Apple's iPhone is true progress

[tfp]

True but he seemed to want the iphone. I don't pretend to understand...

[tfp]

^ AFAICT that's AT&T's fault, not Apple's.

How do you know? Perhaps the margins for hardware are so low because of what apple is charging for it, causes ATT to nickel and dime the user more to cover the cost and making it affordable? While ATT gets better prices from other hardware vendors. Would you buy the phone if the service plan was %50 cheaper but the phone cost twice as much to get out the door?

Not saying this is true, but making that claim is ignorant in my opinion. You would have to look at the contracts other hardware vendors give ATT and compare them to Apples.

In general Cell companies in the US don't make money on phone hardware they make it on the plan. A number of phones are just given away, that is a straight loss. I'm sure you have seen the upgrade for free deals. That is why they lock people in for a year or 2. This is pretty much universal. If you look in other countries, a number of places in Europe, you'll find the same phones cost more. This is because of the decrease or lack of hardware subsidizing done by the cell carriers. If you did some math you wouldn't even ask if someone would buy the phone if the service was have price but the phone was 2 time current cost. You would make up that difference in what 4 months?

ATT is nickel and diming the user because they can, the iPhone is in demand and people will pay the price. Just like how VZW charges extra for using a phone as a modem even though there are phones which have features that can work around it. VZW specifically asks for those features to be removed. The same goes for IM vs. Texting. This is done on almost every phone sold by a carrier in the US. The carrier uses the phone to get people to use the network its how they make money. They decide how much they want to discount the hardware and how much the service would cost the users. At the end of the day it is up to ATT or the carrier in question.

I don't think someone that doesn't understand cell phone companies should be making any statements about ignorance.

[just brew it!]

I really wish we would move to a business model where the provider is only responsible for providing data connectivity, and everything else runs on top of that. No bundling. The current model is a step backwards towards the "bad old days" where you had to lease your landline phone from AT&T, and third-party direct-connect modems and other devices were strictly forbidden.

What if Dell adopted a policy that their computers would only work with Comcast Internet service? Or Comcast forced you to use HP computers? People wouldn't stand for it, and would vote with their pocketbooks.

[tfp]

First it would help if phones moved to one technology for connectivity or "world phones" would need to become common. (phones that can camp on both CDMA and GSM (2.5/3.0 G) netowrks)

After that it would require regulation to force phone companies to unlock the phones. They have no reason to do that now. It is not uncommon for phones to be exclusive to a carrier for a length of time. They do this to get new customers, the phone manufactures do this for what is probably guaranteed volume and possibly higher prices per phone.

[ludi]

What if Dell adopted a policy that their computers would only work with Comcast Internet service? Or Comcast forced you to use HP computers? People wouldn't stand for it, and would vote with their pocketbooks.

Apple gets away with it because their hardware isn't strictly commoditized, and they make things people want to buy. If HP had a hardware device that was wildly popular, and comparable function and status were perceived as being unavailable anywhere else, they could write contracts like this easily.

[derFunkenstein]

ATT is nickel and diming the user because they can, the iPhone is in demand and people will pay the price.

This, I think, sums it up entirely. If the phone was open to any carrier, AT&T would drop their plan prices, but then Apple would be out an exclusive deal.

The current setup is good for AT&T and good for Apple - they're getting everything they think they can get out of people at a high enough volume (enough units). If it wasn't true, it wouldn't be here.

[tfp]

What if Dell adopted a policy that their computers would only work with Comcast Internet service? Or Comcast forced you to use HP computers? People wouldn't stand for it, and would vote with their pocketbooks.

Apple gets away with it because their hardware isn't strictly commoditized, and they make things people want to buy. If HP had a hardware device that was wildly popular, and comparable function and status were perceived as being unavailable anywhere else, they could write contracts like this easily.

The thing is it's really not just Apple. Every carrier does it with a number of phones from a number of manufactures. Many/Most phones are locked.

[ludi]

What if Dell adopted a policy that their computers would only work with Comcast Internet service? Or Comcast forced you to use HP computers? People wouldn't stand for it, and would vote with their pocketbooks.

Apple gets away with it because their hardware isn't strictly commoditized, and they make things people want to buy. If HP had a hardware device that was wildly popular, and comparable function and status were perceived as being unavailable anywhere else, they could write contracts like this easily.

The thing is it's really not just Apple. Every carrier does it with a number of phones from a number of manufactures. Many/Most phones are locked.

Yeah, but often the same phone is available for use with multiple carriers, with the lockin mainly preserving carrier-specific features and splash screens. In that case you at least have the option of which carrier to sign up with at the beginning.

[tfp]

Yeah some times. The point is Apple isn't the only one that does it.

[lex-ington]

Well . . .I own nothing Apple.

Right now I have an HTC S720 and it does it's job.

I plan on getting the Blackberry Storm once it becomes available at Telus (they say "coming soon").

