VDSL?

The network is the forum.

Moderators: Steel, notfred

VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 10:47 am

Anyone know much about this new technology, would it be better than say cable, we are with Rogers up here and have had it with them, love their internet service but everything else about them is horrible and not very consumer friendly.

This is what I was thinking of getting, the 50mb package but I noticed the VDSL and the cable version of the same package.


http://www.acanac.ca/ontario.html
credible
Gerbil First Class
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 10:59 am

Its a fairly old tech, now. It is probably vdsl2. Works extremely well. I worked with it at Qwest (now CenturyLink) and it is an awesome tech. The problem with it.is limited reach. However, if its an option, it is good. If you live in an appartment, it is a much better option than cable (usually).
Sony a7
Sony Zeiss 55/1.8 SSM, 24-70/4 SSM
Minolta 17-35/2.8-4 D, 100-300 APO
TheEmrys
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 8:22 pm
Location: Northern Colorado

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 10:59 am

well it is still DSL, just very-high bit-rate DSL. i have never used VDSL, but i think cable would be the better option. DSL should have died a long time ago. as far as i can tell VDSL still uses telephone lines and you would still need a VDSL modem. so it seems like regular DSL but on steroids. You would still have all of the problems associated with DSL...latency, drop-outs, crappy phone wiring, etc...
ryko
Gerbil Team Leader
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: new york

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 11:29 am

ryko wrote:well it is still DSL, just very-high bit-rate DSL. i have never used VDSL, but i think cable would be the better option. DSL should have died a long time ago. as far as i can tell VDSL still uses telephone lines and you would still need a VDSL modem. so it seems like regular DSL but on steroids. You would still have all of the problems associated with DSL...latency, drop-outs, crappy phone wiring, etc...


And you base this on... what? I just ditched my cable and the person kept telling me I was "downgrading" by dropping their service. Must have been trained to say that every other word to retain me.

DSL doesn't have shared local loop access unlike cable, I believe, so one person can't jack up several. Correct me if I'm wrong on the topology now, it's been a while since I delved into that. You can have crappy cable wiring, especially in apartment complexes, with splitters killing the cable signal. Why would cable have better latency than DSL? Sure, it's possible, but based on the physical tech, do you have anything to back that up? I've had packet loss and latency issues with my cable and sometimes it's been great. You talk about the "problems" associated with DSL but don't mention any with cable. Kinda one-sided.

I moved from 50/10 Mbps cable to 40/5 ADSL. Honestly, haven't seen any difference with gaming or with streaming video.
Scrotos
Graphmaster Gerbil
 
Posts: 1028
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:57 pm
Location: Denver, CO.

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 11:38 am

Scrotos wrote:
ryko wrote:well it is still DSL, just very-high bit-rate DSL. i have never used VDSL, but i think cable would be the better option. DSL should have died a long time ago. as far as i can tell VDSL still uses telephone lines and you would still need a VDSL modem. so it seems like regular DSL but on steroids. You would still have all of the problems associated with DSL...latency, drop-outs, crappy phone wiring, etc...

And you base this on... what? I just ditched my cable and the person kept telling me I was "downgrading" by dropping their service. Must have been trained to say that every other word to retain me.

Aside from a several-week stretch a couple of years ago where there was an intermittent problem with the local DSLAM (and intermittent problems can happen with *any* broadband technology...), my DSL has been very reliable.

As TheEmrys already noted, VDSL isn't really all that new. It is the technology used by AT&T's U-Verse, which has been around for 7 years (give or take).
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37479
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 11:43 am

Hell, some of the local telcos provide T1/DS1 lines and "metro ethernet" using bonded HDSL and SDSL lines. If it's good enough for big business, it's good enough for home use, ya?
Scrotos
Graphmaster Gerbil
 
Posts: 1028
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:57 pm
Location: Denver, CO.

