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HiggsBoson
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:45 am

Snapper wrote:
One thing that hasn't been said is the ability to correct wavy barrel distortion. Photoshop can pretty easily correct barrel distortion that has a uniform curve. It is pretty much impossible to correct barrel distortion that has a wavy edge with good results. The wavy type is more commonly found in inexpensive lenses, such as cheap SLR lenses and prosumer camera lenses. I am not aware of any other inexpensive programs that do this, but if Photoshop is required to correct the distortion, then the cost savings is certainly decreased if not completely lost.

Well don't have anything to say about the wavy distortion bit, I'll just have to take your word for it. However as far as cost goes, some googling shows that panotools is a free, kind of, toolset. There are some free front-end tools that work with it directly as well as some purchasable front-ends. Also there is a Photoshop compatible plug-in so if you happen to own any software that is compatible with them it can take advantage of panotools. There's a GIMP plug in as well I think, didn't explore that one too far. Alternatively one could argue that if you have any intention of doing anything in digital photography you should at the minimum invest in a copy of Photoshop Elements (and a good monitor calibration tool). Plus I'm not sure about the cost savings aspect as the cost of T/S lenses seem to be about ~1000 USD each in the 35mm format, from a reputable vendor, at least for Canon. If you have a need for a couple of these, but you can replicate their effect on the PC then I think you're doing pretty well on the cost savings side.
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Snapper
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:00 am

LJ wrote:
And yet there is nothing inherant to SLRs that has anything to do with how large the buffers are, how many shots per second they can take (in fact, SRLs are arguably more limited than straight digital cameras because they have to snap up a mirror), or how long battery life is (except the fact that using the digital viewfinder consumes a lot of batteries). The only reason you're getting a larger buffer and can shoot more shots per second is because you're willing to spend more money on a camera and you're most likely more serious about photography. The fact that the camera isn't an SLR limits neither its battery capacity nor buffer size.


I never disagreed with your statement that a SLR is only better because manufacturers choose to make them better.

Actually, many DSLRs also have CCD sensors, so that isn't the real reason. The biggest reason is the batteries that are used in prosumer cameras versus the ones that are used in most DSLRs. I can take anywhere from 600-1000 pictures with my D100, and I have yet to see a prosumer camera that is capable of that.

Yes, they have CCD or CMOS sensors, but the *reason* the digital viewfinder takes so much juice is because it (obviously) must run the CCD in order to show you the frame on the LCD (before you snap the shot -- when you're framing). Actually snapping the shot consumes less power than framing it if you're using a digital viewfinder.


Once again, I am not sure why you feel the need to point this out, since I never said that wasn't a factor. I think it is obvious that if a person uses something more that consumes battery power, they will get less usage from the device.

600-1000 shots? Spend $200 on an A75 and you'll find that you can take 1200 shots on set of double A batteries if you disable the digital viewfinder.


What exactly do you mean by disabling the viewfinder, not using it at all, only for review? If I disable the feature to automatically display the image after I take it, then I can get 1200 shots too. Obviously all of this depends on how much the on camera flash is used too. I doubt anyone would get 1200 shots on an A75 or any camera for that matter if the on-camera flash is used 75% of the time.

Extension tubes or macro lenses are also good ways to get closer to a subject than a lens might allow, which is another advantage for a SLR.

You can actually get both, afaik, for non SLR digital cameras (one of my friends has a G5 with a macro-lens adaptor -- in fact, a guy considered one of the best insect macro photographers in the world uses a Canon G3).


Actually, what exists for prosumer digitals is magnification filters, and they come in varying degrees of strength. That is also the cheap way to increase magnification on a SLR as well, or even increasing the magnification on a dedicated macro to go beyond 1:1. An extension tube sits between the lens and the camera, so obviously there is no way to use one for a prosumer digital. There are obvious advantages to using a dedicated macro lens on an SLR over a prosumer digital with magnification filters. The more filters you add, the more the image degrades and the less light that is let through to the camera. I don't know of a prosumer camera that will do 1:1 macro, or that has a 2.8 aperature at any of the focal lengths typically used for macro. Of course the disadvantage to all of this is cost, since a good dedicated Macro lens will cost at least $300-400 in addition to the $900-8000 spent on the camera. After all, that is really the topic of discussion here, advantages and disadvantages of SLRs and prosumer digitals.

http://www.pbase.com/image/11392355[/quote]
 
Snapper
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Re: Prosumer vs SLR

Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:06 am

HiggsBoson wrote:
Snapper wrote:
It gets you greater sharpness with all but the cheapest SLR lenses.

