Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

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Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:40 pm

I sat in a nearly empty Microsoft Store this morning and played with the Surface Pro 3. I wanted to see how it felt in use, specifically as a laptop, but I ended up learning about some other quirks I wanted to share, and get some feedback on:

1. The SP3 works decently on my lap, believe it or not. It's not quite as sturdy as a traditional, solid laptop feels on my legs, but I was able to use it on my lap just fine for a brief period. It does have to sit somewhat high on the thigh in order for the kickstand to work, but guess what: I compared it right next to real laptops, and I ended up using them in the same place to be comfortable. Overall I say that the Surface 3 can work on a lap if you need it, but it requires more balance and tweaking than a regular laptop, so you probably shouldn't get one if you end up using your lap as a desk on a regular basis. Microsoft needs to engineer a better solution to truly make the Surface a laptop replacement.

2. The biggest drawback of laptop functionality is the keyboard's feel. The keys are very tough to hit right compared with more traditional laptops at the MS Store. I could probably lower my error rate on the Type Cover 3 with some practice, but there's no way I could use it full time.

3. The trackpad isn't as good as Apple's, but it's passable. It is cramped for the vertical space. Overall an improvement over the last iteration.

4. The Windows/Home button is on the side instead of the bottom, and it's not an actual push-button, but a pressure-sensitive button. It sits right where I grab the screen to adjust it or hold it. Every couple of minutes I was jolted back to the Start Screen and it took me a while to realize it was because I was accidentally pressing the Home button. Sometimes my hand would naturally hit it as part of touching the screen. Alt-Tab is the only saving grace. This problem was annoying enough in the 40 minutes I used the SP3 that I won't buy the device unless there's some way to disable it (the store staff said there wasn't, but there'll probably be a hack for it).

5. I preferred the previous iteration pen interface, but this one works fine. The pen buttons weren't working right, and the store staff told me this was because there was a problem with Bluetooth in the store. Sounds fishy, and I hope MS can work out whatever problem there is with the new pen system. There's also no place to store the pen. The salesman said you can let it stick to the magnetic power connector mount, but this isn't really secure and still dangles off the side. How the heck are you supposed to carry the pen around without breaking it?

6. The touchscreen doesn't work correctly, and I'm surprised none of the reviews mentioned this. If you use your finger to, say, band select a bunch of things on the screen, the screen will randomly think I've lifted your finger even when I haven't, which means my selection gets messed up. This problem does not exist when using the pen to band select, only my finger. It is repeatable and very annoying.

7. Related to (6), the screen doesn't always register swipes properly, especially on the 'shut down' screen. The store staff blamed this on a bad demo image, and I hope they're right.

8. There are too few ports for this to be a laptop replacement. I'd like to see 3xUSB and 1xmDP at the very least.

9. My takeaway is that the SP3 gets so much right that I can't understand how the above issues made it through to the final release. I went into the store thinking the only problem was with lap balance, but that ended up not being an issue. The issues instead are the touch input anomalies and the annoyingly-placed Home button. Either one of them would make me think twice about buying the SP3, but together they made my experience so full of annoyance that I won't buy one based on them.

Has anyone else played with the Surface Pro 3 and care to weigh in on these notes?
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:09 pm

I haven't played with the new Surface but I was given a free gen.1 Surface RT which lives (ueslessly) in the drawer at work most of the time. WinRT was such an unmitigated disaster that I just can't find a use for it (alongside competing devices that do everything it does, and more, but only better).

The touch cover is a nightmare. Perhaps they've improved it but mine is so much worse than any other keyboard that you have to wonder why MS even bothered; the on-screen keyboard is almost comparable.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:33 pm

FireGryphon wrote:There's also no place to store the pen. The salesman said you can let it stick to the magnetic power connector mount, but this isn't really secure and still dangles off the side. How the heck are you supposed to carry the pen around without breaking it?

There is a loop for you to hang the pen in on the Type Cover. This means that if you are just using the device as a tablet and you remove the Type Cover, there will be no place to store it.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:52 pm

I'm actually planning on dumping my Nexus 10 for a Surface Pro 3 this year, so I'll probably be in and out of this thread quite a bit.

My use case is a little different, though, I'm looking for the SP3 to be a tablet+ instead of a full laptop. I'm keeping my Precision M4800, it's a lovely laptop, but very large/heavy. Something itty bitty and light would make a great companion. One for use at the desk, more portable than mobile, as base station, with the SP3 acting as the highly mobile companion.

Good idea about test driving in a store. I'll have to see if there's an MS store nearby, and what they have to try out.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:52 am

Flying Fox wrote:There is a loop for you to hang the pen in on the Type Cover. This means that if you are just using the device as a tablet and you remove the Type Cover, there will be no place to store it.


The Type Covers on display at the MS Store did not have the loop. None of them did. Even with the loop the design is less than optimal, but the display units did not have any loops.


Forge wrote:My use case is a little different, though, I'm looking for the SP3 to be a tablet+ instead of a full laptop.
...
Good idea about test driving in a store. I'll have to see if there's an MS store nearby, and what they have to try out.


When you do, replicate the problems I found and see if you can live with them. The store reps were able to replicate them when I was there, but they didn't know why it was happening.

Problem #1: To replicate the bugs on the touchscreen, press and drag with your finger to band select. After some random amount of time, the screen will think you've removed your finger, even if you haven't. Sometimes the touch doesn't register at all, right from when you touch it.

Problem #2: Even glancing your hand over the Home button activates it. Super disruptive.

Let us know what you find.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:32 am

Gabe from Penny Arcade reviewed the SP3 and said you can disable the 'keyboard' that controls the start button in device manager, but that also kills all the hardware buttons.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:23 am

FireGryphon wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:There is a loop for you to hang the pen in on the Type Cover. This means that if you are just using the device as a tablet and you remove the Type Cover, there will be no place to store it.


The Type Covers on display at the MS Store did not have the loop. None of them did. Even with the loop the design is less than optimal, but the display units did not have any loops.

May be some are prototype units? Hard to believe they make 2 variants one with and another without the loop.

http://www.tabletpcreview.com/tabletrev ... -3-review/

Since you have other deal breakers, I guess this is a minor point anyway for you. For those that are interested should definitely check the loop before they buy. I can understand why they find no place to store it. For one the pen is now thicker, feeling like those expensive (the pen itself is indeed not cheap, plus all the batteries required to power both ends of the pen) classic pens that will add to the weight if allowed to be tucked into the tablet. Another is that looking at the teardown pictures, the thinness really creates no space at all for creating a hoist for the pen within the tablet body. Ultrathin form factors are all about compromises. Unfortunately for the SP3 the pen has to go external. For the new use cases that they are trying to sell (education, medical), it is actually not the best case scenario.

I wonder when Broadwell comes whether they can reclaim some space in there, or they will try to make it even thinner? This anorexic race is getting a bit out of hand like female models a few years back. :o
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:33 pm

See, I want to use it as a photography companion, where it would allow for quick review and quick but detailed edits of images on the go. The high-resolution pen-enabled and color calibrated screen is high on my list, and the fact that it can do everything but play heavy games makes it desirable. Hell, I just found that Samsung is making microSD cards that write fast enough to keep up with my Canon 6D when used with the included adapter, and they're cheap!

Also, I'd be able to use it as an 'external Live View monitor' for critical portraiture, landscape, and macro work, where I could have the SP3 on a stand and tethered, able to both check critical focus in real-time and to control the camera for complex focus and exposure bracketing effects, automating the process to some degree.

And I'd use it for school; it'd go in a messenger sling with my mirrorless kit and a book or two.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:00 pm

Looks like another unsurprisingly mediocre and highly overpriced device from Microsoft. I'll be sticking to normal tablet and a normal laptop (13" MacBook Pro with both OSX and Win8.1) for all my mobile needs for a little bit longer.

Airmantharp wrote:detailed edits of images on the go

I believe such device is called "Cintiq Companion" ;-)
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:45 pm

JohnC wrote:Looks like another unsurprisingly mediocre and highly overpriced device from Microsoft. I'll be sticking to normal tablet and a normal laptop (13" MacBook Pro with both OSX and Win8.1) for all my mobile needs for a little bit longer.

Airmantharp wrote:detailed edits of images on the go

I believe such device is called "Cintiq Companion" ;-)


I'll look at it a bit later, but on the face it looks a smidgen over-priced :).
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:11 pm

Airmantharp wrote:
JohnC wrote:Looks like another unsurprisingly mediocre and highly overpriced device from Microsoft. I'll be sticking to normal tablet and a normal laptop (13" MacBook Pro with both OSX and Win8.1) for all my mobile needs for a little bit longer.

Airmantharp wrote:detailed edits of images on the go

I believe such device is called "Cintiq Companion" ;-)


I'll look at it a bit later, but on the face it looks a smidgen over-priced :).

Well, it's still a Windows-based device so half of its price is probably the cost of Windows 8 license :wink: :P
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:43 am

Airmantharp wrote:See, I want to use it as a photography companion, where it would allow for quick review and quick but detailed edits of images on the go. The high-resolution pen-enabled and color calibrated screen is high on my list, and the fact that it can do everything but play heavy games makes it desirable. Hell, I just found that Samsung is making microSD cards that write fast enough to keep up with my Canon 6D when used with the included adapter, and they're cheap!

Also, I'd be able to use it as an 'external Live View monitor' for critical portraiture, landscape, and macro work, where I could have the SP3 on a stand and tethered, able to both check critical focus in real-time and to control the camera for complex focus and exposure bracketing effects, automating the process to some degree.

And I'd use it for school; it'd go in a messenger sling with my mirrorless kit and a book or two.


That's an awesome use case, but the unreliable touch sensitivity and the falsely-activated home button make it pretty annoying to use for any purpose. I advise spending a half hour or so in the MS store with the SP3 to see if you like it. I will take the MS store reps words for it that the issues with pen functionality were just a blip at that store and not a larger problem.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:35 pm

FireGryphon wrote:That's an awesome use case, but the unreliable touch sensitivity and the falsely-activated home button make it pretty annoying to use for any purpose. I advise spending a half hour or so in the MS store with the SP3 to see if you like it. I will take the MS store reps words for it that the issues with pen functionality were just a blip at that store and not a larger problem.


Oh definitely- I do my research before I 'invest' in a tool that depreciates as fast as new cars :).
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:34 pm

Airmantharp wrote:
FireGryphon wrote:That's an awesome use case, but the unreliable touch sensitivity and the falsely-activated home button make it pretty annoying to use for any purpose. I advise spending a half hour or so in the MS store with the SP3 to see if you like it. I will take the MS store reps words for it that the issues with pen functionality were just a blip at that store and not a larger problem.


Oh definitely- I do my research before I 'invest' in a tool that depreciates as fast as new cars :).


...and please post your findings here. I want to like the SP3, but for its price I want to make sure there are no design flaws. If you find the issues are improved or fixed, or if you find other issues, I'd like to know. Thanks!
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:42 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
Airmantharp wrote:
FireGryphon wrote:That's an awesome use case, but the unreliable touch sensitivity and the falsely-activated home button make it pretty annoying to use for any purpose. I advise spending a half hour or so in the MS store with the SP3 to see if you like it. I will take the MS store reps words for it that the issues with pen functionality were just a blip at that store and not a larger problem.


Oh definitely- I do my research before I 'invest' in a tool that depreciates as fast as new cars :).


...and please post your findings here. I want to like the SP3, but for its price I want to make sure there are no design flaws. If you find the issues are improved or fixed, or if you find other issues, I'd like to know. Thanks!


I'll note that I'm not in a hurry; I'm looking at starting school in the fall, and that's when I'd be up for a mobile computing upgrade, but I will keep you guys in mind :).
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:36 pm

A couple of excellent video reviews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8nABpcKun8 (shorter, the poster also posted a few related videos detailing things like the pen)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfpl5V7DMl4

Source: http://forums.wpcentral.com/microsoft-s ... o-3-a.html

---

Not so cool things I have been reading so far:
- Heat: the fan is smaller and is noisier. So maxing the CPU out all the time is not a good idea. The i7 models may be even worse? We really need broadwell on this one.
- The friction hinge got loose for a few users.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:07 pm

I've been reading that the SP3 seems to throttle a lot when heavy 3D+CPU bangs on it. Anecdotal reports say it throttles more and sooner than the SP2 did. That's kind of a problem for me. I don't care how thin it is, if it's throttling and giving a poor user experience.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:23 pm

Scott, the SP3 is begging for a comprehensive TR review...
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:27 pm

FireGryphon wrote:Scott, the SP3 is begging for a comprehensive TR review...


What do we want to compare it to? I have a pile of laptops to bench against, though mainly of the heavy-n-fast schools, and I hear MS's return policies are liberal and permissive.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:09 am

I don't think a product needs a direct comparison in order to be reviewed. Instead, I want an in-depth look at whether the SP3 does what it's designed to do and what, if any, problems it has. In the 40 minutes I used an SP3 I discovered things that not a single review mentioned, and you and others mentioned things that fit in this same category. I'm not surprised that PC World's and CNet's reviews of the SP3 were little more than a glance at a press release, but those kinds of reviews are not helpful in guiding my spending decision. A TR-esque in-depth review would.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:49 am

Well, I'm still hoping to talk to the local ms store and arrange a proper in depth sit down with one, and hopefully some of the accessories too, so maybe I'll be able to provide some of that. I'll be able to replicate your issues or mark them one offs, at least.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:12 am

I have owned a Surface Pro 3 for a little over a week, and I don't have the screen problems that you have mentioned. I suspect that it was a "demo" problem.

The system isn't perfect, nothing is. However, it does a remarkable job in combining both the tablet and occasional keyboard use.

For more serious typing work, use any bluetooth keyboard and mouse. Microsoft makes some good ones, and so does Logitech. One advantage of the Surface Pro line is that the ability to detach the keyboard means that you can put the keyboard of your choice up to the tablet's base, unlike trying to work with a different keyboard when using a laptop, as I have done for years. The stand also makes this easier.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:14 am

One further note: the throttling IS an issue, compared to gaming laptops in particular.
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:19 am

Cuhulin, thanks for the info! For the touch input problem, please try to recreate it by doing this: on the plain desktop, press the screen with your finger as though you want to band select some desktop icons and create a selection square. Keep your finger pressed on the screen. After some number of seconds the box (in my experience) disappears. I found that this can happen as a missed touch when you first touch the screen, or as a false finger-lift after a random period of time while your finger is pressed. Please try that exact method to see if you can recreate it.

What are the effects of the throttling? Could you, say, run some game in benchmark mode so that it loops and shows you FPS? That way you could see how much performance drops when the chip throttles.

Is the home button easy to accidentally press? Are there any problems with the pen? Have you had to replace the battery yet? How is the kickstand?

Sorry for all of the questions, but I want to know. :) Thanks!
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Re: Tried Surface 3, and I'm surprised

Postposted on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:46 am

I have no evidence for or against, but the band select issue does sound like some abused digitizers I've worked with in the past. Might just be some folks were rough with that demo unit.
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