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SecretMaster
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End of Moore's Law

Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:14 pm

Hey folks,

I rarely post here any more (more often lurk on my free time). But I read this article the other day that seems right up the alley of more knowledgeable Gerbil's

http://www.nature.com/news/the-chips-ar ... aw-1.19338

The whole article is a pretty good read I think. One snippet caught my eye in particular
The industry road map released next month will for the first time lay out a research and development plan that is not centred on Moore's law. Instead, it will follow what might be called the More than Moore strategy: rather than making the chips better and letting the applications follow, it will start with applications — from smartphones and supercomputers to data centres in the cloud — and work downwards to see what chips are needed to support them. Among those chips will be new generations of sensors, power-management circuits and other silicon devices required by a world in which computing is increasingly mobile.


Does that seem a little backwards to anyone else? Or maybe I'm misinterpreting it. It almost seems like it would be more costly/troublesome to design a chip for each application. I guess that is already done with smart phones. But I get the impression that it is "re-inventing the wheel" each time. I'm way out of my expertise base. Thoughts?
 
whm1974
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:01 pm

Yes that does seem a little backwards. But there have always been CPUs and ICs designed for special applications, smartphones and supercomputers have been and still are good examples of them.
 
just brew it!
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:37 pm

It makes sense to me. CPU performance is "good enough" for most purposes, and increasing clock speeds and IPC is becoming increasingly difficult anyway. The key to significant reductions in size and power consumption (for mobile devices) and increases in system density (for datacenters) is to integrate more functions which would have traditionally been handled by external chips and "glue logic".

Most of the tech has already been developed; it's just a matter of integrating it onto the same die.

In some ways, it's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening all along. First the FPU got integrated; then increasing levels of cache; then then the memory controller; and (more recently) the GPU. IMO moving the SoC concept from mobile into higher performance segments like desktops and servers is the logical next step.

And then you've got Intel's push into integrated CPU/FPGA hybrids. That's potentially a game changer as well (mostly for the datacenter and specific vertical market applications, I'll reckon), if it pans out.
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whm1974
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:50 pm

just brew it! wrote:
In some ways, it's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening all along. First the FPU got integrated; then increasing levels of cache; then then the memory controller; and (more recently) the GPU. IMO moving the SoC concept from mobile into higher performance segments like desktops and servers is the logical next step.

I have to agree with JBI here, SoC type CPUs for desktops and servers is the next step.
 
biffzinker
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:02 pm

whm1974 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
In some ways, it's just a continuation of a trend that has been happening all along. First the FPU got integrated; then increasing levels of cache; then then the memory controller; and (more recently) the GPU. IMO moving the SoC concept from mobile into higher performance segments like desktops and servers is the logical next step.

I have to agree with JBI here, SoC type CPUs for desktops and servers is the next step.

You mean for Servers/Enterprise we already had SoC on the desktop, laptop.

whm1974 wrote:
Yes that does seem a little backwards. But there have always been CPUs and ICs designed for special applications, smartphones and supercomputers have been and still are good examples of them.

I believe what you were looking for is called a Digital Signal Processor, example of one in a smartphone would be the ISP (Image Signal Processor.)
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:05 pm

biffzinker wrote:
You mean for Servers/Enterprise we already had SoC on the desktop, laptop.

There's still room for higher levels of integration on the desktop.
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biffzinker
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:37 pm

just brew it! wrote:
biffzinker wrote:
You mean for Servers/Enterprise we already had SoC on the desktop, laptop.

There's still room for higher levels of integration on the desktop.


Tell me what else is there left to integrate into the SoC for this motherboard?
Image
It would take you 2,363 continuous hours or 98 days,11 hours, and 35 minutes of gameplay to complete your Steam library.
In this time you could travel to Venus one time.
 
just brew it!
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:10 pm

biffzinker wrote:
Tell me what else is there left to integrate into the SoC for this motherboard?

I still see four ASICs on there that aren't clearly part of the power delivery infrastructure... :wink:
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whm1974
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:20 pm

What about the Southbridge?
 
biffzinker
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:41 pm

whm1974 wrote:
What about the Southbridge?

It's with the CPU on die, making it a System on Chip.

The platform, previously known as socket FS1b, works with dual- and quad-core "Kabini" Accelerated Processing Units, built on "Jaguar" CPU microarchitecture and Graphics Core Next GPU architecture. The APUs also integrate a DDR3 memory controller, that supports data rates up to 1600 MHz. Furthermore, the chip integrates a Fusion Controller Hub (FCH), providing such functionality as USB 2.0/3.0 and SATA 6 GB/s data I/O interfaces, as well as VGA, DisplayPort and HDMI video interfaces.


Source: AMD Athlon 5350 at CPU World
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The Egg
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:21 pm

biffzinker wrote:
Tell me what else is there left to integrate into the SoC for this motherboard?
http://i63.tinypic.com/20qe3ur.jpg

That board has Realtek audio and a Realtek gigabit NIC (you can see one of them in the upper left). I'm not sure I'd want audio or a NIC integrated onto the CPU, but yeah.

The issue of integration will become much more interesting when HBM hits the desktop.
 