Well I'm not going to argue that the sharpness of a good quality zoom (which can cost as much or more as a whole Prosumer digicam) or a good quality prime is not sharper. I will say though that when you get down at the Prosumer price point with some of the better models with better zooms---you're talking about a much higher price in $$$ and weight to get glass that equals the "adequate" sharpness and clarity of the good Prosumer digicams. These are two definite advantages.

And an SLR gets you more flexibility. There are just many many more accessories that can be had for an SLR that just are not available for a prosumer camera that will allow for very unique and specific shooting situations.

To be fair though there are some camera manufacturers with fairly well rounded systems for their digicams, from add-on lenses and accesories, to flashes.

What I am saying is that given the same conditions, the SLR will always give better results.

Perhaps... but the question is at what cost relative to the digicam, and is the "better" worth the extra $$$, weight, etc.


I agree with everything you said Higgs, which is why I said that the prosumer digital is the better choice if you don't need anything that I mentioned and you want to save money and weight.
 
Snapper
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:13 am

HiggsBoson wrote:
Snapper wrote:
One thing that hasn't been said is the ability to correct wavy barrel distortion. Photoshop can pretty easily correct barrel distortion that has a uniform curve. It is pretty much impossible to correct barrel distortion that has a wavy edge with good results. The wavy type is more commonly found in inexpensive lenses, such as cheap SLR lenses and prosumer camera lenses. I am not aware of any other inexpensive programs that do this, but if Photoshop is required to correct the distortion, then the cost savings is certainly decreased if not completely lost.

Well don't have anything to say about the wavy distortion bit, I'll just have to take your word for it. However as far as cost goes, some googling shows that panotools is a free, kind of, toolset. There are some free front-end tools that work with it directly as well as some purchasable front-ends. Also there is a Photoshop compatible plug-in so if you happen to own any software that is compatible with them it can take advantage of panotools. There's a GIMP plug in as well I think, didn't explore that one too far. Alternatively one could argue that if you have any intention of doing anything in digital photography you should at the minimum invest in a copy of Photoshop Elements (and a good monitor calibration tool). Plus I'm not sure about the cost savings aspect as the cost of T/S lenses seem to be about ~1000 USD each in the 35mm format, from a reputable vendor, at least for Canon. If you have a need for a couple of these, but you can replicate their effect on the PC then I think you're doing pretty well on the cost savings side.


I completely agree, there are prosumer digitals on the market that have consistent barrel distortion which is easily correctable. If you can get free tools to correct it, then the prosumer digital is definately a good cost saving alternative in this area. Wide angle converters can even be had to get even closer to some of the wide angle focal lengths. I would think at least 20mm (35mm equivalent) could be achieved with the right camera. Which isn't too bad compared to the widest obtainable focal length of 14mm by a 35mm SLR.
 
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:08 am

HiggsBoson wrote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...


The point I was trying to get across is what's the sense of learning anything about photography if you can do all of your fixes/adjustments to your photo with software. Personally I like to know that I can achieve the effect/look of a photo without having to use PS or any other software. If you want to learn about it, then try it without the help of software. And remember I am talking about 35mm camera pics......not ones taken with a digital camera.
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HiggsBoson
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:22 pm

Snapper wrote:
600-1000 shots? Spend $200 on an A75 and you'll find that you can take 1200 shots on set of double A batteries if you disable the digital viewfinder.


What exactly do you mean by disabling the viewfinder, not using it at all, only for review? If I disable the feature to automatically display the image after I take it, then I can get 1200 shots too. Obviously all of this depends on how much the on camera flash is used too. I doubt anyone would get 1200 shots on an A75 or any camera for that matter if the on-camera flash is used 75% of the time.

