Adobe vs. Apple

From OSX to iPods, iTunes to Mac Minis, and all other things Apple.

Moderators: David, Thresher

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:56 pm

Relied upon? You're saying that using the available tools is a bad thing? You and others have tried to pass this notion on but there's absolutely zero support for that. Using tools that allow you to simultaneously publish on multiple platforms is a good thing. Especially given that these tools have shown to have no negative impact on the quality of the applications. If you could show proof that using a third party framework leads to poor quality in applications you'd have a point. But they have absolutely nothing to do in a application being good or bad. Good developers choose good frameworks to work with and the framework developers must keep up with all the new features and added APIs from Apple to maintain competitive.

So again; how in the hell can you support this change? I've already outlined, and now numerous times, how it directly hurts consumers in the long and short runs. You've done absolutely nothing to prove your argument and what you've said is based entirely on false assumptions.
Skrying
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:37 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:24 am

Skrying wrote:You're saying that using the available tools is a bad thing?

In light of the change to section 3.3.1: Yes. Developers that coded their apps according to Apple's initial advice don't have this problem.

Skrying wrote:So again; how in the hell can you support this change? I've already outlined, and now numerous times, how it directly hurts consumers in the long and short runs. You've done absolutely nothing to prove your argument and what you've said is based entirely on false assumptions.

Apple exists to make money. It is Apple's platform. It was a business decision. Apple is protecting themselves. This is what companies do! Apple's competitors have to raise their game if they want to successfully compete in the mobile space.


Good quote from raganwald @ Hacker News: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1250946
"Getting away from the frenzied rhetoric, my opinion is that what Apple really wants to prevent is people releasing multi-platform compilers. So taking Flash as just one example, if I can build one app and the compiler can make me an iPhone executable, an Android executable, and so forth, Apple don't want that.
In my experience so far with such "cross platform compatibility layers," they always produce results that water down each platform's individual strengths and differentiations. And of course, instead of the developer being locked into the phone platform, they are locked into the compatibility layer's platform.
Adobe's Flash compiler is a classic maneuver to "commoditize your complements," as Joel put it so well. Apple don't want to be commoditized, especially if it means having apps that don't take advantage of the iPhone's strengths.
Adobe want to lock developers into Flash and commoditize everything else as Flash-delivery devices. Apple want to commoditize applications and lock developers into their APIs."

And from John Gruber: http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/why_a ... ection_331
"So from Apple’s perspective, changing the iPhone Developer Program License Agreement to prohibit the use of things like Flash CS5 and MonoTouch to create iPhone apps makes complete sense. I’m not saying you have to like this. I’m not arguing that it’s anything other than ruthless competitiveness. I’m not arguing (up to this point) that it benefits anyone other than Apple itself. I’m just arguing that it makes sense from Apple’s perspective — and it was Apple’s decision to make."
i7-3770K@4.7 | H100 | P8Z77-V PREMIUM | 16GB | 2 GTX 770 4GB SLI | M500 960GB | EVO 840 250GB | AX850 | Obsidian 550D | R.A.T. 9 | U2713H | U2711
End User
Gerbil Elite
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 971
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:33 am

Except that quote doesn't prove a lack of quality. I'll point to Tap Tap Revenge as an example once again. Good enough for Apple to use it in demonstration.

Of course Apple doesn't want these third party frameworks that allow easy multiple platform development. I've stated numerous times that the only beneficiary from this change is Apple. That doesn't mean you THE CONSUMER must suddenly accept it because it makes good business sense for Apple money-wise. You're suppose to look out for yourself, not them.

John Gruber's statement says as much as I did. It makes a ton of sense for Apple. But it makes NO SENSE AT ALL for you to support the change. It hurts YOU.