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 11:51 am

I can't see it being the different across the pond, but VDSL here is high speed DSL - carried over fibre optic telephone lines for the most part rather than copper. It's better than the cable options here as it's less contended and is always getting speed upgrades from BT every year that goes by. It's also much more widely available!

It's pushing 100MB speeds for the most part (less overheads). Ahem, VDSL (called FTTC here):

Image
Intel C2E QX9770 @ 4.2Ghz, 1.4v | Gigabyte GA-X38T-DQ6 | 8GB Corsair DDR3 1600 | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial 512GB M550 SSD
geekl33tgamer
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:25 pm
Location: England

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 12:44 pm

If you live in a newer condo/apartment building, VDSL can be pretty good. For example, if lucky, in Toronto, Bell will run fiber right into the basement/phone closet of the building and then run network cable from the "SLAM" (or whatever the fiber to ethernet converter is called) to the unit, where they install a single modem type box that your home phone and router/home network plugs into and also serves as your TV receiver. This means no twisted pair copper and no analog at all. I had VDSL briefly around 2008-2009 with such a set up and didn't have any problems.
cynan
Gerbil Elite
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:30 pm

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 1:07 pm

geekl33tgamer wrote:It's pushing 100MB speeds for the most part (less overheads). Ahem, VDSL (called FTTC here):


Fiber To The Curb? I am aware of FTTH (Fiber To The Home) and FTTN (Fiber To The Node) and FTTP (Fiber To The Premises) but hadn't heard the FTTC one. Is that to the house or is that to a node/co/box outside the house, some distance away?
Scrotos
Graphmaster Gerbil
 
Posts: 1028
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:57 pm
Location: Denver, CO.

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 1:30 pm

Scrotos wrote:Fiber To The Curb? I am aware of FTTH (Fiber To The Home) and FTTN (Fiber To The Node) and FTTP (Fiber To The Premises) but hadn't heard the FTTC one. Is that to the house or is that to a node/co/box outside the house, some distance away?


Close enough, it's Fibre To The Cabinet. Hanging off each telephone exchange (that is some distance away, miles actually) are loads of little Fibre Cabinet points. It's purpose is to take all the speed goodness from the fibre pipe and force it down the copper lines for the last little bit of the journey). Each one will serve a handful of streets only, so each houses existing line isn't too far from one of these, perhaps 500-600 meter line length at most. All clients connected to the cabinet are targeted to attain a base speed of 80MB sync (so about 67MB+ actual throughput). I get about 73-74MB Throughput off a sync of 94MB. It also seems to have very low latency, every time. I was pinging a Titanfall server earlier today at just 9Ms - It's always like this. :-)

It's better than cable as I said earlier, even taking into account the cable is fibre right up to the door - whereas this isn't. I can only guess as Cable doesn't benefit from these little Cabinet points that carry the fast speed miles out from the main exchange, the whole speed vs. distance thing plays it's part. This is my fastest route to get broadband at my home, and the cheapest (the cable provider is a joke in pricing terms too).

Edit: Seems very similar to FTTN?
Intel C2E QX9770 @ 4.2Ghz, 1.4v | Gigabyte GA-X38T-DQ6 | 8GB Corsair DDR3 1600 | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial 512GB M550 SSD
geekl33tgamer
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:25 pm
Location: England

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 1:40 pm

geekl33tgamer wrote:It's better than cable as I said earlier, even taking into account the cable is fibre right up to the door - whereas this isn't. I can only guess as Cable doesn't benefit from these little Cabinet points that carry the fast speed miles out from the main exchange, the whole speed vs. distance thing plays it's part. This is my fastest route to get broadband at my home, and the cheapest (the cable provider is a joke in pricing terms too).

Edit: Seems very similar to FTTN?


Yeah, that's FTTN except hanging off a pole. :D

To clarify, cable in the US is coaxial cable, not fiber optic cable. The closest that "cable" will get is FTTN and then coax to the home. We'd call it "cable" for coaxial cable and "fiber" for fiber optic cable. Your usage of "cable" is unclear to me which is why I'm clarifying.
Scrotos
Graphmaster Gerbil
 
Posts: 1028
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:57 pm
Location: Denver, CO.

