More Creative bashing?

[Flying Fox]

I think I would stir up the pot here a little bit, seeing the Vista bitching has gotten so hot why not Creative too?

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/29/crea ... ista-driv/



Man Creative is still dropping fast on my respect list. My last Creative sound card was the Live! (or AWE32?) and I have been using onboard audio ever since. Pretty soon it will end up in the same category as SCO and Rambus.

[Captain Ned]

If this guy was truly using Creative IP to make his designer drivers, he's clearly in the wrong. Hate Creative all you want; that still doesn't allow unlicensed use of their IP.

[just brew it!]

Sounds like he was distributing modified Creative drivers, so yeah he was technically distributing Creative IP.

However... given that he's apparently fixing Creative's driver bugs for them, and thereby making Creative's products more functional (and more attractive to potential buyers), it seems like a pretty boneheaded move on Creative's part to shut him down. If they had any brains, they'd allow him to continue distributing his modded drivers, or even offer him a job on their driver development team.

[Sargent Duck]

Update: It seems Creative has decided to allow Daniel_K to continue with one particular endeavor at least, noting that "as long as no intellectual property of Creative is distributed, [it] will have no problem with it."

LOL @ Creative

[bthylafh]

I'm glad ATI and Nvidia aren't that way with the Omega Drivers guy.

[l33t-g4m3r]

nvidia has called the dogs on ngohq, and perhaps a few other lesser know sites for distributing modded drivers, but they stay away from the well know modders so they don't piss everyone off.
haven't really heard ati ever doing that, even with crap stuff like the DNA drivers. *shudders*

there's always YouP-Pax for your creative needs.
and the redocnexk mod is a more legal way of going digital.

A mod I'd really like to see created, is something that would enable the I/O bay on the prelude. I'd even donate money to the guy who did it.

[just brew it!]

haven't really heard ati ever doing that, even with crap stuff like the DNA drivers. *shudders*

Given ATI/AMD's stated intent of releasing detailed tech specs for their GPUs to the Open Source community, I'd say they are significantly more "mod friendly".

[themattman]

Sounds like he was distributing modified Creative drivers, so yeah he was technically distributing Creative IP.

However... given that he's apparently fixing Creative's driver bugs for them, and thereby making Creative's products more functional (and more attractive to potential buyers), it seems like a pretty boneheaded move on Creative's part to shut him down. If they had any brains, they'd allow him to continue distributing his modded drivers, or even offer him a job on their driver development team.

Tech companies need to realize that when dealing with internet related matters, they need to think very carefully pertaining to what they say and how they say it. Regardless of which party is "correct", the PR getting out is mostly against Creative.

I like the idea about hiring Daniel_K, the person who did the work on supplying working drivers. Even giving him some sort of stipend or cash "bonus" could have solved this problem.

Also, Vista has been out for how long? It is Microsofts flagship operating system and the company is not able to get out drivers? I was planning on getting a Creative sound card for a new system, but after this I need to seriously consider it because I plan to run Vista.

/rant

[JustAnEngineer]

Creative pushed out new X-Fi drivers for Vista 64-bit this week. I'm having no trouble here.

[l33t-g4m3r]

this is a grain of sand in the desert of reasons why 3d audio is dead.
I just checked creative's forums, and they have hit the beehive. People are pissed off.

[danny e.]

meh. I decided never to buy a creative product way back in 2001 during the whole fiasco with VIA chipsets....

to me its sad that its 2008 and most people are just beginning to realize that Creative sucks.

[Captain Ned]

Tech companies need to realize that when dealing with internet related matters, they need to think very carefully pertaining to what they say and how they say it. Regardless of which party is "correct", the PR getting out is mostly against Creative.

Ah, so negative PR from the Internet is justification for violating Creative's IP?

I like the idea about hiring Daniel_K, the person who did the work on supplying working drivers. Even giving him some sort of stipend or cash "bonus" could have solved this problem.

Was Daniel_K willing to sign over IP rights to Creative? If not, Creative had no reason to deal with him.

Also, Vista has been out for how long? It is Microsofts flagship operating system and the company is not able to get out drivers? I was planning on getting a Creative sound card for a new system, but after this I need to seriously consider it because I plan to run Vista.

Other than the simple fact that Vista cares squat-all about EAX and all of Creative's IP, your position is basically: "Wahh, I want Creative to give me X and, if they won't, it's OK to get X from someone who misuses Creative IP." It's this self-absorbed "gimme for free or I pirate" mentality that needs to be beaten out all of you snot-nosed "the Web means Free" punks that are screwing the works for those of us who abide by the rules.

[/non-mod]

[NeXus 6]

this is a grain of sand in the desert of reasons why 3d audio is dead.
I just checked creative's forums, and they have hit the beehive. People are pissed off.

Yep. This might be the final nail in the coffin for Creative. This blow will be hard to recover from. I'm looking at alternatives for my next rig.

[Flying Fox]

If I'm getting the facts straight this is mostly concerned with the the Audigy4 cards? So it's akin to the nForce3 situation, the difference being someone was able to mod the drivers to make Vista support possible.

If the post by the mod there in the forums was the "warning notice", then it's just bad.

But then of course, people are pissed for the nForce3 thing, so it's understandable why people are not happy in this case also. Sure they have every right to close off the IP, but the company image is still taking a hit (and it's not high to begin with).

I wonder if they at least offer the guy to sign an NDA so he can at least work on the mods without too much trouble. Not all coders are "it must be FOSS or else", some are willing to work with the companies. I think the guy who wrote MBM offered the mobo manufacturers such olive branch too but he was basically ignored?

this is a grain of sand in the desert of reasons why 3d audio is dead.
I just checked creative's forums, and they have hit the beehive. People are pissed off.

Yep. This might be the final nail in the coffin for Creative. This blow will be hard to recover from. I'm looking at alternatives for my next rig.

Asus is trying hard, and so do a few others. However, Creative can still bring out the lawyers if things get rough, and this will do nothing to stop the death spiral of discrete audio processing, which is what I am afraid of. Everything when tech matters need to get settled in the courtroom it's going to be ugly. The irony in this is that spending on R&D to bring up better and more innovative products will be more expensive than paying lawyers with their outrageous fees.

[l33t-g4m3r]

reading over the thread, it seems the modded drivers were for ~all creative cards.
he was fixing vista problems and enabling features that creative deliberately crippled to make audigy owners buy x-fi's.
however when he started accepting donations, and enabling hidden things in the drivers that creative didn't want getting out (ddl?), creative got pissed and threatened him.
The users are pissed because he was stopped from providing support that creative doesn't want to do.

I don't think he's a great cause, as he was doing some dodgy stuff, but nonetheless, it apparently was the straw that broke the camels back.

Last Audigy2 Driver
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy series Vista Driver 2.12.0002 (38.30 MB) 16 Mar 07

Known issues:

* Applications from the original Sound Blaster Audigy CD will not work with this download.
* Users are advised to use Audio Console included in this download to change speaker configurations.
* This driver does not support the following:
o Decoding of Dolby® Digital and DTS™ signals
o DVD-Audio
o DirectSound®-based EAX games
o Gameports
o 6.1 speaker mode.

16 Mar 07....

edit:
I guess this is why people are pissed.
he got all that stuff working, and creative didn't want it to work.
I don't think that was the problem though, i think it was about enabling DDL, and not about fixing the drivers.

[l33t-g4m3r]

thread is absolutely hilarious. can't stop reading.
edit: ok to post pic? just wondering.

[NeXus 6]

however when he started accepting donations, and enabling hidden things in the drivers that creative didn't want getting out (ddl?), creative got pissed and threatened him.
The users are pissed because he was stopped from providing support that creative doesn't want to do.

The donations were for his effort. I doubt he made much from it. Creative could have simply told him to quit accepting donations and leave the modded drivers downloads posted. But the damage is done.

I agree that Creative has a right to their IP, but this is just bad PR for a company that's been losing money.

[Peffse]

Also, Vista has been out for how long? It is Microsofts flagship operating system and the company is not able to get out drivers? I was planning on getting a Creative sound card for a new system, but after this I need to seriously consider it because I plan to run Vista.

Other than the simple fact that Vista cares squat-all about EAX and all of Creative's IP, your position is basically: "Wahh, I want Creative to give me X and, if they won't, it's OK to get X from someone who misuses Creative IP." It's this self-absorbed "gimme for free or I pirate" mentality that needs to be beaten out all of you snot-nosed "the Web means Free" punks that are screwing the works for those of us who abide by the rules.

[/non-mod]

I don't see this as a "gimme for free or I pirate" situation (and who are you callin' snot nosed punks?). If I understand correctly, these drivers from Daniel_K are just making qualities that should be there (and are featured in most cases) work correctly. I can see this situation happening if the product were antique, and the OS brand new, but the cards in question (audigy4 etc) are still being commercially sold and as such should still be supported, especially for an OS that's been out for over a year and in developers hands longer.

My question is, if Creative had proper drivers and support, would people know or care about Daniel_K's drivers at all? He'd be a blip on the radar. He probably wouldn't have pursued "Creative's IP" at all. Fact is, he did, he helped make a broken product work, and now most people on those forums are siding with him.





....now watch, I'm gonna be completely and totally wrong, Daniel_K will be a trojan/backdoor maker and I'll have egg all over my face. haha.

[morphine]

I can see a legal argument over features that were always disabled by Creative's choice, no matter how wrong they may be. However, if the modder decided to fix stuff that was broken when moving on to Vista, then by all means, I think the Creative management is pretty stupid. Just hire the guy, release the drivers, and everyone ends up happy. At least it makes sense to me.

[JustAnEngineer]

Dolby digital decoding requires that a license be paid to Dolby Labs. Violating that license would definitely wake up the lawyers at Creative.

[themattman]

Ah, so negative PR from the Internet is justification for violating Creative's IP?

I think I may have said this in the wrong way, but Creative handled this without thinking clearly. Like I said above, how you say something can affect the response. Negative PR is not justification for violating Creative's IP, of course. But when users had no choice to get working drivers, someone took up the challenge and provided them. Most people who actually search online for drivers and know what they are doing usually are dedicated consumers because they know exactly what product they bought and for what reason. (Unlike most consumers who buy a preconfigured PC and really have no idea how it works on the inside) Yes, some copyright laws may have been broken, but Creative should have realized that maybe it was the lesser of two evils to let Daniel_K to continue his work. I am not saying either party is 100% right or wrong, I just am offering my opinion.

Other than the simple fact that Vista cares squat-all about EAX and all of Creative's IP, your position is basically: "Wahh, I want Creative to give me X and, if they won't, it's OK to get X from someone who misuses Creative IP." It's this self-absorbed "gimme for free or I pirate" mentality that needs to be beaten out all of you snot-nosed "the Web means Free" punks that are screwing the works for those of us who abide by the rules.

Many people paid money to acquire a sound card. On the box it says it will be compatible with Vista. When the consumer tries to make these drivers work, they won't. Therefore, their $80 on an audio card is money wasted as they now need to find something else that will work. Drivers for most sites don't require you to pay money for them. Printer, audio, and external hardware do not require payment. So how is creative losing money from consumer who already purchased their product and just want it to work? If I bought a new car and the the company uses a special computer program to control the air conditioning, but it doesn't work, and the company has not released an update to fix the problem, am I supposed to keep using the $50,000 car when a major feature is crippled? Should a man who loves cars and helping people who can fix the problem be sued and his product taken off the market?

This is not Photoshop, where the software costs hundreds of dollars and the company is losing money on each sale.

[just brew it!]

Creative pushed out new X-Fi drivers for Vista 64-bit this week. I'm having no trouble here.

Interesting timing. Let the driver mod community do their thing for months, until the official drivers don't suck any more; then send a pack of lawyers after them.

meh. I decided never to buy a creative product way back in 2001 during the whole fiasco with VIA chipsets....

to me its sad that its 2008 and most people are just beginning to realize that Creative sucks.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I never had any trouble with Creative cards on VIA based motherboards.

***

Slightly OT... given that I'm starting to seriously move on migrating to Linux, going forward I'll only be buying cards that are well-supported by the Open Source community. Given Creative's tight control over their IP, Open Source drivers for Creative cards will always lag a generation or more behind... so I'd pretty much decided not to buy any more Creative cards already. For my first serious Linux workstation build, I plan to haul out my M-Audio Revolution card; it's been sitting unused because the Windows drivers sucked pretty badly, and M-Audio basically abandoned the card (the drivers weren't updated for years). So Creative isn't the only one with driver issues... just the most visible.

[FubbHead]

I think we need one of those "Positive talk about Creative" thread right about now.

[morphine]

I think we need one of those "Positive talk about Creative" thread right about now.

I think the only post there would be a Newegg Hot Deal, at best.

[Krogoth]

Creative is finished. Whatever the guy's actions are wrong or not. They took one of the worse possible approaches to resolve the problem.

They have completely alienated their only remaining market segment. The enthusiast. I bet their stock is going to plummet tomorrow.

I just hope the IP from Creative's corpse falls into far more capable hands.

[l33t-g4m3r]

lol.
It's everywhere, tshirts, numerous blogs, forums, and websites, and even wikipedia.
maybe now creative will get the message about providing decent driver support.

[NeXus 6]

Newegg had this to say:

Newegg's Response

Not good.

[morphine]

To wit, we have processed nearly 5,000 return orders within the past 48 hours. While it is not normally in our best interest to publically comment in a manufacturer's forum, the overwhelming concensus has left us little choice. As such, effective tommorow morning newegg.com will suspend sales of the sound cards in question, particularly those indicated as "Vista compatible", pending an investigation into the matter.

Oooof, kick in the groin! When even your retailers get riled up, you're biting the hand that feeds you...

[willyolio]

Newegg had this to say:

Newegg's Response

Not good.

can't really be sure if that's actually newegg, or just some guy posing as a newegg employee. the links he provides are just generic links to newegg's site. and what's with that "E:/ support@newegg.com"?

that said, though, i say let creative burn. thank goodness Asus has a high-end soundcard, with a cheaper version coming, which will actually have drivers.

[morphine]

Well we'll see in the meanwhile if it's fake or not, pending the X-Fi cards actually vanishing from their online store. If it's fake, too bad... it's not like they weren't asking for it. I for one think this is merely the straw that broke the camel's back. They had a virtual monopoly for too many years now. I personally was "blessed" with the fact that I never really had any big trouble with their cards, but I still got bitten by all the small niggles and artificial limitations.