This is the base issue. Consumer looks after the consumer, consumer complains when the consumer is being hurt, consumer benefits from the complaining. Company does everything it can to get more money from the consumer. You're failing the consumer part of this equation you stated earlier, which I actually stated before you did, that is called capitalism. Stop hurting yourself.
Skrying
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:37 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:31 am

Apple's competitors will have to up their game if they want to compete. This will bring better products to market. Arguably Kin, Windows Phone 7 and Android exist because of iPhone OS. Consumers win.
i7-3770K@4.7 | H100 | P8Z77-V PREMIUM | 16GB | 2 GTX 770 4GB SLI | M500 960GB | EVO 840 250GB | AX850 | Obsidian 550D | R.A.T. 9 | U2713H | U2711
End User
Gerbil Elite
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 971
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:11 am

End User wrote:
lordT wrote:This doesn't just target Adobe. A number of successful platforms including Unity, Titanium, MonoTouch and a number of others fall into the cross hair too.

Bang on.
Crippling developers by completely disabling platforms which let the devs shorten development cycles is good for everyone?

End User wrote:
lordT wrote:They're just making counter-intuitive petty rules to hurt their developers.

It hurts the developers using the tools you mentioned. Developers that have been coding specifically for iPhone OS are smiling.
Jesus Christ. Really, you have no clue as to what the heck is going on. There is no such thing as coding for the iPhone OS platform. You target the compiler bundled with the SDK. That's it. It's like saying Windows will only allow DX based games on it. Saying which language the program has to be written in is patently ludicrous.

End User wrote:
lordT wrote:
End User wrote:Apple is basically telling developers to stop being lazy and write real iPhone/iPad apps via Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript. I wish Apple did this earlier.
You're an idiot and you should shut up right now. You have no idea as to what the unholy **** you're talking about. Please, just shut up.

Whoa. Touchy.

Have you been hit by the changes to 3.3.1? If so, are you going to abandon the iPhone OS platform to improve your time management and productivity?
Stop being daft and putting words in my mouth.

Look, as a customer I don't expect any one to go up in arms about this change. In fact, I don't want a customer to whine about this. This is an issue between Apple and its developers.

Lots of developers, including myself, are just a touch annoyed at being strong armed into either developing solely for the iPhone platform/abandoning it or spending more time and money developing multiple code bases for the same application. It's not the end of the world as far as developing is concerned, it's a matter of adapting to a different work flow but few of the developers are happy with the change. **** changes like these and the draconian review process doesn't make the Apple platform a developer's dream but right now the App Store counts for about 35-45% of our downloads so yes, we'll keep developing for it. No point in completely abandoning the platform just because the people behind it are putting up obstacles for the developers.
lordT
Darth Gerbil
 
Posts: 7426
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:11 pm
Location: Writing

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:41 am

lordT wrote:Lots of developers, including myself, are just a touch annoyed at being strong armed into either developing solely for the iPhone platform/abandoning it or spending more time and money developing multiple code bases for the same application. It's not the end of the world as far as developing is concerned, it's a matter of adapting to a different work flow but few of the developers are happy with the change. **** changes like these and the draconian review process doesn't make the Apple platform a developer's dream but right now the App Store counts for about 35-45% of our downloads so yes, we'll keep developing for it. No point in completely abandoning the platform just because the people behind it are putting up obstacles for the developers.


NO, No, No! Its a business decision on Apple's and your part. Apple made the rules to protect its hardware it up to the developer to decide if they want to follow said rules.

And as you so quaintly stated youre not giving that up because iTunes accounts for 35-45% of your downloads. Thats a lot for any developer for any one platform.

Dont blame Apple for any of your business decisions.

Skrying wrote:
End User wrote:Three years ago Apple was not in the smartphone market. Two years ago Google was not in the smartphone market. Recently we saw the announcement of Windows Phone 7 and Kin. Where is this lack of competition you speak of.


Which is the entire point! We want each one of those options to grow and be strong. We want applications available on one to be available for the other and for them to be great and useful! That's the consumers dream! For each platform to be great and useful to the consumer for even the worst choice to still be very good. By Apple forcing developers to make a choice, a choice that helps no one but Apple, we're hurting those. You're making my argument for me.