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 1:52 pm

Scrotos wrote:
geekl33tgamer wrote:It's better than cable as I said earlier, even taking into account the cable is fibre right up to the door - whereas this isn't. I can only guess as Cable doesn't benefit from these little Cabinet points that carry the fast speed miles out from the main exchange, the whole speed vs. distance thing plays it's part. This is my fastest route to get broadband at my home, and the cheapest (the cable provider is a joke in pricing terms too).

Edit: Seems very similar to FTTN?


Yeah, that's FTTN except hanging off a pole. :D

To clarify, cable in the US is coaxial cable, not fiber optic cable. The closest that "cable" will get is FTTN and then coax to the home. We'd call it "cable" for coaxial cable and "fiber" for fiber optic cable. Your usage of "cable" is unclear to me which is why I'm clarifying.

That's fair enough, and apologies if it was confusing. The actual cable you talk about died a long time ago here, and it became fibre. It's still marketed as cable either way, and I guess to the un-educated they do see a physical cable, so you know how it's kind of stuck... :wink:

On a side note, I find it interesting that in the US cable is a big thing still, but it's really struggling here. Most homes have it, most don't use it. Almost all of the homes with Internet access take it from a phone line. If you want decent HD TV, you get Sky. Yet they still roll out an expensive infrastructure most don't choose to use as a 1st option.
Intel C2E QX9770 @ 4.2Ghz, 1.4v | Gigabyte GA-X38T-DQ6 | 8GB Corsair DDR3 1600 | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial 512GB M550 SSD
geekl33tgamer
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:25 pm
Location: England

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 2:03 pm

Thank you all for the replies, I learned some more:), the ISP that had this version of DSL has quite a bad reputation for service, among other things, it was Ancana up here in Ontario.

So after a bit of research we have settled on Start Communications and these 2 services interest me, I am thinking it will be the cable one for sure since I can have the latest Docsis 3 tech and the eight (8) bonded downstream channels and four (4) bonded upstream channels.


In any even I'll ask your opinions any way of the two just to be sure.


Cable option-Pro Cable Internet 45 Mbps 4 Mbps 300 GB $59.95 $69.95 $50 *-The $69 is for unlimited which we will be getting as we got rid of cable as well as the home phone, the $50 is for install but if I am an active broadband user I can transfer for free if its not less that 10 days to cancelling.

The DSL option is different than my original post-Advanced FTTN Internet 25 Mbps 10 Mbps 300 GB $49.95 $59.95 $50-Would also go with the unlimited here as well and the $50 install we likely have to be paid.


So I think my option is pretty straightforward now but still curious what you all think as well, perhaps there is something I don't know about this DSL as well.
credible
Gerbil First Class
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 3:25 pm

credible wrote:Thank you all for the replies, I learned some more:), the ISP that had this version of DSL has quite a bad reputation for service, among other things, it was Ancana up here in Ontario.

So after a bit of research we have settled on Start Communications and these 2 services interest me, I am thinking it will be the cable one for sure since I can have the latest Docsis 3 tech and the eight (8) bonded downstream channels and four (4) bonded upstream channels.


In any even I'll ask your opinions any way of the two just to be sure.


Cable option-Pro Cable Internet 45 Mbps 4 Mbps 300 GB $59.95 $69.95 $50 *-The $69 is for unlimited which we will be getting as we got rid of cable as well as the home phone, the $50 is for install but if I am an active broadband user I can transfer for free if its not less that 10 days to cancelling.

The DSL option is different than my original post-Advanced FTTN Internet 25 Mbps 10 Mbps 300 GB $49.95 $59.95 $50-Would also go with the unlimited here as well and the $50 install we likely have to be paid.


