Apple's iPhone is true progress

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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:46 am

First it would help if phones moved to one technology for connectivity or "world phones" would need to become common. (phones that can camp on both CDMA and GSM (2.5/3.0 G) netowrks)

After that it would require regulation to force phone companies to unlock the phones. They have no reason to do that now. It is not uncommon for phones to be exclusive to a carrier for a length of time. They do this to get new customers, the phone manufactures do this for what is probably guaranteed volume and possibly higher prices per phone.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:14 pm

just brew it! wrote:What if Dell adopted a policy that their computers would only work with Comcast Internet service? Or Comcast forced you to use HP computers? People wouldn't stand for it, and would vote with their pocketbooks.

Apple gets away with it because their hardware isn't strictly commoditized, and they make things people want to buy. If HP had a hardware device that was wildly popular, and comparable function and status were perceived as being unavailable anywhere else, they could write contracts like this easily.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:20 pm

tfp wrote:ATT is nickel and diming the user because they can, the iPhone is in demand and people will pay the price.

This, I think, sums it up entirely. If the phone was open to any carrier, AT&T would drop their plan prices, but then Apple would be out an exclusive deal.

The current setup is good for AT&T and good for Apple - they're getting everything they think they can get out of people at a high enough volume (enough units). If it wasn't true, it wouldn't be here.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:02 pm

ludi wrote:
just brew it! wrote:What if Dell adopted a policy that their computers would only work with Comcast Internet service? Or Comcast forced you to use HP computers? People wouldn't stand for it, and would vote with their pocketbooks.

Apple gets away with it because their hardware isn't strictly commoditized, and they make things people want to buy. If HP had a hardware device that was wildly popular, and comparable function and status were perceived as being unavailable anywhere else, they could write contracts like this easily.


The thing is it's really not just Apple. Every carrier does it with a number of phones from a number of manufactures. Many/Most phones are locked.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:05 pm

tfp wrote:
ludi wrote:
just brew it! wrote:What if Dell adopted a policy that their computers would only work with Comcast Internet service? Or Comcast forced you to use HP computers? People wouldn't stand for it, and would vote with their pocketbooks.

Apple gets away with it because their hardware isn't strictly commoditized, and they make things people want to buy. If HP had a hardware device that was wildly popular, and comparable function and status were perceived as being unavailable anywhere else, they could write contracts like this easily.


The thing is it's really not just Apple. Every carrier does it with a number of phones from a number of manufactures. Many/Most phones are locked.

Yeah, but often the same phone is available for use with multiple carriers, with the lockin mainly preserving carrier-specific features and splash screens. In that case you at least have the option of which carrier to sign up with at the beginning.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:17 pm

Yeah some times. The point is Apple isn't the only one that does it.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:45 pm

Well . . .I own nothing Apple.

Right now I have an HTC S720 and it does it's job.

I plan on getting the Blackberry Storm once it becomes available at Telus (they say "coming soon").

Right now I have a shared couples plan with my wife that's $60/mth and my unlimited data plan is an additional $30/mth

I have heard Telus pushing the HSPA(?) side of things, as they don't want to go GSM (they are CDMA), at least not fully. They do have the Blackberry 8830 world edition phone, but that's as far as their GSM offerings go.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:04 pm

Switching gears once again (I'm sure the OP is disappointed with no flame wars erupting and instead we actually get some decent discussions on the state of mobile phone industry :P).

lex-ington wrote:I have heard Telus pushing the HSPA(?) side of things, as they don't want to go GSM (they are CDMA), at least not fully. They do have the Blackberry 8830 world edition phone, but that's as far as their GSM offerings go.
This is what I am not sure, by going HSPA (yes Up and Down, so just HSPA) they are kind of joining the "GSM" family, with the eventually goal of going LTE (and Verizon is going there too, but they are not doing HSPA and straight to LTE). I wonder if HSPA allows "backward compatibility" so phones that are only GSM/EDGE can still get onto the network? That's the part I am not sure. Bell and Telus are pushing this now because of the 2010 Olympics and they don't want Rogers to be the only cell service provider when all those people with their GSM phones come to Vancouver/Whistler (incidentally I got no reception whatsoever on top of the Whistler Mountain with my Telus phone while my brother's Rogers RAZR was full bars during our trip there last year :o). It is inconceivable that all foreign visitors will be carrying HSPA-capable phones. A significant portion should be just GSM/EDGE only, so will they turn on "compatibility mode"?
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:52 pm

Thread moved to the Apple forum (from General Hardware).

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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:09 pm

Kevin wrote:Thread moved to the Apple forum (from General Hardware).