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:43 pm

The Egg wrote:
biffzinker wrote:
Tell me what else is there left to integrate into the SoC for this motherboard?
http://i63.tinypic.com/20qe3ur.jpg

That board has Realtek audio and a Realtek gigabit NIC (you can see one of them in the upper left). I'm not sure I'd want audio or a NIC integrated onto the CPU, but yeah.

The issue of integration will become much more interesting when HBM hits the desktop.

Audio, maybe not (unless the DAC is still a separate chip). For the NIC, why not?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
meerkt
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:31 pm

I want a CPU with an integrated USB port, IEC C14 receptacle, and a floppy drive.
 
localhostrulez
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:33 pm

meerkt wrote:
I want a CPU with an integrated USB port, IEC C14 receptacle, and a floppy drive.

Hey, some people do call those things "CPUs". :)
 
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:39 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
meerkt wrote:
I want a CPU with an integrated USB port, IEC C14 receptacle, and a floppy drive.

Hey, some people do call those things "CPUs". :)

And some people call them "hard drives". Though I don't think I've encountered this particular form of dain bramage in a decade or so...
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whm1974
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:45 pm

I ran across a few people who call computers "hard drives" and the display the "computer". And no I do not consider AIOs to be real computers.
 
just brew it!
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:50 pm

whm1974 wrote:
And no I do not consider AIOs to be real computers.

Why not? They meet any reasonable definition of "computer"!
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
whm1974
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:52 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Why not? They meet any reasonable definition of "computer"!

Well I really consider them to be junk...
 
whm1974
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:36 pm

What, no rebuttal?
 
just brew it!
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:42 pm

whm1974 wrote:
What, no rebuttal?

What, I'm supposed to watch the forum 24x7 and respond immediately to every post that questions something I've posted?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
biffzinker
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:47 pm

whm1974 wrote:
What, no rebuttal?

All in Ones at this point in time are not junk, in the past yes.
It would take you 2,363 continuous hours or 98 days,11 hours, and 35 minutes of gameplay to complete your Steam library.
In this time you could travel to Venus one time.
 
biffzinker
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:49 pm

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
What, no rebuttal?

What, I'm supposed to watch the forum 24x7 and respond immediately to every post that questions something I've posted?

Yes, didn't you hear? Your on call 24/7 even on the weekend away from the day job. :P
It would take you 2,363 continuous hours or 98 days,11 hours, and 35 minutes of gameplay to complete your Steam library.
In this time you could travel to Venus one time.
 
JustAnEngineer
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:52 pm

An all-in-one PC is basically a laptop built into the back of a desktop display. They can be just as good as a laptop, except that they're not portable. That means that they suffer from the same major shortcomings of a laptop: They're more expensive than equivalent performance in a desktop micro-ATX form factor when new, they cannot handle the heat of powerful gaming GPUs and they have little or no room for expansion or upgrades.

For me, the crime of the all-in-one PC is that the graphics and processor are going to become obsolete in less than one quarter of the lifetime of the monitor. You're going to end up throwing away an otherwise perfectly good monitor prematurely because it has a broken or obsolete PC built into the back of it.

If you want something that looks like an all-in-one but is more upgradeable, get a good monitor and mount a NUC-like PC to the back of it. When the PC is obsolete, swap it out and keep using the monitor.
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localhostrulez
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:23 pm

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
And no I do not consider AIOs to be real computers.

Why not? They meet any reasonable definition of "computer"!

Hey, I consider the ECU in my car to be a computer! (The funny thing is I did actually get it to glitch once, very briefly. Stick the key in and crank like a madman, giving it zero time to actually check the sensors first, and apparently it's possible to trip the immobilizer/handshake. But otherwise, they're pretty damned reliable computers.)
 
whm1974
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:28 pm

OK I should have said I don't consider AIOs to real "PCs". Does that sound better?
 
just brew it!
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:56 pm

whm1974 wrote:
OK I should have said I don't consider AIOs to real "PCs". Does that sound better?

Only marginally. In what way are they not a "PC"?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
whm1974
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:32 pm

just brew it! wrote:

Only marginally. In what way are they not a "PC"?[/quote]
This will be a real long answer...
 
Pancake
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:47 pm

SecretMaster wrote:
Hey folks,
Does that seem a little backwards to anyone else? Or maybe I'm misinterpreting it. It almost seems like it would be more costly/troublesome to design a chip for each application. I guess that is already done with smart phones. But I get the impression that it is "re-inventing the wheel" each time. I'm way out of my expertise base. Thoughts?


Umm, chips are designed for particular applications. Has always been the way. It's about requirements analysis, market niche etc There's always been vast compendiums of "application notes" to go with every processor I've designed with... There are many processors in addition to your main CPU in your PC doing very application specific things.
 
biffzinker
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:04 am

whm1974 wrote:
And no I do not consider AIOs to be real computers.


A smartphone is another example of all in one personal computing device, do you consider smartphones junk/not real computers?
How's that for a rebuttal? :P
It would take you 2,363 continuous hours or 98 days,11 hours, and 35 minutes of gameplay to complete your Steam library.
In this time you could travel to Venus one time.
 
Glorious
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Re: End of Moore's Law

Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:48 am

whm1974 wrote:
Well I really consider them to be junk...


The Packard-Bell PCs from around 20 years ago were absolute junk, horrifically awful. PCworld literally named the brand the #1 worst PC of all time.

But they were still PCs.

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