So I think my option is pretty straightforward now but still curious what you all think as well, perhaps there is something I don't know about this DSL as well.


check out www.vmedia.ca

i was gonna go with them, they also offer TV but decided to stick with Rogers still.
AMD Phenom2 x2 555 | ASUS M4N75TD | 2x4GB Patriot DDR3-1600 | EVGA GTX 750Ti 2GB | Acer X223w | Seagate 1.5TB | 600W PSU |
SoM
Gerbil First Class
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:56 am
Location: Toronto

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Mon May 19, 2014 4:08 pm

I have heard nothing but goodness for Acanac. Are the bad reps recent? Some links to forum/review threads would be nice.

Cable's (not "fibre cable") biggest problem is the sharing. I have been with Robbers since their "@Home" days. Due to me being in a heavy residential areas with kids (a bunch of elementary schools, 2 junior highs and a high school, and that's just the public schools) pretty much guarantee traffic to slow to a crawl between 7pm-2am. With the proliferation of Netflix I can only imagine how bad it is now during evenings. :o

You should seek better understanding of your own use case and surroundings. Are you a big downloader (especially using torrents)? Then you should get something with decent uploads. The 45/4 of cable may not cut it, especially when everything is congested turning it effectively into something like 7/.8. If Acanac's advertised 50/10 is sustainable, then I would consider that a better package. In terms of surroundings, is your area/apartment full of young families, or you are surrounded by non-techie seniors (meaning you will be the only bandwidth hogger around)? How far are you away from the CO (if you are doing DSL)? These are questions that you need to research before calling up Robbers and giving it the finger.

Caps. Another nasty topic. I know Acanac advertises no caps. The other third party sellers should do the same. Find out if they will still throttle traffic. Forum searches are required.

Bundling. Are you using other services from Robbers, like cell phones and cable TV? Their 5-10% discount across the board with "triple play" may mean you need to do more calculations and see if you are going to end up paying more once the bundling discount is lifted, plus whatever grandfather'ed contracts/packages that you may be giving up with your cell phone or TV.
Image
The Model M is not for the faint of heart. You either like them or hate them.

Gerbils unite! Fold for UnitedGerbilNation, team 2630.
Flying Fox
Gerbil God
 
Posts: 24285
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 2:19 am

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Tue May 20, 2014 9:52 am

I'm with TekSavvy on their 25/10 VDSL plan.

In terms of latency, the VDSL is actually lower latency than the Cable here in Ontario. The last mile of cable is run by Rogers who I wouldn't trust to administer a home network. The VDSL infrastructure is Bell so whilst they might be nasty, at least they have a telco background and can set things up right. Bell have been going round adding piggyback remote DSLAMs on to their JWIs i.e. the big 2 panel boxes at the end of the street now gain an extra panel with the DSLAM behind it. The one thing to watch for is that originally they were using Lucent Stinger remotes which are not standards compliant and have various difficulties, the more recent updates are Alcatel 7330s which work well and mean that you can use any VDSL2 modem.

TekSavvy has a big presence on DSLReports http://www.dslreports.com/forum/teksavvy and the TekSavvy Direct forum there is another good way of contacting their tech support. The TSI CEO (TSI Marc) and their head network dude (TSI Gabe) both contribute to the forums, I've seen posts of "lagging to location X, here's a traceroute" and a response of "try now" as they switch it to better routing immediately.
notfred
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
 
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:10 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Tue May 20, 2014 4:31 pm

I have Centurylink VDSL and it's proving to be quite nice. I'm currently trained up at 15x896, but my modem (I use my own SmartRG/ClearAccess modem, not the Zyxel crap Centurylink sells) reports that I have an atainable speed of 40x7 (the DSLAM is ~1000 feet away). If I can get the right tech on the phone I might get them to bump my speed. I do route all my traffic out a VPN that is only 5ms beyond my gateway, so I don't really have much to say about C-link's nework beyond the fact that I haven't seen any congestion getting to my VPN.
yokem55
Gerbil
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2002 7:00 pm

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Tue May 20, 2014 6:42 pm

Not that I am surprised but wow quite a lot of helpful information, I must say more thank yous.

@SoM-They look very interesting at first blush but from some of the quick research I did they are apparently a reseller of a reseller, not sure if thats true but its enough to scare me off, plus the prices seem to good to be true and we know what that usually means.

@Flying Fox-You raised some great points, some of which I may not know until I have my new service as this was kind of sudden because of Rogers business practices and how we were just recently treated, see we decided about 4 months ago that we were going to get rid of the land line and cable tv and just have the internet with a VPN service of some sort to be decided later, what we went through on the phone is just not worth rehashing for me but suffice to say I let them know, in glowing terms no less, that we loved their internet service and would love to keep it, we just asked for the best price they could give us for unlimited and figured we would be staying with them, well it did not work out,lol.

As for Acanac, that was the first one I looked at and then found this thread, that was enough for me as well.

http://www.canadianisp.ca/cgi-bin/isp_comment_totals.cgi?f=Comments&ispid=52

We are going with the Pro Cable Internet 45 Mbps 4 Mbps and unlimited for $69.99, from what I have read recently it seems all the rogers and I guess cogeco resellers will have to upgrade their packages as the 2 main ones are changing all of their packages, for a few different reasons.
What we are hoping is that we will be grandfathered up to the new level of 60 Mbs and 10Mbs by Start Communications, it appears to be the way they do business, another theory we heard from a few users is we would get the d/l speed but not the new upload speed, at this point in time that matters very little to me as 4Mbs up does all we need, we don't torrent or anything, but game a lot and 4 is enough atm.

Once again thank you all, I truly appreciate the advice.

The new DOCSIS standard, if I am read it correctly will hopefully make 45 Mbs go further than it used to before because of the new tech, the modem we are getting will allow for 8 bonded downstream and 4 bonded upstream channels, am I reading this to mean that if I had 8 devices connected to the internet at once I could have them all on their own channel and then even limit the speed in the router to any channel that may gobbling up too much bandwidth, or just set all 8 to use 5Mbs max, is this how these bonded channels work.

In the end Rogers said the best price for the service they are giving us now, which is about 50 down and 4 up would be $94 all in, plus still have to use their modem/router in bridge, Start is going to be as mentioned above at $79 all in and their reputation for customer service is almost impeccable, subject to potential change with more growth I know,lol.Considering we will be with a reseller, I wish to have one with that kind of service support if I run into an issue I can't fix myself or with you fine folks helping.


@notfred-I really did want to go with Teksavvy but was concerned about service dropping off with their increased customer load, it seems Start has the service that Teksavvy once did right now, like I said though, subject to potential change with more customers,lol.


Once again thank you all very much for the help, it was very much appreciated.
credible
Gerbil First Class
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: VDSL?

Postposted on Sat May 24, 2014 10:06 pm

As for cable being a shared media, sure, but it also depends on how your specific cable network is designed. And Docsis 3 can be very fast if it needs to be. Now, I've been staying with the 100/10 subscription since my router only has 100BaseT interfaces on it, but I get 100/10 any time of the day. I had a problem last year when a link upstream got congested, but after I spoke to my ISP and had them look at it, they upped the upstream link to 2x10Gbit instead of the 1x10Gbit it had before.

Although since I'm getting a new checkpoint firewall with gig interfaces and gig firewall throughput soon, I might up that to the 500/50 depending on the price, and we are also in the works of looking at fiber options for this 75 apartment building. But generally, a properly done cable network can supply up to about half a gig downstream and at least 50mbit upstream right now, and the docsis standard allows for gig speed downstreams and up to quarter gig upstream. Not as good as fiber, but a good bit better then your vdsl usually. IIRC vdsl tops out at 100/100.
Aphasia
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
 
Posts: 3401
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Solna/Sweden


Return to Networking

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests