Networking equipment...

[IntelMole]

Okay, so I'm thinking about networking my two computers together. I have an old pansy-ass k6-2 400 running at the moment, and when I have the money I will get an Athlon based system more than likely (this is cos they perform great and are dirt-cheap, like me, compared to P4s)... I will probably get something like the Dragon board reviewed a few days ago for my new system, that looks kickass and has onboard 10/100

Only one problem... my old computer has no spare bays to put the NIC into apart from the one it uses to hook USB onto. I have a USB scanner and USB mouse (which comes with a PS/2 adaptor so the mouse is okay, could always get a pansy mouse for the mother and use the intellimouse for my computer instead)...

If I was to take the header out-
This of course means I have to stick the scanner on my other computer, which might or might not work because of space restrictions in my room... Suggestions?

Also, this will be the first time I've EVER networked anything together, so what sort of networking shall I use? I've thought about the possible options once or twice:

Bus network: will have to fork out for terminators, extra risk of failure
Star network: Will need a server, don't have one
Ring network: Fast, and seems like the best option...

Some more bits and bobs, which thoughts in brackets:

What cabling should I use? (Cat 5)

Hub/Switch? (Hub cos it's cheaper)

What will I need to link up the printer and scanner? Can I link them separately from the computers? (<b>okay!</b> I admit defeat!)

Overall, I'm just like every system admin : I want a system that's fast, simple, and reliable! Oh yeah, and cheap.

Sos about the length of the post though btw,
IntelMole

P.S. edited the bit about my old PC's PCI slots

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IntelMole on 2002-01-08 17:40 ]</font>

[RandomNull]

get a usb hub, plug it into the usb card to get more usb ports then get a rj45-usb connector instead of usin a NIC card use it instead. plug ur network cable into this device and it plugs into ur usb slot w/o need for a NIC.

[Sneedes]

Stay away from USB nics. They are all terrible. They'll make any troubleshooting on your new network more than difficult.

If you are only going to have the two machines, the only hardware requirements are 2 10/100 NIC cards (I like the cheapo D-Link and Netgears) and a crossover cable.

Make a slot available in each pc for the nics and plug the crossover cable between the two nics. voila. You should manually assign each card an address (such as 192.168.2.100 and 192.168.2.101).

Sneedes

[Sneedes]

Like randomnull said, get a USB hub. I assume your motherboard has 2 USB ports and you are using the additional header for the additional 2 USB ports.

I'd plug the USB mouse into the first port on the motherboard. Then, I'd plug the USB hub to the second motherboard USB port. Then, any remaining USB devices can be plugged into the USB hub. There is a theoretical limit of like 127 USB devices (anyone correct me if I'm wrong).
Now by using only the 2 motherboard USB ports, you've freed up a 'slot'.

Sneedes

[Despite]

do stay away from USB "NIC"s. you might find one that'll work pretty good on a certain OS most of the time, but why limit yourself? Sneedes is right, troubleshooting a network based on those would suck ass. It would be better to stick with a well-known technology, i.e. ethernet. And when decent PCI 10/100 rj45 ethernet cards with multiple OS support are ~$15, why the heck not? Sneedes is also right about the crossover cable. That'll do fine until such time as you want to expand your network, and you can get a switch at that time. As for networking your printer and scanner- they are almost certainly not "network ready". That is to say, you can get printers (and scanners) that have their own network interface and method of accessing them, but they are WAY expensive compared to normal home office type printers. But that's okay; you can host the printing services on one of your PCs, and share it for all the others (well, the other one in this case).

[IntelMole]

hey guys and gals, thanx for all the help, but I need to just say a few bits about my present system and the future one:

It has no more PCI slots... If I could get rid of the USB plate (sorry, I said header, I was tired ), I'd be alright...
I probably won't go the USB way as some of ya are saying about the troubles with managing it...

I was thinking that I could get a cra...erm, standard PS/2 mouse for the old computer and stick the nice optical one on me new pc. Then I could stick the scanner on a switch/hub and so could put the NIC in me old PC. The printer could also go on the hub as well. Finally I would whack the new PC (hopefully with onboard Ethernet) into the hub. Then I would say ten hail marys and pray it all works

Would this work, and on what topologies?