Kevin

Aww, but Stone was an engineering marvel as far as General Hard ware goes.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:27 pm

Flying Fox wrote:Switching gears once again (I'm sure the OP is disappointed with no flame wars erupting and instead we actually get some decent discussions on the state of mobile phone industry :P).

lex-ington wrote:I have heard Telus pushing the HSPA(?) side of things, as they don't want to go GSM (they are CDMA), at least not fully. They do have the Blackberry 8830 world edition phone, but that's as far as their GSM offerings go.
This is what I am not sure, by going HSPA (yes Up and Down, so just HSPA) they are kind of joining the "GSM" family, with the eventually goal of going LTE (and Verizon is going there too, but they are not doing HSPA and straight to LTE). I wonder if HSPA allows "backward compatibility" so phones that are only GSM/EDGE can still get onto the network? That's the part I am not sure. Bell and Telus are pushing this now because of the 2010 Olympics and they don't want Rogers to be the only cell service provider when all those people with their GSM phones come to Vancouver/Whistler (incidentally I got no reception whatsoever on top of the Whistler Mountain with my Telus phone while my brother's Rogers RAZR was full bars during our trip there last year :o). It is inconceivable that all foreign visitors will be carrying HSPA-capable phones. A significant portion should be just GSM/EDGE only, so will they turn on "compatibility mode"?


Ah, yes a very good question. Allow me to explain :)

HSPA requires a UMTS (3G) network in place in order to function. In other words, anyone with a 3G UMTS phone, can make and place calls. However, i have a feeling that Tellus and Bell will also implement a GSM (2G) network as well if they want to get all those international roaming calls seeing that not everyone will come from overseas with a 3G device WITH the north American 3G bands ;)

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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:26 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
tfp wrote:ATT is nickel and diming the user because they can, the iPhone is in demand and people will pay the price.

This, I think, sums it up entirely. If the phone was open to any carrier, AT&T would drop their plan prices, but then Apple would be out an exclusive deal.

The current setup is good for AT&T and good for Apple - they're getting everything they think they can get out of people at a high enough volume (enough units). If it wasn't true, it wouldn't be here.


Smartphones are about 1/10 of phone sales - a small fraction. Most smartphone sold are Nokia, RIM, or WM. iPhone is nothing compared to them still. iPhone at over $1000+ minimum a year is small niche market of rich suckers.

Worldwide sales in units:
Image

Total cellphone sales:
Image

Declining sales in their biggest market, the US:

Image

iPhone own3d in 2008 period, doesn't matter about Q4. RIM is in less markets than iPhone this year and beats them in the markets they both compete in so Jobs has nothing but hot air as usual. Small niche player in a small market.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:41 pm

That's what they all said about the iPod in the beginning ;)

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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:11 pm

adisor19 wrote:That's what they all said about the iPod in the beginning ;)

Adi


The iPhone is in its second generation and a $1000+ minimum cell plan regulates it to niche status in a niche market. Smartphones are only 1/10 of cell phone sales. Apple sells about 10M smartphones since its launch over a year ago. Nokia sells about double A QUARTER.

RIM still easily beats Apple in the markets they compete including their biggest - the US. RIM marketshare has also been growing rapidly this year but smartphones will never be mainstream without affordable cell plans.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:01 pm

syadasti wrote:
adisor19 wrote:That's what they all said about the iPod in the beginning ;)

Adi


The iPhone is in its second generation and a $1000+ minimum cell plan regulates it to niche status in a niche market. Smartphones are only 1/10 of cell phone sales. Apple sells about 10M smartphones since its launch over a year ago. Nokia sells about double A QUARTER.

RIM still easily beats Apple in the markets they compete including their biggest - the US. RIM marketshare has also been growing rapidly this year but smartphones will never be mainstream without affordable cell plans.


Maybe you should check the latest news :)

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08 ... berry.html


"Apple announced quarterly iPhone sales that surpassed those of BlackBerry maker Research in Motion by nearly a million and a half units or 25%: nearly 6.9 million iPhones versus 5.4 million BlackBerry units in the third calendar quarter of 2008."

So, what were you saying again about RIM ? :)

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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:07 pm

syadasti wrote:iPhone own3d in 2008 period, doesn't matter about Q4. RIM is in less markets than iPhone this year and beats them in the markets they both compete in so Jobs has nothing but hot air as usual. Small niche player in a small market.


I was saying you have poor reading skills :wink:
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:10 pm

syadasti wrote:
syadasti wrote:iPhone own3d in 2008 period, doesn't matter about Q4. RIM is in less markets than iPhone this year and beats them in the markets they both compete in so Jobs has nothing but hot air as usual. Small niche player in a small market.


I was saying you have poor reading skills :wink:


Ahh gotta lov'em well chosen words ;)

Look at it any way you want it, but in the end the iPhone has sold more units then RIM. Tell me, how long has RIM been around compared to Apple ?

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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:12 pm

HAHA!!
That image about sums it up for me. :P
Though I understand why people like it, and the multi-touch is a cool thing, there is no way I'd buy a device that advanced and full of potential with a contract that says I have to wear this elastic around my jewels. :o :wink:
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:14 pm

adisor19 wrote:Ahh gotta lov'em well chosen words ;)

Look at it any way you want it, but in the end the iPhone has sold more units then RIM. Tell me, how long has RIM been around compared to Apple ?

Adi


They still haven't beaten RIM for 2008 total sales. There are four quarters in a year.

As I said, smartphones are a minute niche, even symbian which sells nearly double that of apple every quarter vs. total for apple. 1/10 of phone sales. Its not mainstream and never will be like the portable audio market with cell plans that expensive. Most people simply need a cellphone. A lot of people hate electronic leashes.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:18 pm

are you guys the same person? You're arguing awfully fast...
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:20 pm

DrDillyBar wrote:with a contract that says I have to wear this elastic around my jewels. :o :wink:


Yes very few people can afford to throw away all that money on a toy.

Here is the old one. The new one cost $10/month more for data and does not include any prepaid TXT anymore you must buy a TXT plan for $5-20/month or pay $.20/txt

http://www.ilounge.com/images/uploads/i ... lplans.jpg

It is easily over $1000/year now...

Over $250 extra over two years compared to the first generation with txt
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:21 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:are you guys the same person? You're arguing awfully fast...


I'm one of the original TR editors, I invented the Shortbread format :wink:

My first PC was a IIc, I was a sucker who bought into the Newton 120 scam, and I have a G4 mini.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:25 pm

syadasti wrote:
adisor19 wrote:Ahh gotta lov'em well chosen words ;)

Look at it any way you want it, but in the end the iPhone has sold more units then RIM. Tell me, how long has RIM been around compared to Apple ?

Adi


They still haven't beaten RIM for 2008 total sales. There are four quarters in a year.



Indeed, there are four quarters in a year. This is a taste of what's to come next year when i expect Apple to beat RIM for the entire four quarters.

Adi
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:29 pm

adisor19 wrote:Indeed, there are four quarters in a year. This is a taste of what's to come next year when i expect Apple to beat RIM for the entire four quarters.

Adi


Apple users are fickle. It never happened with the first one (see declining US [biggest market] sales below) and it won't happen with the second one. RIM's growth is long term and sustained. They are well proven.

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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:38 pm

syadasti wrote:RIM's growth is long term and sustained. They are well proven.

Nice edit speed there. RIM's stability is likely because they work for the Gove.ment, not just big buisiness. 8)
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:45 pm

DrDillyBar wrote:
syadasti wrote:RIM's growth is long term and sustained. They are well proven.

Nice edit speed there. RIM's stability is likely because they work for the Gove.ment, not just big buisiness. 8)


They've expanded to the consumer market also - Pearl, Curve etc however the iPhone is the better multimedia device. Most consumers don't realize they can just get a RIM device and add 8GB to it for $25 which takes care of the primary multimedia concern - music.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:01 pm

syadasti wrote:
DrDillyBar wrote:
syadasti wrote:RIM's growth is long term and sustained. They are well proven.

Nice edit speed there. RIM's stability is likely because they work for the Gove.ment, not just big buisiness. 8)


They've expanded to the consumer market also - Pearl, Curve etc however the iPhone is the better multimedia device. Most consumers don't realize they can just get a RIM device and add 8GB to it for $25 which takes care of the primary multimedia concern - music.

Indeed. I have 2GB's in my Curve right now. Has my whole car MP3 CD on it (with TR podcasts) and I've still got over a GB free. :wink:
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:46 pm

syadasti wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:are you guys the same person? You're arguing awfully fast...


I'm one of the original TR editors, I invented the Shortbread format :wink:

My first PC was a IIc, I was a sucker who bought into the Newton 120 scam, and I have a G4 mini.

And I'm Santa Claus. That means nothing; you could be adi too.
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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:06 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:And I'm Santa Claus. That means nothing; you could be adi too.


Yes its all a conspiracy. Where is my tinfoil hat :lol:

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Re: Apple's iPhone is true progress

Postposted on Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:09 pm

I have a G4 mini too ! Coincidence ? i think NOT ;)

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