Youre an idiot. :roll:
(\_/)
(O.o)
(''')(''')
Wounded Warrior Project
Watch out for evil Terra-Tron; He Does not like you!
tanker27
Darth Gerbil
 
Posts: 7331
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:24 am

tanker27 wrote:NO, No, No! Its a business decision on Apple's and your part. Apple made the rules to protect its hardware it up to the developer to decide if they want to follow said rules.
Look, I'm not trying to be a dick here but you don't get the point. I'm not arguing that Apple isn't allowed to protect it's hardware. I just don't like being given asinine reasons for that. Saying this move is to protect the quality of apps on the platform is a lie. I've seen plenty of native obj C that are a bunch of tosh as well as apps written with MonoTouch/Titanium/Unity that completely leverage the power of the iPhone OS. Dictating which language an application is to be written in borders on arrogance and I don't appreciate it.

tanker27 wrote:And as you so quaintly stated youre not giving that up because iTunes accounts for 35-45% of your downloads. Thats a lot for any developer for any one platform.
I know it's a lot of money for a platform which is why we're continuing to develop for the platform. But know that the platform is only as powerful as the developers/apps behind it. The completely opaque review process is a pain as it is. This change will make it a little more harder for the developers.

tanker27 wrote:Dont blame Apple for any of your business decisions.
I do have the right to complain if they decide to make massive changes to the agreements whilst giving obtuse, implausible reasons.

Edit: You can find a couple of articles covering this issue at Ars here and here.
lordT
Darth Gerbil
 
Posts: 7426
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:11 pm
Location: Writing

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:53 am

lordT wrote:Look, I'm not trying to be a dick here but you don't get the point. I'm not arguing that Apple isn't allowed to protect it's hardware. I just don't like being given asinine reasons for that. Saying this move is to protect the quality of apps on the platform is a lie. I've seen plenty of native obj C that are a bunch of tosh as well as apps written with MonoTouch/Titanium/Unity that completely leverage the power of the iPhone OS. Dictating which language an application is to be written in borders on arrogance and I don't appreciate it.


I too am not trying to be a dick but you have to realize that Apple is competing against other formats and cellphones manufacturers. Also Apple has no 'direct' control over is in said MonoTouch/Titanium/Unity applications.I knows its a far reach but who knows what shortcuts those companies make in their compilers?

If you read the article I posted beforeI believe (and what the author of the article believes too) that Apple is about to change the game. They bought, bought, a processor manufacturer. They are creating their own chips now as evident in the iPad. If this is true for future Apple products, those developers that make the change and obey the rules could stand to make a windfall!

Apple is only gaining strength from the first iPod to todays iPad and new Macbook Pros (how sweet is that graphics switching!) if you jump on board, as a dev, you stand to make a lot of money.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(''')(''')
Wounded Warrior Project
Watch out for evil Terra-Tron; He Does not like you!
tanker27
Darth Gerbil
 
Posts: 7331
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:25 am

Short cuts? What could the short cuts do that would harm the iPhone platform? I'm not sure if you're aware but there is already a review process. Even then all of these frameworks simply tie in to Apple's existing APIs. Your only argument, which is a false one, is that the framework developers are making "short cuts" that result in inferior or as you're now trying to word it some type of "harmful" application. Many applications that are great already exist that use these frameworks, the ones you accuse of using short cuts.

I suggest you take a look at industrial history and see how well locked down vertical integration worked for some companies. Especially companies who product is near worthless without third party support.

I doubt you will, you're already trying to rewrite history.
Skrying
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:37 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:38 am

tanker27 wrote:I too am not trying to be a dick but you have to realize that Apple is competing against other formats and cellphones manufacturers. Also Apple has no 'direct' control over is in said MonoTouch/Titanium/Unity applications.I knows its a far reach but who knows what shortcuts those companies make in their compilers?
Far reach is the right word. MonoTouch is open source and free. You're free to sift through the code to catch these shortcuts you're talking about.

Either way, you fail to see my point and I don't think I'm going to get your Apple is always right. Obey or GTFO mentality.

Cheers on a non ad-hominem, civilized conversation, tanker. :)
lordT
Darth Gerbil
 
Posts: 7426
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:11 pm
Location: Writing

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:44 am

I really don't understand how non-programmer Apple fanboys can even enter the conversation when they A. have no idea what they're talking about and B. their livelihoods aren't affected at all by this, unlike many people who develop for the iPhone.
Image
Nitrodist
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
 
Posts: 3280
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:51 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:47 am

The final quality of applications has little to do with the toolkit used to produce it. If apple really wants to ensure quality they will hire more reviewers to spend more time with applications before they are approved. You can produce terrible applications using cocatouch and monotouch in equal measures. If you have a bad development team or poor specifications or awful design it doesn't matter what tools you use to make your app, it's going to suck 100% of the time.

Apple has rejected ebook applications because some books might have objectionable content. They just rejected a political cartoon app by a pulitzer prize winning cartoonist for mocking public figures. They made a moral sweep of the app store but left things like the playboy app. I have no problem with them wanting to set quality and functionality standards on their app store. The problem is they don't allow any other methods of installing apps. By being the sole gatekeepers to the iphone they can pull stunts like banning toolkits they don't control.

If apps made with cross platform toolkits really are lower quality people will use something else. There are 150,000 thousand apps to choose from. If the functionality or usability of an app doesn't match up for whatever reason, be it bad coding, high prices or cross platform widgets that don't look quite right people will find an alternative.
ekul
Gerbil
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:25 pm

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:55 pm

sschaem wrote:You dont use flash, ok cool. But developers do want to leverage a cross platform API.


What about the Single Unix Specification:

http://www.unix.org/online.html

There is also the OpenGL specification:

http://www.opengl.org/documentation/

I think both of these are cross platform APIs, even if you consider Windows if you consider Microsoft Windows Services for Unix:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ ... s_for_UNIX

Flash on the other hand, is not really cross platform. Flash is a meta platform. Both Flash and Java are the top two metaplatforms in use today and while they have been ported to many systems, they run like dogs regardless of the system to which they are ported. Apple is doing the right thing by keeping meta platforms off the hardware they sell.
Disclaimer: I over-analyze everything, so try not to be offended if I over-analyze something you wrote.
Shining Arcanine
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1717
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:30 am

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:56 pm

ekul wrote:The final quality of applications has little to do with the toolkit used to produce it.


If two toolkits are required for two parallel applications on different platforms, there's less time for debugging and for features. What is so complicated about that? You seem to struggle with grasping it...
Krogoth wrote:Care to enlightenment me?
grantmeaname
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1693
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:49 pm
Location: Columbus, OH

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:28 pm

lordT wrote:Far reach is the right word. MonoTouch is open source and free. You're free to sift through the code to catch these shortcuts you're talking about.

Either way, you fail to see my point and I don't think I'm going to get your Apple is always right. Obey or GTFO mentality.

Cheers on a non ad-hominem, civilized conversation, tanker. :)


Your Right theres far too much programming stuff I really dont understand, I admit that. But far from a fan boy nor do I think Apple is always right. I just cant understand how anyone blames Apple for how they want to manage their device. I also yield to understanding the devs plight with having to code twice for two different products that essentially do the same thing. But look at he market penetration the iPhone has over the Android for example (although Android is gaining ground). There comes a time where you have to make a business decision. Either you code exclusively for Apple or you augment staff to do both. Again this decision is NOT Apples problem.

Nitrodist wrote:I really don't understand how non-programmer Apple fanboys can even enter the conversation when they A. have no idea what they're talking about and B. their livelihoods aren't affected at all by this, unlike many people who develop for the iPhone.


