High-End Computer Speakers

The place to sound off on all things related to audio, from sound cards to speakers.

Moderator: Captain Ned

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:23 pm

just brew it! wrote:This is a symptom of massive peaks, dips, and resonances in the frequency response curve at the low end. Fairly typical of inexpensive 2.1s, which are designed to produce lots of bass but sacrifice accuracy in the process.

Because most of the woofers (I refuse to call them subs) are reflex-loaded for efficiency (watts per dB) purposes. You can make reflex systems sound good, but not at the mfg cost of cheap 2.1s.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20254
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:13 am

Captain Ned wrote:Because most of the woofers (I refuse to call them subs) are reflex-loaded for efficiency (watts per dB) purposes. You can make reflex systems sound good, but not at the mfg cost of cheap 2.1s.


Makes sense I guess.
Is this thread with its ~$200 budget even close to the realm of 2.1's that don't have this nasty reflex-loaded bass muddiness?

I found my (rather expensive at the time) ProMedia's just as bad as other cheaper 2.1's; They were loud and bassy with crisp, clean treble - but they still made a lot of my rock and almost all of my live performance recording sound horrible compared to the (cheap) dedicated amp and floorstanders I had at the time. Things only got worse as we moved from CD's to lossy MP3's.....
<insert large, flashing, epileptic-fit-inducing signature (based on the latest internet-meme) here>
Chrispy_
Gerbil Jedi
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 1879
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:18 am

You can always make your own. Not that hard really! Lots of plans out there and something I loved to do as a kid/young adult. Only problem is once I had them up and running, I neglected appearance and would skip the veneer/finishing stage. Nothing like a pair of particle board speakers!
liquidsquid
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2447
Joined: Wed May 29, 2002 10:49 am
Location: New York

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:30 am

I've pretty much given up on speakers for my PC.

I had an old set of Bose (yes, they are as bad as everyone says) set up in a 5.1 hooked up to a receiver through analog 5.1 ports. I use a Creative X-Fi card, which does the job and is low noise.

Problem was that my receiver died and they do not make receivers with 5.1 analog inputs anymore, so I had to switch to optical with my new Denon receiver.

That's all well and good, but the Creative card does not do real 5.1 through the optical cable. All it does is an upmix of the stereo signal. The only time it will do 5.1 is if it receives a Dolby Digital or DTS signal, and very few games do this. I don't know why Creative does this, since my old nForce based motherboard years ago could take any 5.1 signal and decode it correctly through optical, but that's the way Creative does it. So, it's either look for a sound card that does 5.1 through optical or find an old receiver that still has analog 5.1. The only self powered halfway decent 5.1 speakers out there are the Logitechs.

In the mean time, I've purchased a headset that does virtual 7.1 for gaming and listen to music through a nice set of Sennheisers.
Thresher
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:36 am

For a long time I've wanted to try a Clark Synthesis Tactile Transducer but installation difficulty/incompetence and/or laziness has stopped me from purchasing one. Only $84.25 for the cheapest one too.
rephlex
Gerbil
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:48 am

Thresher wrote:I don't know why Creative does this, since my old nForce based motherboard years ago could take any 5.1 signal and decode it correctly through optical, but that's the way Creative does it.

You need any soundcard/chipset that has either Dolby Digital Live or DTS-Connect support, preferably the latter. This is usually only an option in slighly more expensive motherboards/cards because of licensing fees.
There is a fixed amount of intelligence on the planet, and the population keeps growing :(
morphine
Gerbil Khan
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 9979
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:51 pm
Location: Portugal (that's next to Spain)

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:15 am

Kurotetsu wrote:
GeForce6200 wrote:
Kurotetsu wrote:Another alternative to PC speakers and powered monitors is a T-Amp and passives. This combination is fairly popular and budget-oriented:

Dayton Audio B652 6-1/2" 2-Way Bookshelf Speakers
Lepai LP-2020A+ Tripath Class-T Hi-Fi Audio Mini Amplifier

This setup makes it easy to upgrade the speakers and/or amp later on, or throw in a subwoofer.