Oh yeah, and after doing a bit of reading my A-Level Computing textbook, I've decided my best choice might be 10BaseT cable, or if that's too expensive, thin ethernet.

btw, I would just host the printer/scanner stuff, but I won't have both PCs on all of the time, so I would rather have them decentralised...

Hope it's clear, if not, could someone tell me how to put a picture on these boards and I'll put a diagram together on PSP7...

Thanx agen ppl,
IntelMole

P.S. I'm not really worried if I can't network the scanner, I'm the only one that uses it anyway. The printer though, is an Epson Stylus Color 640 and is connected through the paralell port...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IntelMole on 2002-01-09 11:01 ]</font>

[zgirl]

Ok, your a little hung up on topologies here.

First a little about them. Topologies are a logical layout of a network design. Your choice of data medium (cat5, coax) will play a major role in the topologies you end up using.

If you are going to use CAT5 then will be using a star topology. Picture the hub in the middle and line running outward from it, like a star.

coax is either bus (most common) or star/bus. Some companies made coax hubs that you could run multiple bus lines from.

Ring is mostly involved within FDDI or token ring.

Lastly servers are not required for any topology, like stated above a topology is a logical design on how your network is arranged. It has nothing to do with what equipment is connected to it so long at the equipment in question plays by the rules for connecting said device. i.e. PCs, servers, printers or anything else.

[Despite]

you have no more PCI slots? ugh. how about ISA? you could use an ISA ethernet card, if you have a slot.
now, one of us is confused about your printer and scanner. Since you say you're okay with the scanner being used on just one machine, let's concentrate on the printer. How many interfaces does the printer have? Does it have an ethernet interface, either RJ45 or BNC? If it does, then you've got a heavy duty printer and should count yourself lucky. Though you still might need a separate PC dedicated to actually serving up its print queue. At any rate I find it much more likely that you've got just a standard printer. In which case you can "network" it between two PCs by either using a parallel port print sharing box (which is simple conceptually but very limiting down the road) or by connecting one of the PCs to its parallel interface and the other one to its serial interface (assuming it has both).
Ultimately, if you've got two PCs you're going to want them networked. You might as well figure out which of your current PCI cards you can live without so as to free up a slot for an ethernet card. Also, forgive my directness, but forget what you're reading in whatever computing textbook you've got. It sounds a bit outdated. In the personal computer world, there is (almost) no more talk of star vs. ring. vs. bus networks. Ethernet has won out. To be more specific, 10baseT over standard 8 conductor unshielded twisted pair is what you want to use. It's just as cheap (probably actually cheaper) as any other network arrangement you could get into, and it is FAR better supported, and will continue to be in the future. Good old cat5 with the proper crimp job to make it a crossover cable will work just fine for a two PC setup, and you won't have invested anything in vain when you want to expand. Just buy a hub or switch and start adding more hosts! Uhhh, I guess technically I lied right there; you would have wasted one RJ45 connector on the crossover cable, which you would have to cut off and recrimp to be a standard patch cable once you got a switch, but you get the idea.

[ANApex]

I'm surprised more people didn't point this out as a solution for the printer. Since you plan to get or are going to start off with a hub/switch why not get a print server for the printer? HP makes some great ones that you can connect a parallel port printer too and linksys also includes a print server in some of their routers/switches. This'll also save you the trouble of having to have it mapped through one computer and having that computer on when you want to use the printer. I also agree with everyone else 10BaseT or 100BaseT is really the only way to go now for a decent price, you almost gave me a friggin' heart attack when I read that you wanted to use thinnet.

[Despite]

I thought about mentioning those, but the problem with those HP JetDirect doohickeys is that they are EXPENSIVE.

[zgirl]

On 2002-01-09 12:12, Despite wrote:
To be more specific, 10baseT over standard 8 conductor unshielded twisted pair is what you want to use.

I think you need to check the minimum requirements for a 10baseT network. Which would be 2 pair, 4 conductor unshielded CAT3 cabling. CAT5 would be standard 8 (4 pair) conductor unshielded twisted pair. However you can use higher rated, shielded cabling to improve your network performance and to reduce errors.

10baseT requirements can be meet by CAT3, CAT5, CAT5e, CAT6 twisted pair.
100baseT can use all of the above except CAT3.

[Despite]

you're right, I was playing kind of fast and loose with my terminology. I used "10baseT" to get across 10/100-over-cat5-with-cute-little-RJ45-ends, so as to differentiate from 10base2 and thinnet coax with BNC connectors.

[lenzenm]

Hmm...
Seems to me IntelMole's primary concern is cost. That rules out the print server. It also rules out 10Base2 Thinwire/thinnet, way too expensive nowadays, plus a pain with which to work.

OK, let's presume you have an operational budget of $100 US (prolly 'bout 65 British pounds sterling). Go to an electrical/telephone/cabling supply house. Buy a 500' or 1000' roll of cat5 cabling, figger $50 or so (32 pounds). Pick up a 50 pack of RJ-45 connectors, $20 (13 pounds). Order an RJ-45 crimping tool online, $25 (17 pounds); dont get it at the supply house, they'll want like 3X's that much. Buy a pair of cheapo PCI 10/100TX NICs at local computer shop...D-Link, Linksys, SMC, Netgear...figger $10 a pop or $20 total (6 pounds each, 13pounds total). Install the NIC's, make the crossover cable, hook up the crossover cable, assign static IP's to the NICs. Make the printer a shared resource, you will have to install file & printer sharing to do so, and install the drivers for it on the second (non-hosting machine).

Damn. That's still $115 (75 pounds). Ok, cheaper still (but not per unit) would be buy the CAT5 crossover cable & the NICs at a local computer shop. That would be about $25 (17 pounds) for a 20' crossover cable, and still $20 for a pair of NICs (13 pounds). Install the NIC's, hook up the crossover cable, assign static IP's to the NICs. Make the printer a shared resource, you will have to install file & printer sharing to do so, and install the drivers for it on the second (non-hosting machine). That comes out to about $45 (30 pounds).

Re-post if you need more specific instructions, I'll be glad to help.

[IntelMole]

Hey, what is with you guys, wheneva I come home about a zillion of you answer my posts at once and I'm left behind! Oh, and you still haven't told me how to stick pictures on the forums, would be much easier to show my plan of the system...

To answer your question whoever it was (can't find you on the forum so you are now demoted to gerbil status), yes I suspected my IT txtbook was probably a little outdated... It's got stuff about Fortran and Pascal innit for gawdsakes! This is an A-Level course, not degree

However, this book was made in 1996, so it's not THAT ancient, although it's behind the curve... if you want to look it up, here's the ISBN. Happy reading:

0-907679-87-0

Despite, I have about 2 free PCI slots and all 3 ISA, just no free backplates... and I've got the bare minimum near enough anyway... backplate for the printer port, one for USB, sound card, modem card and 1 for sumin else, can't rememba wot tho... probably important lol

ANApex, that sounds like a good solution, and it's not THAT far off what I was thinking of... score 1 for the newb But I never said I WANTED to use thinnet, it was just one of my options...

Oh, and lenzemann, primary concern is that it works Secondary concern is that it works to acceptable standards. Third concern is that it doesn't fall down around my ears when I turn it on, and fourth concern is that it's fast.

Then, and only THEN, will I consider cost hehe

Operational budget is therefore about £100 max, I figure I'm spending about a grand on this system, another hundred won't hurt

So, the plan is, get a hub/switch with print server, whack the printer on there, then connect up the two computers with 10 or 100baseT, depending on my mood...

Oh, and the obsession for topologies was mainly because a bus one needs terminators to work properly, which are an expensive. And I was under the illusion that a star network needed a server for some reason...

That's ESSENTIALLY what I'm building isn't it? Put the hub at the centre, then connect all the stuff to the hub...

Hey I've just had a thought... If I can get the printer off my old pc, it means I don't need the plate for it. That frees up a slot!!!!!!

In the words of Ali G, "Bling Bling",
IntelMole

[IntelMole]

Have been taking a final look at computer equipment before going to bed, and have found some networking stuff at overclockers...

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/ ... ng_46.html

Now, if youy follow the link, am I right in saying I need to buy two of those network cards (1 if I get a Dragon mobo or 1 with onboard networking), plus a switch? I'd probably be looking at the 5-port hub...

P.S. can't be bothered to do final comment, it's gone midnight here

[ANApex]

Now, if youy follow the link, am I right in saying I need to buy two of those network cards (1 if I get a Dragon mobo or 1 with onboard networking), plus a switch? I'd probably be looking at the 5-port hub...

Ok if you're getting a DRAGON you only need to get one PCI NIC. The DRAGON comes with a built-in NIC (hence the N ). Anyway I'd skip the hub, 4-5 port switches should be well within your budget. I'd also suggest that if you plan on going broadband later look into buying a 4-5 port router/switch. Would save you time and money if/when you go broadband.

[IntelMole]

Good point ANApex, if BT ever gets their thumb outta their ass I'll look into it a bit more, but I can't see my area getting broadband until about early q4 2002... Yes, BT is THAT slow to roll it out. Even then I'll probably end up on BT, which'll be on a majorly underpowered network and I'll still get 2400bps connection rates sometimes

And I doubt I'll be getting a router lol, I'm not full of THAT much money

Cheers anyway ppl,
IntelMole

[lenzenm]

IntelMole:
On the router thing, a 5-port hub will be about $40-50US (25-33 pounds). A 5-port switch will be about $50-60 (33-40 pounds). A 5-port router/switch will be about $80-100 (53-65 pounds). The other advantage the consumer-grade routers have (besides increased security on a network) is that they typically do DHCP, so you wont have to use statically configured IP addresses.
So, the router would cost you roughly twice what the hub would cost, and 1.5X's what the switch would cost, and offers some advantages. Only you can decide whether the advantages are worth the extra expense.

[IntelMole]

Sounds like I'm getting a switch

All the functionality of a router (pretty much), but about 3/4 the cost

Any hints on the pictures yet???

[lenzenm]

IntelMole, a switch is not almost as good as a router, at least not exactly.
Hub = common link for multiple lines, shared bandwidth (i.e. if you have 3 machines hooked up to a 100TX hub, they get 33.3 Mb/s each). This connection type allows unrestricted, unsecured traffic flow.
Switch = common link for multiple lines, dedicated bandwidth (i.e. if you have 3 machines hooked up to a 100TX swtich, they get 100Mb/s each.) This connection type allows unrestricted, unsecured traffic flow.
A home gateway/dsl-cable modem router that has more than one clent computer port on it integrates either a hub or switch into its design, depending upon manufacturer and model. In addition, it allows a more secured connection, as it "hides" your client computers from the net at large, and can block TCP/UDP ports from accepting inbound connections. Also, some models have a built-in DHCP server for easier administration of your home network.

No idea on the pictures, sorry.

[zgirl]

WHOA!!! A 100mb hub and a 100mb switch do not work like that.

The difference between the two is this.

A hub broadcasts all packets of data to all devices on a network. This means if you send a file to one PC on a network, every PC will receive that data. The NIC in each device reads the incoming ethernet frames and looks at the destination MAC address (hard coded address on NIC). If the packet is destined for that device the NIC will accept it. If not the data is discarded. This is fine in small networks, but in large networks the data more data that is move the more packets are flooding NICs that don't need it, then reducing the bandwidth and slowing things down.

A switch is an intelligent device which will over time learn what the MAC address is for each active port that it has. (Better switches will query the ports to learn the MAC address as soon as something is plugged in, but we are talking $$$$$ here.) So when a packet of data is sent the switch will read the framing information, like I mention about the NIC cards do. Then a switch will send the data to the port that has the correct MAC address AND ONLY TO THAT PORT. Thus a switch will reduce the about of residual traffic to each node. Only broadcast traffic is forwarded to each node. i.e. locating a DHCP server on a network.

Both devices will send data at a 100mb to the nodes on a network. The bandwidth is not divided up among nodes. However as you can see by my example. If NIC has to read and discard too much data it will slow down the performance of the network. Where if it is only receiving data for itself, other NICs are free to move more data around. Rather then read too many packets not destined for it.

Whew! Sorry that was so long.

[lenzenm]

Z-Man:
I know, I know. I was trying to not get too involved here. My bad. The description I gave is roughly accurate, however, as it DOES reduce overall network traffic by directing the traffic to specific location, thereby increasing effective bandwidth, since there aren't broadcasts mucking everything up.

/me submits himself to public tounge-lashing & ridicule, then heads home to beat own head against wall.

[zgirl]

Yes, but bandwidth is still limited by the backplane of the hub/switch. Most cheaper switches will only have a 100Mb backplane. Thus they only would be able to send a maxium of 100Mb at a time. not 300Mb if I were to use your example. Only more expensive switches will be able to handle more data at once. I've work on switches that can handle terabytes of info in a single instant. Hubs are usually rated at their respective speed, 10 or 100.

[lenzenm]

Z-Man:
Ok, point taken. I've not thought bout the backplane issue much. I usually use commercial-grade equipment (which probally has a more robust backbone), so when I do a network troughput bench w/multiple workstations, I can see each machine getting its 100Mb/s. 'Course, I doubt IntelMole wants to pay $300 US for a 4-port switch (or more likely $400 for a 8-port like I have @ home, or $750 for a 24-port like at the office...dont know if anyone would bother manufacturing a 4-port switch with a 400Mb/s backbone.)

/me feels totally dumb-@ssed now.

[zgirl]

BTW - I'm not trying to reply negatively at all, It's just more info always helps. IMHO at todays prices you can buy a 5 port linksys 10/100 switch for around $40us. Buy it no point in buying a hub these days. If you get a hub for free then that would be another story.

[highlandr]

The main advantage that you guys are trying to describe is what happens when you get more than 2 or 3 machines on the device. With a hub, if two pairs of computers are talking to each other (1 transferring to 2, 3 to 4) then they ALL share the 100Mbps, effectively giving each pair 50 Mbps (though it isn't specifically split up like that). In a switch though, the 1-2 transfer does not flood the 3-4 transfer, and so each PAIR (in this example) gets the 100Mbps.

Of course, that is all theoretical, and may not work quite so smoothly on a cheapo router from Walmart, but it should be something along those lines.

[resteves2]

Intelmole, Just want to clarify. Exactly how many computers are you trying to network, and how close together are they?

In general, what has been said is spot on, use cat5 cable, and get a switch or router. (For your set-up, a hub will work 'as well' as a switch; but it is only a few bucks to be sure.) The advantage of getting the cable/DSL router, is that many have a printer port built in. I haven't seen any switches that include a printserver; so I don't know how much they are. If you are looking for a way to have the printer networked, I think the best bet is to go with the router. [I have a brand new one in the box ($80 US) but I don't know if it would be worth it with the shipping.]

If you are only networking 2 comps, then the options are different that using 3+ comps.


.

[IntelMole]

Okay people, I think I've worked out how people are managing to put pics on the board...

Call me slow, but aren't they using the html a href command? Link it to a pic on some webspace somewhere, and hey presto, instant picture...

Will get a pic of the current network design ASAP...

Hey, I'm actually getting excited now about the whole thing,
IntelMole

[IntelMole]

Okay, this is my attempt, I've finally got around to doing this... Took me all of five minutes ...

<img src="http://www.dreamwater.net/tech/computergeek/network.gif">
Would this work? If not, how could I get it to work?

Nearly 30 posts on this topic, I'm feeling popular ,
IntelMole



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IntelMole on 2002-01-30 11:47 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IntelMole on 2002-01-30 11:50 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IntelMole on 2002-01-30 11:51 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IntelMole on 2002-01-30 11:52 ]</font>