Disabling the viewfinder means using the optical finder to frame and take the picture. You can turn off the review (for a bit more speed between shots) or you can turn off just the display all together (which is more battery life too of course). The LCD on the back is the main viewfinder as well as the display for review. It's not *just* the LCD though---I'm not sure you get what I/we mean when we say that the actual sensor is quite different between P&S/Prosumer and dSLR.

I don't know of a prosumer camera that will do 1:1 macro, or that has a 2.8 aperature at any of the focal lengths typically used for macro.

Well just FYI there's the Panasonic Lumix that does 35-420mm equiv. at constant 2.8. Although the macro on that camera isn't thing to write home about from what I've read. There are also Sony's F717 (F2.0-2.4//38-190mm) and F828 (F2.0-2.8//28-200mm). Again neither or those has any macro to write home about, I believe. Canon has had a very nice F2.0-3.0//35-140mm lens on their G3 and 5 for while now. The Pro1 now does F2.4-3.5//28-200mm. And Olympus' C-8080WZ does F2.4-3.5//28-140mm. Olympus' older C-5050 actually does F1.8-2.6//35-105mm which is still (embarrassingly IMO) the fastest lens you can reasonably get in a P&S/Prosumer.
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Snapper
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:02 pm

HiggsBoson wrote:
Snapper wrote:
600-1000 shots? Spend $200 on an A75 and you'll find that you can take 1200 shots on set of double A batteries if you disable the digital viewfinder.


What exactly do you mean by disabling the viewfinder, not using it at all, only for review? If I disable the feature to automatically display the image after I take it, then I can get 1200 shots too. Obviously all of this depends on how much the on camera flash is used too. I doubt anyone would get 1200 shots on an A75 or any camera for that matter if the on-camera flash is used 75% of the time.

Disabling the viewfinder means using the optical finder to frame and take the picture. You can turn off the review (for a bit more speed between shots) or you can turn off just the display all together (which is more battery life too of course). The LCD on the back is the main viewfinder as well as the display for review. It's not *just* the LCD though---I'm not sure you get what I/we mean when we say that the actual sensor is quite different between P&S/Prosumer and dSLR.


I completely understand the differences between a prosumer sensor and a DSLR sensor, including the differences between CCD, CMOS and all the flavorings of each. What I was getting at is what his definition of disabling the LCD. Not all people see it the same way. Was he saying that he didn't use the LCD at all, or just not for framing pictures, as in just for review purposes.

I don't know of a prosumer camera that will do 1:1 macro, or that has a 2.8 aperature at any of the focal lengths typically used for macro.

Well just FYI there's the Panasonic Lumix that does 35-420mm equiv. at constant 2.8. Although the macro on that camera isn't thing to write home about from what I've read. There are also Sony's F717 (F2.0-2.4//38-190mm) and F828 (F2.0-2.8//28-200mm). Again neither or those has any macro to write home about, I believe. Canon has had a very nice F2.0-3.0//35-140mm lens on their G3 and 5 for while now. The Pro1 now does F2.4-3.5//28-200mm. And Olympus' C-8080WZ does F2.4-3.5//28-140mm. Olympus' older C-5050 actually does F1.8-2.6//35-105mm which is still (embarrassingly IMO) the fastest lens you can reasonably get in a P&S/Prosumer.


Yes, but all those cameras have significantly smaller sensors, and F2 on the G3 really isn't the same as F2 on a D1s. The diameter is the same, but the amount of light the sensor is catching isn't the same. Not only that, but the depth of field achieved isn't the same either. Perhaps I should have worded my thoughts differently.[/code]
 
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:54 pm

I completely understand the differences between a prosumer sensor and a DSLR sensor, including the differences between CCD, CMOS and all the flavorings of each. What I was getting at is what his definition of disabling the LCD. Not all people see it the same way. Was he saying that he didn't use the LCD at all, or just not for framing pictures, as in just for review purposes.

Think of a digital camera using a digital viewfinder. Now, you know that the sensor uses the bulk of the battery power, right? How exactly does the live display work? It uses the sensor -- that's just like taking pictures except that you're looking at it for 20-30 seconds sometimes before a shot (which consumes a lot more power than simply capturing a picture. The act of framing a shot, if you are using the digital viewfinder, consumes more power than shooting the shot or any of the other camera functions (such as metering). The fact that the sensor is 'working' the entire time that you are framing the shot is the issue here.
aperature

aperture

This discussion may be getting confusing to people who are new to photography because a lot of the information going around really has nothing to do with SLR and everything to do with price point. Buffers, battery life, autofocus speed, shutter lag, et cetera are not restricted because the camera is not SLR. The advantages of SLR don't have to be numerous if you simply cannot do with a prosumer camera what you can do with an SLR.

And in my mind, the primary advantage of an SLR is the fact that you see the frame exactly when you're capturing it. The frame is life size rather than 2", so you get a far better feel for it and it is almost as if you're part of the picture rather than just holding a device in front of you looking at a tiny screen. You can apply filters and see how they affect the scene (something LCDs represent poorly), and you can buy high quality interchangable lenses (in theory, this could be done with prosumer cameras but what would be the point?)
 
Captain Ned
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:39 pm

I've got a fair pile of cash invested in several Nikon non-AF lenses which see frequent use on my Nikon N2000. When someone can find me a way to use these on a digital body (that doesn't cost multi-kilobucks) I just might bite on digital. Until then, I'm a film guy (lusting after a Nikon FA body for a good price).
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HiggsBoson
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:48 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
I've got a fair pile of cash invested in several Nikon non-AF lenses which see frequent use on my Nikon N2000. When someone can find me a way to use these on a digital body (that doesn't cost multi-kilobucks) I just might bite on digital. Until then, I'm a film guy (lusting after a Nikon FA body for a good price).

Have you seen a D70 or a D100?
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HiggsBoson
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:06 pm

Snapper wrote:
Yes, but all those cameras have significantly smaller sensors, and F2 on the G3 really isn't the same as F2 on a D1s. The diameter is the same, but the amount of light the sensor is catching isn't the same. Not only that, but the depth of field achieved isn't the same either. Perhaps I should have worded my thoughts differently.[/code]

Well yeah if you were trying to say that you can't get the same shallow depth-of-field on a Prosumer/P&S as you can on a (d)SLR then yeah that's totally true. On the other hand that's a matter of what kind of shooting you're doing. Sometimes you want the extra DOF.

Well, at least we agree that the aperature is saying the same thing "the diameter is the same." If something meters at 1/125 @ F2 on a P&S and then it should meter at 1/125 @ F2 on any other camera at the same ISO equiv. I guess you mean that a smaller sensor means a smaller absolute amount of light to get the same level of exposure. That might be true but with the smaller sensor size you only need a smaller absolute amount of light needed to get the same level of exposure. How much light is needed in both cases is indicated by the metered exposure. If it's the same it should be the same.
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:40 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
I've got a fair pile of cash invested in several Nikon non-AF lenses which see frequent use on my Nikon N2000. When someone can find me a way to use these on a digital body (that doesn't cost multi-kilobucks) I just might bite on digital. Until then, I'm a film guy (lusting after a Nikon FA body for a good price).


Have you seen a D70 or a D100?
The non CPU lenses dont meter correctly on the cheaper Nikon DSLR cameras. Most require the D1x or D2h and some doesnt meter at the D1x either. There is probably a list somwhere over what does what. Some lenses can be chipped so theyll meter, but thats a $90 or so.

Of course you can probably use them fine in manual mode if you use the sunny 16 or have a separate lightmeter.
 
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:49 pm

Aphasia wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
I've got a fair pile of cash invested in several Nikon non-AF lenses which see frequent use on my Nikon N2000. When someone can find me a way to use these on a digital body (that doesn't cost multi-kilobucks) I just might bite on digital. Until then, I'm a film guy (lusting after a Nikon FA body for a good price).


Have you seen a D70 or a D100?
The non CPU lenses dont meter correctly on the cheaper Nikon DSLR cameras. Most require the D1x or D2h and some doesnt meter at the D1x either. There is probably a list somwhere over what does what. Some lenses can be chipped so theyll meter, but thats a $90 or so.

Of course you can probably use them fine in manual mode if you use the sunny 16 or have a separate lightmeter.


As I suspected. Guess I'll stay a filmer for now.

PS, if anyone here has a Nikon FA body that they're looking to sell, please PM me.

PPS. If that was out-of-bounds, I apologize.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
Snapper
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:25 pm

LJ wrote:
Think of a digital camera using a digital viewfinder. Now, you know that the sensor uses the bulk of the battery power, right? How exactly does the live display work? It uses the sensor -- that's just like taking pictures except that you're looking at it for 20-30 seconds sometimes before a shot (which consumes a lot more power than simply capturing a picture. The act of framing a shot, if you are using the digital viewfinder, consumes more power than shooting the shot or any of the other camera functions (such as metering). The fact that the sensor is 'working' the entire time that you are framing the shot is the issue here.


I must be doing a really bad job of explaining myself, because people just keep feeling the need to explain this a bit further and seems to be getting redundant. Not all cameras have digital viewfinders, so the situation you explain here doesn't necessarily always apply. Yes, this would be the situation if an electronic viewfinder is used. Once again, this gets back to my original point many posts ago. A SLR will often get better battery life when compared to many prosumer digital cameras. Yes, there certainly are exceptions to the rule, but that exception is not the most commonly used practice.

LJ wrote:
This discussion may be getting confusing to people who are new to photography because a lot of the information going around really has nothing to do with SLR and everything to do with price point. Buffers, battery life, autofocus speed, shutter lag, et cetera are not restricted because the camera is not SLR. The advantages of SLR don't have to be numerous if you simply cannot do with a prosumer camera what you can do with an SLR.


Yes, all of the things you mention can certainly be as good on a prosumer as they can on a SLR. Unfortunately, I thought we are comparing what is available today. Your comment really seems to be nitpicking. I guess I should have been more clear with my earlier comments, and said that I was referring to what is available today. It just so happens that they are SLR cameras, and I was using the term SLR as a descriptive term to differentiate them between the other non-SLR cameras that everyone refers to as prosumer. The reality is that the camera you own and I own are really prosumer cameras as well, it just so happens that it utilizes a single lens reflex design.

LJ wrote:
And in my mind, the primary advantage of an SLR is the fact that you see the frame exactly when you're capturing it. The frame is life size rather than 2", so you get a far better feel for it and it is almost as if you're part of the picture rather than just holding a device in front of you looking at a tiny screen. You can apply filters and see how they affect the scene (something LCDs represent poorly), and you can buy high quality interchangable lenses (in theory, this could be done with prosumer cameras but what would be the point?)


Well, what you say is mostly true. What isn't true is that it isn't life size, most SLR cameras use 0.75x magnification making it smaller than life size. Perhaps I am nitpicking now. I think this may have been pointed out earlier, but I just want to be clear that what you see through the viewfinder is not 100% of the image except for the most expensive cameras on the market which happen to be SLRs. Without looking at the exact specs, the Canon 300D and Nikon D70 are probably around 90% and it gradually goes up from there.
 
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:34 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Aphasia wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
I've got a fair pile of cash invested in several Nikon non-AF lenses which see frequent use on my Nikon N2000. When someone can find me a way to use these on a digital body (that doesn't cost multi-kilobucks) I just might bite on digital. Until then, I'm a film guy (lusting after a Nikon FA body for a good price).


Have you seen a D70 or a D100?
The non CPU lenses dont meter correctly on the cheaper Nikon DSLR cameras. Most require the D1x or D2h and some doesnt meter at the D1x either. There is probably a list somwhere over what does what. Some lenses can be chipped so theyll meter, but thats a $90 or so.

Of course you can probably use them fine in manual mode if you use the sunny 16 or have a separate lightmeter.


As I suspected. Guess I'll stay a filmer for now.