While a decent setup, the Lepai can't ouput clean audio at any respectable levels, which is why in my previous post I recommended the Dayton DTA 100a or the Dayton APA 150 The speakers linked would work, but if budget allowed it may be wise to upgrade Sony or even used higher tier bookshelf speakers.


I agree. Though I recommend the Lepai just because its so cheap, which makes it easier to convince people to move to a t-amp + passive setup. I have seen people recommend getting a better power supply for the Lepai to fix some of its issues.

About the Dayton DTA 100a, last I checked on that it was suffering from some balance and QA issues? I'm not sure if thats still the case nowadays.

I, personally, have heard alot of good things about Topping amps.


You have my attention. For $30 for speakers and $25 for an amp, The price is right. Are there any other amps in that price range that are cleaner? Does it matter that the amp only goes to 20 W per channel when the speakers pull 40W each?
Sheep Rustlers in the sky! <S> Slapt | <S> FUI | Air Warrior II/III
FireGryphon
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7342
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:53 pm
Location: the abyss into which you gaze

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:29 am

morphine wrote:
Thresher wrote:I don't know why Creative does this, since my old nForce based motherboard years ago could take any 5.1 signal and decode it correctly through optical, but that's the way Creative does it.

You need any soundcard/chipset that has either Dolby Digital Live or DTS-Connect support, preferably the latter. This is usually only an option in slighly more expensive motherboards/cards because of licensing fees.



Any recommendations? The X-Fi has DTS connect support, but again, only works with DTS encoded material.
Thresher
Gerbil Jedi
 
Posts: 1605
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:31 am

FireGryphon wrote:You have my attention. For $30 for speakers and $25 for an amp, The price is right. Are there any other amps in that price range that are cleaner? Does it matter that the amp only goes to 20 W per channel when the speakers pull 40W each?

Speakers don't "pull" 40W. The 40W RMS rating is how much power you can push through them continuously without damaging them. However, if you like to listen with the volume cranked up, then yeah you probably want something that can put out more power; routinely driving the amp into clipping can actually damage the speakers (tends to over-heat the tweeters)!
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:34 am

just brew it! wrote:
FireGryphon wrote:You have my attention. For $30 for speakers and $25 for an amp, The price is right. Are there any other amps in that price range that are cleaner? Does it matter that the amp only goes to 20 W per channel when the speakers pull 40W each?

Speakers don't "pull" 40W. The 40W RMS rating is how much power you can push through them continuously without damaging them. However, if you like to listen with the volume cranked up, then yeah you probably want something that can put out more power; routinely driving the amp into clipping can actually damage the speakers!


Is there a way to calculate how much wattage is running through your speakers at a given volume?
Sheep Rustlers in the sky! <S> Slapt | <S> FUI | Air Warrior II/III
FireGryphon
Darth Gerbil
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 7342
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:53 pm
Location: the abyss into which you gaze

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:41 am

FireGryphon wrote:Is there a way to calculate how much wattage is running through your speakers at a given volume?

Unless you've got an amp with meters on the outputs or specialized test equipment, not easily.

But 20W RMS through a speaker with any sort of reasonable efficiency is gonna be pretty freakin' loud unless you're sitting a fair distance away.
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:46 am

FireGryphon wrote:You have my attention. For $30 for speakers and $25 for an amp, The price is right. Are there any other amps in that price range that are cleaner? Does it matter that the amp only goes to 20 W per channel when the speakers pull 40W each?

Those are maximum power conditions, not typical operating conditions. For casual listening the average power is usually in the range of 0.5-2W or so, and the maximum power will only be drawn at bass peaks. These speakers are rated 87dB/W-m, which means at a distance of 1m, the speakers will output 87dB for 1W of electrical power input. At 16W the 1m power will be 99dB, which is generally sufficient since that will also be your typical listening distance.

Note that the amplifier's power supply is 12VDC at 2.0A. Even assuming a relatively high 95% efficiency for the Class D topology, the maximum continuous output power shared between both channels is actually 22-23W. The 20W/channel figure is the maximum short-term power for one saturated channel only.
He who laughs last, laughs first next time.
ludi
Gerbil Elder
 
Posts: 5439
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:47 pm
Location: Sunny Colorado front range

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:09 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
Kurotetsu wrote:
GeForce6200 wrote:While a decent setup, the Lepai can't ouput clean audio at any respectable levels, which is why in my previous post I recommended the Dayton DTA 100a or the Dayton APA 150 The speakers linked would work, but if budget allowed it may be wise to upgrade Sony or even used higher tier bookshelf speakers.


I agree. Though I recommend the Lepai just because its so cheap, which makes it easier to convince people to move to a t-amp + passive setup. I have seen people recommend getting a better power supply for the Lepai to fix some of its issues.

About the Dayton DTA 100a, last I checked on that it was suffering from some balance and QA issues? I'm not sure if thats still the case nowadays.

I, personally, have heard alot of good things about Topping amps.


You have my attention. For $30 for speakers and $25 for an amp, The price is right. Are there any other amps in that price range that are cleaner? Does it matter that the amp only goes to 20 W per channel when the speakers pull 40W each?


Dayton Audio DTA-1 might be a good choice at $45. Its a less powerful version of the DTA-100a that a few posters recommended on page 1 (the DTA-1 is 15 watts per channel while the DTA-100a is 50 watts per channel). I used this amp back when it was made by Sonic Impact and it was very nice. Plenty powerful for near field listening (I used it with a pair of Polk Monitor 30s), so don't let the 15 WPC fool you.
Under Construction Forever~~~
Kurotetsu
Gerbil Elite
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:13 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:12 pm

FireGryphon wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
FireGryphon wrote:You have my attention. For $30 for speakers and $25 for an amp, The price is right. Are there any other amps in that price range that are cleaner? Does it matter that the amp only goes to 20 W per channel when the speakers pull 40W each?

Speakers don't "pull" 40W. The 40W RMS rating is how much power you can push through them continuously without damaging them. However, if you like to listen with the volume cranked up, then yeah you probably want something that can put out more power; routinely driving the amp into clipping can actually damage the speakers!


Is there a way to calculate how much wattage is running through your speakers at a given volume?


Why would you want to do this? There is just one simple rule for avoiding damage: if it sounds distorted, turn it down. This rule works for protecting both amplifier and speakers.
rephlex
Gerbil
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:22 pm

Kurotetsu wrote:Dayton Audio DTA-1 might be a good choice at $45. Its a less powerful version of the DTA-100a that a few posters recommended on page 1 (the DTA-1 is 15 watts per channel while the DTA-100a is 50 watts per channel). I used this amp back when it was made by Sonic Impact and it was very nice. Plenty powerful for near field listening (I used it with a pair of Polk Monitor 30s), so don't let the 15 WPC fool you.


Although the Dayton Audio DTA-100a is rated at 50 WPC that figure is only achieved with a large amount of distortion, 10% THD I believe. 30 WPC is a much more realistic amount of output power achievable with the DTA-100a.
rephlex
Gerbil
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:28 pm

morphine wrote:While we're on this topic, are there any 5.1 and/or 75-100W version of these "T-Amps"? Because currently I'm using an old Sony receiver + bookshelf speakers, but the receiver is huge, and there really aren't many small ones. This leads me to think that I'd be much better off with a much simpler "5.1 amplifier and little else" device, if such a thing existed...