EFF you. Nice personal attack.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(''')(''')
Wounded Warrior Project
Watch out for evil Terra-Tron; He Does not like you!
tanker27
Darth Gerbil
 
Posts: 7331
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:36 pm

Wow, glad to see everyone on both sides can make their points dispassionately, courteously, and intelligently.
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do.
derFunkenstein
Gerbil God
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 21498
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: WHAT?

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:02 pm

Apple do a one button mouse, Microsoft do a at least two button with a scroll wheel mouse. Microsoft(Adobe) offer flash and still developpe new technology for it. Apple offer nothing. Apple is a alternative for ppls who don't want to buy a PC which is the mainstream. It's like when you go at the market to buy Nuttela, you got **** alternatives just because it's neccesary to have choice.
Exo
Gerbil In Training
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:42 am

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:38 pm

lordT wrote:Crippling developers by completely disabling platforms which let the devs shorten development cycles is good for everyone?

Apple does not care about "everyone". Why should they?

lordT wrote:No point in completely abandoning the platform just because the people behind it are putting up obstacles for the developers.

lordT wrote: They're just making counter-intuitive petty rules to hurt their developers.


The "obstacles" put in place designed to to hurt the competition and strengthen the iPhone 0S platform. They are not "petty" as far as Apple is concerned.
i7-3770K@4.7 | H100 | P8Z77-V PREMIUM | 16GB | 2 GTX 770 4GB SLI | M500 960GB | EVO 840 250GB | AX850 | Obsidian 550D | R.A.T. 9 | U2713H | U2711
End User
Gerbil Elite
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 971
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:39 pm

grantmeaname wrote:
ekul wrote:The final quality of applications has little to do with the toolkit used to produce it.


If two toolkits are required for two parallel applications on different platforms, there's less time for debugging and for features. What is so complicated about that? You seem to struggle with grasping it...


If you are targeting multiple platforms then cross platform toolkits make a lot of sense. I wouldn't try to dispute that; it is the entire point of cross platform toolkits. My point is that the choice of toolkit isn't an indication of quality, as apple maintains. You can made awful apps using any set of tools. You can also make great apps using any set of tools. Apple is trying to argue that only native apps are good and I have a problem with that. Developers should be free to pick and choose the tools they use based on their needs, not on apple's whim.
ekul
Gerbil
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:25 pm

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:59 pm

Skrying wrote:John Gruber's statement says as much as I did. It makes a ton of sense for Apple. But it makes NO SENSE AT ALL for you to support the change. It hurts YOU.

This is the base issue. Consumer looks after the consumer, consumer complains when the consumer is being hurt, consumer benefits from the complaining. Company does everything it can to get more money from the consumer. You're failing the consumer part of this equation you stated earlier, which I actually stated before you did, that is called capitalism. Stop hurting yourself.

But it doesn't hurt ME. IMHO, it gives me better quality apps because they take advantage of the individual strengths of the device.

If you don't like it, don't buy an iPhone. Is that really so hard?

I'm not arguing that you should like it. You have very valid reasons for not liking it. But that doesn't translate into Apple being compelled to change their mind. If market forces punish them for this decision, they will either change their mind or go down with the ship. That's how it works in a free market. Otherwise, choose the devices that more clearly matches your ideology.

I like the iPhone because it simply works better than any other device out there. And I think this proves that they're on the right track. But I have nothing against Android. I'm glad it's here, so that it can make Apple work that much harder. Competition is good. Embrace it rather than trying to force homogenization.
Buub
Maximum Gerbil
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 4214
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 11:59 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Adobe vs. Apple

Postposted on Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:21 pm

I already pointed out how it does hurt you. Think further than the tip of your nose. In addition, there's nothing to prove or even begin to support the idea that third party frameworks that allow multiple platform development result in lower quality applications. Which is the entire issue with your's and others stance. It's based on an incorrect assumption. Your further comments seem rather... weird considering I've posted numerous times how Apple's change hurts the benefits of a competitive environment. All of those comments are in this thread, I ask you read them all before replying to me.
Skrying
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1792
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:37 am
Location: Missouri

Previous

Return to Apple Sanctuary

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest