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Usacomp2k3
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New Receiver

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:09 pm

Major store on Craigslist this weekend. Picked up an old Denon Receiver for $150. http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR4310CI-C ... B002AKKFQC
It is a beast of a machine. More settings than I know what to do with. It even has a built in web-server so I can do simple controls via a web-page. I need to seriously read the manual and figure out how to control the dual video outputs and Main + 2 extra zones of audio. It is not the most straightforward setup from what I've found so far, but understandable for a $2000 receiver intended for the Custom Integration market. I do like that it will upconvert my NES/SNES to HDMI for running on the projector though.
Time to find some good high quality audio to sample with also. Wonder where I can find some 24/192 sample tracks. Hmm.
 
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Re: New Receiver

Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:06 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Wonder where I can find some 24/192 sample tracks.
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Re: New Receiver

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:48 am

That is a steal for $150. Let me guess, rich person cleaning out the garage? :wink:
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NovusBogus
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Re: New Receiver

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:31 pm

Let me know how the SNES-to-HDMI upconverting goes, whether it's got horrible unplayable lag or not...inability to play old consoles on my TV is an incredible frustration and I'd be willing to drop a fair chunk of change to fix that.
 
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Re: New Receiver

Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:49 pm

My sons been bugging me to put Mario on there for awhile. (he's three and only remembers the 1 time we took the NES to a rental Cabin over a year ago, yet I hear about "when are you going to connect Mario" 2-3 times a week. I'm not going to break it to him that the gun won't work on the projector for Duck Hunt.

I'll try and get it tonight and see how it goes. I might need some new cabling for RF->component.
 
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Re: New Receiver

Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:13 am

NovusBogus wrote:
Let me know how the SNES-to-HDMI upconverting goes, whether it's got horrible unplayable lag or not...inability to play old consoles on my TV is an incredible frustration and I'd be willing to drop a fair chunk of change to fix that.

What type of connection methods have you tried unsuccessfully? I believe new LCD sets have to do an analog-to-digital conversion on the signal, as well as additional processing if it needs to be deinterlaced. Converting and/or deinterlacing the signal before it reaches the TV may indeed reduce your lag (if the problem is the TV scaler hardware), but you would need to buy a nearly identical receiver to guarantee the same results.

Before doing that, would read up on a few devices such as this. (I'm not recommending that one specifically, it's just the first one I found)
 
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Re: New Receiver

Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:09 pm

Wtf... $150 dang... nice deal. And that saying, I'm sitting here with a 4308A on my computer for some 5.1 loving and a 4520 on my home theater.

Just make sure you do your audyssey setup correctly, and read the instructions and use the right game mode and source setups. But it will serve you well for a good while.
 
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Re: New Receiver

Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:00 pm

My old Onkyo has fallen prey to HDMI board issue that are known to hit its ilk. I've been trying to find an X4000 to replace it with, but they seem to be very hard to find in a physical store and I'd really like to play with it first. I'm quite jealous. ( and heading off to check the local Craig's list postings )

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Re: New Receiver

Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:22 pm

I am also jealous. I have a not-so-old Yamaha that pre-dates all the bells and whistles I currently desire. :/
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the
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Re: New Receiver

Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:59 pm

NovusBogus wrote:
Let me know how the SNES-to-HDMI upconverting goes, whether it's got horrible unplayable lag or not...inability to play old consoles on my TV is an incredible frustration and I'd be willing to drop a fair chunk of change to fix that.


The SNES does output an RGB signal via the Multi-AV connector. Some TV's can toggle between component and RPG modes for the same physical input. This would save your a conversion step depending upon your TV and saving you the latency of a convertor/scalar.
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Re: New Receiver

Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:27 pm

the wrote:
Some TV's can toggle between component and RPG modes for the same physical input.

That's a fantastic typo given the subject.
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Re: New Receiver

Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:26 pm

I'd totally buy a receiver that had a specific SNES/Chrono-Trigger mode.
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Re: New Receiver

Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:28 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Time to find some good high quality audio to sample with also. Wonder where I can find some 24/192 sample tracks. Hmm.


https://ponomusic.force.com/ and http://www.hdtracks.com/ will be happy to $ell you all the ultrasonic distortion you'd ever want! ;)

Please read http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html before sacrificing your $ at the altar of overkill. The videos at http://www.xiph.org/video/ are also worthwhile, IMO.
 
Acidicheartburn
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Re: New Receiver

Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:10 pm

@Geonerd,

Thanks for posting that. I watched the second video and read through the article. As a high-end audio enthusiast it has given me a lot to think about. I try to keep an open mind, especially towards being more objective. Its nice to hear from someone who seems genuinely and legitimately knowledgeable about audio production. There's so much misinformation surrounding audio, much of it I'm sure comes from sources who would have the people believe in lies in order to make a bigger profit.
 
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:56 am

Acidicheartburn wrote:
@Geonerd,

Thanks for posting that. I watched the second video and read through the article. As a high-end audio enthusiast it has given me a lot to think about. I try to keep an open mind, especially towards being more objective. Its nice to hear from someone who seems genuinely and legitimately knowledgeable about audio production. There's so much misinformation surrounding audio, much of it I'm sure comes from sources who would have the people believe in lies in order to make a bigger profit.

I've also slowly started to get into this. Bit by bit, going from cheap PC speakers to better ones, and finally getting bookshelf units. Though I do wonder - what do you guys think of the little Lepai amps? They aren't the same as a receiver, but mine seems to sound pretty good. For all I know, I could be totally wrong - all I know is that this setup sounds better than anything I've ever had before, for sure. The problem with receivers is I wouldn't mind a digital input and subwoofer output, but it seems you only get that if you get a basic 5.1 thing (ie. not those basic, analog-only 2.0 receivers). And that seems downright overkill when you don't even own a TV, much less a full 5.1 system. But with some of the cheap, used units I see lying around, I have to wonder how good the audio quality is.
 
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:43 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
what do you guys think of the little Lepai amps?

I think that a lot of people buying bookshelf speakers + small amps would be far better off with a pair of studio monitors :)
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localhostrulez
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:48 pm

morphine wrote:
localhostrulez wrote:
what do you guys think of the little Lepai amps?

I think that a lot of people buying bookshelf speakers + small amps would be far better off with a pair of studio monitors :)

Whay do you say that? People really seem to like the BS22's on audio forums, though some people were recommending amps as expensive as the speakers to go with it (ie. $130). I can also tack a sub on later - not sure if I want to or not. And I kinda like the idea of separate component systems - as long as the world doesn't go to hell and soundbars and BT speakers become the only thing available, I should never have a problem finding something to drive these if my amp dies.

On the other hand, one of my friends does have monitors - Presnous E5's as I recall. I haven't had a chance to check those out yet.

I thought the point of monitors was to be accurate at a desk, while bookshelves are more about filling the room as well. And it turns out that I'll likely be moving into a house next year, not an apartment, so a sub may make a little more sense here. I'm going from cramped dorms to a house with an actual garage and yard. Yay!
 
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:52 pm

I have no experience with the Lepai amps, or Class-T amps in general. That being said, you'll always get better sound out of dedicated 2 channel amp than you will from a similarly priced receiver, unless the amp in question is of poor quality/terrible value.

The Pioneer BS22's are fantastic little speakers for the price. I've had the opportunity to hear them on a high end system at Avahifi (Audio by Van Alstine). The BS22's were designed by Andrew Jones, a very well respected high-end speaker builder using trickle down technology and techniques. Pioneer pulled a great move when they hired him on to develop that line of speakers. It just goes to show that every once and a while even a relatively cheap mainstream brand can pull out a few surprises here and there.

I've never used monitors, though I have been interested in buying a pair for my computer listening. I'd be afraid that if anything in their amp/preamp section goes bad then they'll be a problem to fix. Plus, using external amps and preamps means you can always further upgrade their sound later on. The advantage of a studio monitor is that they simplify the setup and are more compact. Not everyone has room for an amp and preamp or integrated amp at a computer desk.
 
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:47 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
I thought the point of monitors was to be accurate at a desk, while bookshelves are more about filling the room as well.

Ah, if you're on a room with a couch, then yeah, bookshelf speakers are probably the best.