Right now I have a shared couples plan with my wife that's $60/mth and my unlimited data plan is an additional $30/mth

I have heard Telus pushing the HSPA(?) side of things, as they don't want to go GSM (they are CDMA), at least not fully. They do have the Blackberry 8830 world edition phone, but that's as far as their GSM offerings go.

[Flying Fox]

Switching gears once again (I'm sure the OP is disappointed with no flame wars erupting and instead we actually get some decent discussions on the state of mobile phone industry ).

I have heard Telus pushing the HSPA(?) side of things, as they don't want to go GSM (they are CDMA), at least not fully. They do have the Blackberry 8830 world edition phone, but that's as far as their GSM offerings go.

This is what I am not sure, by going HSPA (yes Up and Down, so just HSPA) they are kind of joining the "GSM" family, with the eventually goal of going LTE (and Verizon is going there too, but they are not doing HSPA and straight to LTE). I wonder if HSPA allows "backward compatibility" so phones that are only GSM/EDGE can still get onto the network? That's the part I am not sure. Bell and Telus are pushing this now because of the 2010 Olympics and they don't want Rogers to be the only cell service provider when all those people with their GSM phones come to Vancouver/Whistler (incidentally I got no reception whatsoever on top of the Whistler Mountain with my Telus phone while my brother's Rogers RAZR was full bars during our trip there last year ). It is inconceivable that all foreign visitors will be carrying HSPA-capable phones. A significant portion should be just GSM/EDGE only, so will they turn on "compatibility mode"?

[Kevin]

Thread moved to the Apple forum (from General Hardware).

Kevin

[Meadows]

Thread moved to the Apple forum (from General Hardware).

Kevin

Aww, but Stone was an engineering marvel as far as General Hard ware goes.

[adisor19]

Switching gears once again (I'm sure the OP is disappointed with no flame wars erupting and instead we actually get some decent discussions on the state of mobile phone industry ).

I have heard Telus pushing the HSPA(?) side of things, as they don't want to go GSM (they are CDMA), at least not fully. They do have the Blackberry 8830 world edition phone, but that's as far as their GSM offerings go.

This is what I am not sure, by going HSPA (yes Up and Down, so just HSPA) they are kind of joining the "GSM" family, with the eventually goal of going LTE (and Verizon is going there too, but they are not doing HSPA and straight to LTE). I wonder if HSPA allows "backward compatibility" so phones that are only GSM/EDGE can still get onto the network? That's the part I am not sure. Bell and Telus are pushing this now because of the 2010 Olympics and they don't want Rogers to be the only cell service provider when all those people with their GSM phones come to Vancouver/Whistler (incidentally I got no reception whatsoever on top of the Whistler Mountain with my Telus phone while my brother's Rogers RAZR was full bars during our trip there last year ). It is inconceivable that all foreign visitors will be carrying HSPA-capable phones. A significant portion should be just GSM/EDGE only, so will they turn on "compatibility mode"?

Ah, yes a very good question. Allow me to explain

HSPA requires a UMTS (3G) network in place in order to function. In other words, anyone with a 3G UMTS phone, can make and place calls. However, i have a feeling that Tellus and Bell will also implement a GSM (2G) network as well if they want to get all those international roaming calls seeing that not everyone will come from overseas with a 3G device WITH the north American 3G bands

Adi

[syadasti]

ATT is nickel and diming the user because they can, the iPhone is in demand and people will pay the price.

This, I think, sums it up entirely. If the phone was open to any carrier, AT&T would drop their plan prices, but then Apple would be out an exclusive deal.

The current setup is good for AT&T and good for Apple - they're getting everything they think they can get out of people at a high enough volume (enough units). If it wasn't true, it wouldn't be here.

Smartphones are about 1/10 of phone sales - a small fraction. Most smartphone sold are Nokia, RIM, or WM. iPhone is nothing compared to them still. iPhone at over $1000+ minimum a year is small niche market of rich suckers.

Worldwide sales in units:


Total cellphone sales:


Declining sales in their biggest market, the US:



iPhone own3d in 2008 period, doesn't matter about Q4. RIM is in less markets than iPhone this year and beats them in the markets they both compete in so Jobs has nothing but hot air as usual. Small niche player in a small market.

[adisor19]

That's what they all said about the iPod in the beginning

Adi

[syadasti]

That's what they all said about the iPod in the beginning

Adi

The iPhone is in its second generation and a $1000+ minimum cell plan regulates it to niche status in a niche market. Smartphones are only 1/10 of cell phone sales. Apple sells about 10M smartphones since its launch over a year ago. Nokia sells about double A QUARTER.

RIM still easily beats Apple in the markets they compete including their biggest - the US. RIM marketshare has also been growing rapidly this year but smartphones will never be mainstream without affordable cell plans.

[adisor19]

That's what they all said about the iPod in the beginning

Adi

The iPhone is in its second generation and a $1000+ minimum cell plan regulates it to niche status in a niche market. Smartphones are only 1/10 of cell phone sales. Apple sells about 10M smartphones since its launch over a year ago. Nokia sells about double A QUARTER.

RIM still easily beats Apple in the markets they compete including their biggest - the US. RIM marketshare has also been growing rapidly this year but smartphones will never be mainstream without affordable cell plans.

Maybe you should check the latest news

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08 ... berry.html


"Apple announced quarterly iPhone sales that surpassed those of BlackBerry maker Research in Motion by nearly a million and a half units or 25%: nearly 6.9 million iPhones versus 5.4 million BlackBerry units in the third calendar quarter of 2008."

So, what were you saying again about RIM ?

Adi

[syadasti]

iPhone own3d in 2008 period, doesn't matter about Q4. RIM is in less markets than iPhone this year and beats them in the markets they both compete in so Jobs has nothing but hot air as usual. Small niche player in a small market.

I was saying you have poor reading skills

[adisor19]

iPhone own3d in 2008 period, doesn't matter about Q4. RIM is in less markets than iPhone this year and beats them in the markets they both compete in so Jobs has nothing but hot air as usual. Small niche player in a small market.

I was saying you have poor reading skills

Ahh gotta lov'em well chosen words

Look at it any way you want it, but in the end the iPhone has sold more units then RIM. Tell me, how long has RIM been around compared to Apple ?

Adi

[DrDillyBar]

HAHA!!
That image about sums it up for me.
Though I understand why people like it, and the multi-touch is a cool thing, there is no way I'd buy a device that advanced and full of potential with a contract that says I have to wear this elastic around my jewels.

[syadasti]

Ahh gotta lov'em well chosen words

Look at it any way you want it, but in the end the iPhone has sold more units then RIM. Tell me, how long has RIM been around compared to Apple ?

Adi

They still haven't beaten RIM for 2008 total sales. There are four quarters in a year.

As I said, smartphones are a minute niche, even symbian which sells nearly double that of apple every quarter vs. total for apple. 1/10 of phone sales. Its not mainstream and never will be like the portable audio market with cell plans that expensive. Most people simply need a cellphone. A lot of people hate electronic leashes.

[derFunkenstein]

are you guys the same person? You're arguing awfully fast...

[Kevin]

with a contract that says I have to wear this elastic around my jewels.

Yes very few people can afford to throw away all that money on a toy.

Here is the old one. The new one cost $10/month more for data and does not include any prepaid TXT anymore you must buy a TXT plan for $5-20/month or pay $.20/txt

http://www.ilounge.com/images/uploads/i ... lplans.jpg

It is easily over $1000/year now...

Over $250 extra over two years compared to the first generation with txt

[syadasti]

are you guys the same person? You're arguing awfully fast...

I'm one of the original TR editors, I invented the Shortbread format

My first PC was a IIc, I was a sucker who bought into the Newton 120 scam, and I have a G4 mini.

[adisor19]

Ahh gotta lov'em well chosen words

Look at it any way you want it, but in the end the iPhone has sold more units then RIM. Tell me, how long has RIM been around compared to Apple ?

Adi

They still haven't beaten RIM for 2008 total sales. There are four quarters in a year.

Indeed, there are four quarters in a year. This is a taste of what's to come next year when i expect Apple to beat RIM for the entire four quarters.

Adi

[syadasti]

Indeed, there are four quarters in a year. This is a taste of what's to come next year when i expect Apple to beat RIM for the entire four quarters.

Adi

Apple users are fickle. It never happened with the first one (see declining US [biggest market] sales below) and it won't happen with the second one. RIM's growth is long term and sustained. They are well proven.

[DrDillyBar]

RIM's growth is long term and sustained. They are well proven.

Nice edit speed there. RIM's stability is likely because they work for the Gove.ment, not just big buisiness.

[syadasti]

RIM's growth is long term and sustained. They are well proven.

Nice edit speed there. RIM's stability is likely because they work for the Gove.ment, not just big buisiness.

They've expanded to the consumer market also - Pearl, Curve etc however the iPhone is the better multimedia device. Most consumers don't realize they can just get a RIM device and add 8GB to it for $25 which takes care of the primary multimedia concern - music.

[DrDillyBar]

RIM's growth is long term and sustained. They are well proven.

Nice edit speed there. RIM's stability is likely because they work for the Gove.ment, not just big buisiness.

They've expanded to the consumer market also - Pearl, Curve etc however the iPhone is the better multimedia device. Most consumers don't realize they can just get a RIM device and add 8GB to it for $25 which takes care of the primary multimedia concern - music.

Indeed. I have 2GB's in my Curve right now. Has my whole car MP3 CD on it (with TR podcasts) and I've still got over a GB free.