I'm pretty sure no one makes a 75W (into 8 ohms) T-amp, or a multichannel one. One company, Virtue Audio, came close. They're a small American company that do mostly internet direct sales. They started selling their own T-amp designs about 4-5 years ago. With upgraded power supplies, their amps would push over 40W per channel into 8 ohms and close to 90 watts per channel into 4 ohms. I think most big brands rate their power output at 6 ohms these days - which would peg the Virtue amps at around 60 watts per channel at max output. They use a dual mono-bridge design, with proprietary cooling for the dual T-amp chips - basically heat sinks with heat pipes that are connected to the aluminum enclosures (sort of like those new small form factor aluminum HTPC cases that have processor heat sinks with heat pipes connected to the walls of the case).

The Virtue Audio amps, however, weren't cheap, starting at around $300-$350, with their flagship models coming in around as much as $900. They are currently in the middle of a product line overhaul/redesign and are not selling any amps at the moment. The new models, at least some, are purportedly designed to deliver more power, but no firm details yet.

I own Virtue amps and they are really quite something. You get the smooth yet articulate T-amp sound with hardly any of the power output compromises. Output with a decent power supply is plenty for all but the most demanding speakers unless you are trying to fill up a very large room or listen at 100 decibels or more.
cynan
Gerbil Elite
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:30 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:11 pm

rephlex wrote:
Kurotetsu wrote:Dayton Audio DTA-1 might be a good choice at $45. Its a less powerful version of the DTA-100a that a few posters recommended on page 1 (the DTA-1 is 15 watts per channel while the DTA-100a is 50 watts per channel). I used this amp back when it was made by Sonic Impact and it was very nice. Plenty powerful for near field listening (I used it with a pair of Polk Monitor 30s), so don't let the 15 WPC fool you.


Although the Dayton Audio DTA-100a is rated at 50 WPC that figure is only achieved with a large amount of distortion, 10% THD I believe. 30 WPC is a much more realistic amount of output power achievable with the DTA-100a.



I'm a bit skeptical that the DTA-100a really delivers 50W per channel RMS into 8 ohms. Ie, the Virtue amps were only able to push a bit more power than other T-amps because of their ability to use 30V switching power supplies or high current linear or battery supplies running close to 30V (due to it's beefier cooling than most T-amps). But then, I don't know what sort of cooling the DTA-100a uses. Either way, you absolutely will not getthe advertised 50 watts/channel with the included 24V power supply. I would think in reality, the DTA-100a with the 24V PSU, would be doing closer to 30 watts per channel. Still, should give good performance for the money. I'd be tempted to try one if I didn't already have a desktop T-amp.
cynan
Gerbil Elite
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:30 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:22 pm

Thresher wrote:Any recommendations? The X-Fi has DTS connect support, but again, only works with DTS encoded material.

What's the exact model? Because having "DTS Connect" implies 5.1 from any source. Doing a pass-through of pre-encoded material is something that any soundcard with a digital output can do.
There is a fixed amount of intelligence on the planet, and the population keeps growing :(
morphine
Gerbil Khan
Silver subscriber
 
 
Posts: 9979
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:51 pm
Location: Portugal (that's next to Spain)

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:45 pm

cynan wrote:
rephlex wrote:
Kurotetsu wrote:Dayton Audio DTA-1 might be a good choice at $45. Its a less powerful version of the DTA-100a that a few posters recommended on page 1 (the DTA-1 is 15 watts per channel while the DTA-100a is 50 watts per channel). I used this amp back when it was made by Sonic Impact and it was very nice. Plenty powerful for near field listening (I used it with a pair of Polk Monitor 30s), so don't let the 15 WPC fool you.

Although the Dayton Audio DTA-100a is rated at 50 WPC that figure is only achieved with a large amount of distortion, 10% THD I believe. 30 WPC is a much more realistic amount of output power achievable with the DTA-100a.

I'm a bit skeptical that the DTA-100a really delivers 50W per channel RMS into 8 ohms.


It would come close, even with the included 24 volt 5 amp power supply. The datasheet says the TK2050 is capable of outputting 45 watts per channel at 10% THD with a 23.5 volt supply, 60 watts per channel at 10% THD with a 30 volt supply. When driving 8 ohm speakers it is 92% efficient, efficiency decreases as speaker impedance drops. Doing the maths gives me 47.87 watts per channel at 10% THD with 8 ohm speakers when powered by a 24 volt supply. With the amplifier operating at 92% efficiency that would require 5.1 amps of current from a 24 volt supply.
rephlex
Gerbil
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:53 pm

rephlex wrote:
cynan wrote:I'm a bit skeptical that the DTA-100a really delivers 50W per channel RMS into 8 ohms.

It would come close, even with the included 24 volt 5 amp power supply. The datasheet says the TK2050 is capable of outputting 45 watts at 10% THD with a 23.5 volt supply, 60 watts at 10% THD with a 30 volt supply. When driving 8 ohm speakers it is 92% efficient, efficiency decreases as speaker impedance drops. Doing the maths gives me 47.87 watts per channel at 10% THD with 8 ohm speakers when powered by a 24 volt supply. With the amplifier operating at 92% efficiency that would require 5.1 amps of current from a 24 volt supply.

Realistically speaking I think cynan's analysis is more reasonable though. Driving it into heavy clipping -- and if you've got 10% THD it is clipping like nobody's business! -- is a bit of a cheat, since the RMS value of a squarewave is 100% of its peak value (instead of only 70%), and this artificially inflates the power numbers. A lot of that additional power (above and beyond what cynan is estimating) is in the form of distortion!
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:22 pm

More bluntly, 10% THD is so bad that it will sound like there's radio static in the signal, and the tweeters will very soon be dead. Any manufacturer even bothering to quote power at a THD figure at or above 1% is doing so purely for marketing purposes.
He who laughs last, laughs first next time.
ludi
Gerbil Elder
 
Posts: 5439
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:47 pm
Location: Sunny Colorado front range

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:55 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:Most 2.1 systems murder bass guitars; I can't quite explain how but the details just get drunkenly slurred together and the volume is inconsistent - all over the place.

This is a symptom of massive peaks, dips, and resonances in the frequency response curve at the low end. Fairly typical of inexpensive 2.1s, which are designed to produce lots of bass but sacrifice accuracy in the process.

fairly typical as well for 2.0's, although somewhat less pronounced in my experience as the peaks are not as high and there's no disconnect between the mids and the lows
Firestarter
Gerbil XP
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:12 am

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:20 pm

ludi wrote:More bluntly, 10% THD is so bad that it will sound like there's radio static in the signal, and the tweeters will very soon be dead.


This is a common misconception. 10% THD may or may not be objectionable, it may not even be audible at all. Simply put, by itself THD is essentially useless as a measure of perceived sound quality. See this classic Bob Carver article: http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforu ... sts&t=4481
rephlex
Gerbil
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:39 pm

rephlex wrote:
ludi wrote:More bluntly, 10% THD is so bad that it will sound like there's radio static in the signal, and the tweeters will very soon be dead.

This is a common misconception. 10% THD may or may not be objectionable, it may not even be audible at all. Simply put, by itself THD is essentially useless as a measure of perceived sound quality. See this classic Bob Carver article: http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforu ... sts&t=4481

...and then there's the issue that the linked article deals purely with crossover distortion, which is not the same thing as clipping distortion. I have no idea whether crossover distortion is more or less objectionable than clipping from a perception standpoint; but I imagine the relative amplitudes of the different harmonics generated are at least *different*.
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:41 pm

rephlex wrote:
ludi wrote:More bluntly, 10% THD is so bad that it will sound like there's radio static in the signal, and the tweeters will very soon be dead.

This is a common misconception. 10% THD may or may not be objectionable, it may not even be audible at all. Simply put, by itself THD is essentially useless as a measure of perceived sound quality. See this classic Bob Carver article: http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforu ... sts&t=4481

Maybe with tube amps, which distort in even-order harmonics and sound natural doing so. It's why Carver spent so much time working on his "transfer function" to make a solid-state amp sound like a tube amp. Transistors distort in odd-order harmonics, which are naturally dissonant and nasty-sounding. It's why guitarists still know terms like 6L6, EL34, 6DJ8, 12AX7, KT77 (good luck finding a real English NOS unit), and KT88. There was even once an ASUS mobo with a tube amp circuit for the audio out.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20254
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:06 pm

Captain Ned wrote:There was even once an ASUS mobo with a tube amp circuit for the audio out.

..and if ever there was a business case for modular motherboards 'twould be this... :oops:
"No I don't want the Ask toolbar! No I don't want Bing as my default search! No I don't want to make Chrome my default browser!"
"Good grief, man! WHAT are you trying to install on that poor computer?"
"Antivirus."
kvndoom
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
 
Posts: 2397
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Communistwealth of Virginia

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:08 pm

just brew it! wrote:
rephlex wrote:
ludi wrote:More bluntly, 10% THD is so bad that it will sound like there's radio static in the signal, and the tweeters will very soon be dead.

This is a common misconception. 10% THD may or may not be objectionable, it may not even be audible at all. Simply put, by itself THD is essentially useless as a measure of perceived sound quality. See this classic Bob Carver article: http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforu ... sts&t=4481

...and then there's the issue that the linked article deals purely with crossover distortion, which is not the same thing as clipping distortion.


Read it again, the article I linked to certainly mentions harmonic distortion.
rephlex
Gerbil
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:46 pm

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:39 pm

Christ, I lived the original Carver controversy back when he first claimed he could make his amp sound exactly like anyone else's amp. Not going there again as it took years and cost millions of lives (of magazine subscribers who had nothing else to read but the controversy). Carver should have joined the Peace Corps instead of pissing seven years of amplifier research down the drain.
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20254
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:49 pm

kvndoom wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:There was even once an ASUS mobo with a tube amp circuit for the audio out.
..and if ever there was a business case for modular motherboards 'twould be this... :oops:

My bad, it was an AOpen. Too many mobo companies starting in "A" back then (2002).

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardw ... nax4btube/

From the Home Team:

http://techreport.com/news/3670/aopen-t ... bular-mobo
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Captain Ned
Global Moderator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 20254
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: High-End Computer Speakers

Postposted on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:02 pm

rephlex wrote:
just brew it! wrote:...and then there's the issue that the linked article deals purely with crossover distortion, which is not the same thing as clipping distortion.

Read it again, the article I linked to certainly mentions harmonic distortion.

For their tests they created harmonic distortion by using a specially modified amp that intentionally introduces crossover distortion. Crossover distortion is a form of harmonic distortion (as is clipping). But unless the spectrum of harmonics produced by crossover distortion is identical to that produced by clipping (I don't know for certain whether it is or isn't, but since the underlying mechanism is different it would be unwise to just assume they are the same), it could very well be an apples-to-oranges comparison. As Cap'n Ned has pointed out, the particular spectrum of harmonics produced by harmonic distortion has a significant effect on how the distortion is perceived.

All harmonic distortion is not created equal. It's a catch-all phrase for any distortion that introduces unwanted signals (harmonics) at integer multiples of the desired frequency. The relative strengths of the different harmonics (at different multiples of the original frequency) has a significant effect on how the distortion is perceived by the human ear.

Edit: Crossover vs. clipping may produce different amounts and/or types of intermodulation distortion as a side effect as well (again, I don't know for sure one way or the other). But since they tested with multiple tones mixed together (so IM distortion would've definitely been part of the mix), this is yet another potential variable that wasn't controlled for in their listening test.
(this space intentionally left blank)
just brew it!
Administrator
Gold subscriber
 
 
Posts: 37705
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

PreviousNext

Return to Echo Vale

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest