch so having more than a single digit messes it up so that doesn't work. End of the day the attachment is about the same as using the device w/o it. The greatest gain from the attachment is the increased realestate when typing. But given the new hinge of the surface I honestly wouldn't recommend dealing with the keyboard cover and would instead spend the same money on the microsoft blue tooth mouse and keyboard for it. Then you get dramatically improved typing and mousing when its called for, while having a thinner and more mobile device the rest of the time.