I mention studio monitors as often the best choice because for small spaces and/or desks, as they make far more sense. No need to have an amp, just plug and go. The price/sound ratio is usually better than amp+passives, and there are models out there with USB interfaces so there's no need to worry about the quality of your analog outs.
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:06 pm

morphine wrote:
I mention studio monitors as often the best choice because for small spaces and/or desks, as they make far more sense. No need to have an amp, just plug and go. The price/sound ratio is usually better than amp+passives, and there are models out there with USB interfaces so there's no need to worry about the quality of your analog outs.

I'd be all over the AudioEngine A2+ with the A8 sub if the sub's crossover filtered what goes to the the A2+s. Both get full range, which destroys the whole concept of 2.1. The satellites waste amp power reproducing bass handled by the sub, which means the usual mid-bass overload.
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:16 pm

The A8 has full crossover/phase/voume control knobs, so you can combine it with your regular speakers. I'm doing something quiet similar myself, I have a pair of Tannoy bookshelf speakers and a REL Quake, both feeding from the same high-level (yes, really) input. I just set the Quake's crossover to a bit lower and set the volume accordingly.

Unless I'm missing something, this should get you what you want. Alternatively, it an LFE input, which means that you can have your soundcard/software do the crossover itself.
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:26 pm

morphine wrote:
The A8 has full crossover/phase/voume control knobs, so you can combine it with your regular speakers. I'm doing something quiet similar myself, I have a pair of Tannoy bookshelf speakers and a REL Quake, both feeding from the same high-level (yes, really) input. I just set the Quake's crossover to a bit lower and set the volume accordingly.

Unless I'm missing something, this should get you what you want. Alternatively, it an LFE input, which means that you can have your soundcard/software do the crossover itself.

The FAQ for the A8 makes it quite clear that the RCA output that would go to the A2+ is a full-range output.

Audioengine wrote:
Does the crossover on the S8 adjust the frequencies played by speakers connected to the RCA line output?
The S8's crossover is a variable low-pass filter, and will not adjust the audio for the RCA output connection. This is a full range line level output.

The whole reason for adding a sub to a pair of good small desktop speakers is to keep the bass out of the desktops. I've looked at a few of these systems and none of them are "true 2.1".
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:30 pm

Ok, here's what I'm not getting. If you set the crossover point reasonably low, in practice, little to none of the frequencies handled by the sub will be handled by the desktops too, which have a limited bass range to begin with.

So, your thinking is correct in theory, but in practice I don't think it'll make any appreciable difference. I know I'm okay with my setup, with the only problem being that these speakers are not meant for a close listening position - they'll get moved to the living room when I can afford some KRKs.
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localhostrulez
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:37 pm

morphine wrote:
Ok, here's what I'm not getting. If you set the crossover point reasonably low, in practice, little to none of the frequencies handled by the sub will be handled by the desktops too, which have a limited bass range to begin with.

So, your thinking is correct in theory, but in practice I don't think it'll make any appreciable difference. I know I'm okay with my setup, with the only problem being that these speakers are not meant for a close listening position - they'll get moved to the living room when I can afford some KRKs.

I think the whole idea is that the main speakers tend to perform better if they don't even try to reproduce the lower frequencies. My bs22's can do midbass fine (down to ~50Hz, really tapers off past that), but I've heard that if you add a sub and don't send bass frequencies to the main ones in the first place, they can really concentrate on the mid and upper stuff, and really shine at it.

Reminds me of a friend's setup. Lepai TA2020+ (same thing that's driving my BS22's), and some cheap, single-driver speakers he bought at goodwill. Those play sine tones fine down to ~50Hz, but sound like garbage when I play music on them. Treble is muffled, bass is MIA, etc, even when I try to exaggerate it with EQ settings. I think they just can't do all the frequencies, all at once.
 
Captain Ned
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:38 pm

morphine wrote:
Ok, here's what I'm not getting. If you set the crossover point reasonably low, in practice, little to none of the frequencies handled by the sub will be handled by the desktops too, which have a limited bass range to begin with.

No. The desktops are seeing the same full-range signal that the sub sees, thus they try to reproduce it and waste valuable amp power trying to reproduce frequencies they simply cannot. The sub's daisy-chain output is full-range and unmodified by the crossover settings on the sub. I've looked at a bunch of "2.1" systems and this seems to be the default. I've yet to find a true 2.1 where the crossover network in the sub strips what the sub will play from the feed to the desktops.

localhostrulez wrote:
I think the whole idea is that the main speakers tend to perform better if they don't even try to reproduce the lower frequencies. My bs22's can do midbass fine (down to ~50Hz, really tapers off past that), but I've heard that if you add a sub and don't send bass frequencies to the main ones in the first place, they can really concentrate on the mid and upper stuff, and really shine at it.

That's exactly what I'm getting at, and it's something the popular powered monitor + sub combos don't appear to do.
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:29 pm

Acidicheartburn wrote:
@Geonerd,

Thanks for posting that. I watched the second video and read through the article. As a high-end audio enthusiast it has given me a lot to think about. I try to keep an open mind, especially towards being more objective. Its nice to hear from someone who seems genuinely and legitimately knowledgeable about audio production. There's so much misinformation surrounding audio, much of it I'm sure comes from sources who would have the people believe in lies in order to make a bigger profit.


Glad you liked the info. :)

Yea, it's hard not to be cynical when the musicians who are suddenly making noise about 'Bringing the full experience to the user' are the same people who have released one dynamically crushed album after another.

Browsing http://dr.loudness-war.info/ it's not hard to find 'HD remastered' audio that has significantly LESS DR than a the original Redbook CD (or even the vinyl release.) IMO, it's pretty clear that generating sales has always been more important than providing genuinely enhanced audio.

Then you have manufacturers like Sony telling outright lies about how sampling works... :evil:
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morphine
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:55 pm

Ned, but it's not the same amp driving all the speakers. The satellites have their own amp, and so does the sub. It's not like it's going to rob them of any power.

Now, if it were the same amp driving all three, the story would be different.
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localhostrulez
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:29 pm

morphine wrote:
Ned, but it's not the same amp driving all the speakers. The satellites have their own amp, and so does the sub. It's not like it's going to rob them of any power.

Now, if it were the same amp driving all three, the story would be different.

Yes, but even though the amp is only for the satellite speakers, those speakers are still wasting their own amp's power trying to reproduce frequencies that they can't do very well. And again, I think the speakers themselves have an easier time producing good sound if they don't have to try producing bass frequencies as well.
 
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:55 pm

Geonerd wrote:
Browsing http://dr.loudness-war.info/ it's not hard to find 'HD remastered' audio that has significantly LESS DR than a the original Redbook CD (or even the vinyl release.) IMO, it's pretty clear that generating sales has always been more important than providing genuinely enhanced audio.

I discovered something interesting about a decade ago when I digitized a lot of my old vinyl. I happened to notice that without replaygain applied, my vinyl rips sounded a lot quieter than my CD rips, even if I normalized everything to 100%. After some further analysis of the ripped files, I concluded that on average CDs were being mastered with 6 to 10 dB less dynamic range compared to most of my old vinyl collection! WTF... loudness wars indeed!

More recently, I learned what happens to CDs that have the "HDCD" logo on them. To make a long story short, some additional meta-data is encoded in the audio stream, allowing you to gain back 6 dB of dynamic range. The catch is, unless you use a CD player with a HDCD decoder in it, you hear the compressed version. What a crock! Just leave the extra dynamic range in there to begin with, and forget about requiring special playback equipment! :roll:

Geonerd wrote:
Then you have manufacturers like Sony telling outright lies about how sampling works... :evil:

That diagram is an excellent example of what happens when you run a technical topic through a marketing filter! :lol:
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morphine
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Re: New Receiver

Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:01 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
Yes, but even though the amp is only for the satellite speakers, those speakers are still wasting their own amp's power trying to reproduce frequencies that they can't do very well. And again, I think the speakers themselves have an easier time producing good sound if they don't have to try producing bass frequencies as well.

The point is, they're not going to sound any worse than before you added the sub. :)

If you want to rephrase as "I'd like to give my satellite speakers some extra oomph by taking away the sub-[100/150/whatever] frequencies from them", then I can understand (but I'll disagree about the practicality).
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