PS, if anyone here has a Nikon FA body that they're looking to sell, please PM me.

PPS. If that was out-of-bounds, I apologize.


Unfortunately, I think you are out of luck CaptainNed. I don't see Nikon ever doing this, and if they had any plans to do it, I think it would have been done by now. With the direction of "G" and "DX" lenses, it appears all the more likely that this won't happen. I certainly hope that I am wrong.

When the D100 came out, I was really hoping it would be much closer to the F100. Unfortunately, the name was misleading and it should have been labeled the D80 instead. I am thinking/hoping that they make the D200 much more similar to the F100. I think they will have to, so it can differentiate itself from the D70. Right now the D100 offers very few things that would make anyone want to buy the D100 over the D70 IMO. If they did model the D200 after the F100 it might have the capabilities that you are looking for, since the F100 is able to meter using most Nikon MF lenses and not just the "P" lenses or lenses with chips installed.

A friend of mine was in a similar situation with Olympus gear, and he finally broke down and bought the D70. Luckily his daughter is taking advantage of his OM-2 and lenses.
 
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:04 pm

If something meters at 1/125 @ F2 on a P&S and then it should meter at 1/125 @ F2 on any other camera at the same ISO equiv

Unfortunately this isn't the case across even dSRLs. For example, for the same shot at the same lighting same aperture and same ISO the D70 will need about 25% more exposure time to yield a similar result to the 300D. Remember -- when you're talking F-stops you're talking about a ratio: the aperture / focusing distance. Digital cameras like the G5 has a focal range fo something like 7.3 - 28.8mm (35-140mm in 35mm equiv). Therefore, the aperture is actually about 1/5th of what it would be on a 35mm equivalent lens. I don't pretend to fully understand the implications of this, but I did notice that exposure times *are* different at identical sensitivities in different camera lines. It doesn't seem to be hard and set for consumer and prosumer digital cameras.
Unfortunately, I thought we are comparing what is available today.

Ah, and I was of the understanding that we're just comparing canonical SLR advantages vs non-SLR cameras. The point being that no matter how much nicer prosumers get, there will always have these disadvantages when compared to most SLR cameras.
Well, what you say is mostly true. What isn't true is that it isn't life size, most SLR cameras use 0.75x magnification making it smaller than life size [. . .] I think this may have been pointed out earlier, but I just want to be clear that what you see through the viewfinder is not 100% of the image except for the most expensive cameras on the market which happen to be SLRs. Without looking at the exact specs, the Canon 300D and Nikon D70 are probably around 90% and it gradually goes up from there.

True, these distinctions need to be made when considering cameras but the fact that you're looking at the picture, more or less in real life (0.88x magnificantion with 95% frame coverage on the 300D) compared to a 2" screen makes a HUGE difference in how you take pictures. In some respects, it is actually easier to frame a picture using a digital viewfinder, but that is the exception. And this is something non-SLR cameras will not be able to do properly for the general case.
 
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:32 pm

This seems to be getting into the realm of a religious debate. A camera is a tool in the hands of a person who knows how to use it. A great photographer can take great pictures with a P.O.S. camera. A lousy photographer, it doesn't matter how good the camera is.

Want some analogies? Super-fast PC, best tool around. Poor reflexes == lousy gaming experience. Crap computer, great skills...

A home builder with experience can build a fine home, even with tools that are not top of the line. A home builder with little experience or talent will build something that will probably be condemned.

Anyhow, get the tool that best suits what you want to do with it. The greatest, most important rule of thumb is a camera is only good if you have it with you. SLRs are notorius for being at home while you are out on a hike or doing something fun because they are a hassle to carry, load, choose a lens (or take the whole bag), and select the film type. A prosumer camera is like cramming 25lbs of equipment in a less than 2lb camera. You make small sacrifices, but for what most of us take pictures for is way more than enough.

The only reason IMHO to get an SLR vs prosumer these days is if you are a professional, and you need all of the possible tools at your disposal or you may not get the results you need to keep the jobs coming. The normal shmoe can botch a picture severly, and it wont cost you a job. The problem with investing in a dSLR at this point is new digital technologies come out so fast that in two years, your camera will be considered antiquated junk. If you prosumer it, you wont get suck a kick in the butt every time you upgrade.

If I were you I would look into the OLY C-8080, or similar. I was checking them out, and they have a bunch of great features and flexibility, and the results I've seen on the use groups are great.

Also see the front page here for some new arrivals. I am getting the itch to upgrade the V1, but the V1 is so much fun! The only problem I have with it are the slow optics. I haven't learned enough to take advantage of a SLR or dSLR at this point, so until I do, I will stick with the less expensive route of prosumer.

http://www.dpreview.com/

-LS
 
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:16 pm

This seems to be getting into the realm of a religious debate.

I disagree; I'm simply outlining the actual advantages SLR cameras have due to the fact that they're SLR cameras. SLR photography has properties very different from point and shoot photography -- we're not just looking at "some people prefer this vs that" kind of thing.
great photographer can take great pictures with a P.O.S. camera. A lousy photographer, it doesn't matter how good the camera is.

I actually thought something along these lines when I first got into photography. I'm certainly no expert, but I have worked with the point and shoot stuff (even with manual controls) and I saw the shortcomings of that equipment.

While a good photographer can apply a lot of his/her knowledge to taking great pictures with even a point and shoot camera, a lot of things can't be done nearly as well without the advantages of SLR photography. In fact, you need special lenses to do a lot of things very well at all (you'll be limited by focusing distances, amount of light, etc). The fact that at photographer is great doesn't make his lens any faster.
Want some analogies? Super-fast PC, best tool around. Poor reflexes == lousy gaming experience. Crap computer, great skills...

This is a fairly poor analogy and here is why: if you're using the same software you can do the same things with the slower computer -- except at a slower rate (although without high framerates in Quake3 you can't make some jumps =) The analogy would be more apt if you said something like, "a great graphic designer with MSPAINT could edit images just as well as he could with Photoshop CS." Of course, this isn't even close to true; while both of those tools can create and modify images, there is very little you can do with MSpaint that you can do with photoshop. It simply isn't possible.
SLRs are notorius for being at home while you are out on a hike or doing something fun because they are a hassle to carry, load, choose a lens (or take the whole bag), and select the film type.

True, SLRs do often get left at home. If you want something that can just take pictures while you're no a hike, it's a good idea to have a second camera. You don't need to have only one camera! To be fair, you're not comparing SLR vs prosumer here. You're comparing an SLR film camera to a consumer digicam. Most prosumer digital cameras are far too large to take hiking (a friend of mine has a G5 and takes a backpack -- the very same backpack he uses for his 300D and his lenses).

A lot of consumer and prosumer digital cameras have manual controls which is absolutely huge in allowing consumers to do a lot of things that used to be limited to SLR cameras (I believe -- it could be the case that some non-SLR films also had manual controls but I am unaware of many). This is a great thing for consumers because you can do a lot more with a point and shoot camera. Unfortunately, there is still a lot you absolutely cannot do on those cameras.

I haven't learned enough to take advantage of a SLR or dSLR at this point, so until I do, I will stick with the less expensive route of prosumer.

The best way to learn it is to use one. Find a friend who has one and borrow it from time to time if he's a nice guy.

Just to be clear: when I say prosumer digital camera, I'm referring to nonSLR stuff. The 300D (which is an entree level dSLR) is considered prosumer or even amateur in the digital world.
 
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:39 am

Snapper wrote:
LJ wrote:
And in my mind, the primary advantage of an SLR is the fact that you see the frame exactly when you're capturing it. The frame is life size rather than 2", so you get a far better feel for it and it is almost as if you're part of the picture rather than just holding a device in front of you looking at a tiny screen. You can apply filters and see how they affect the scene (something LCDs represent poorly), and you can buy high quality interchangable lenses (in theory, this could be done with prosumer cameras but what would be the point?)


Well, what you say is mostly true. What isn't true is that it isn't life size, most SLR cameras use 0.75x magnification making it smaller than life size. Perhaps I am nitpicking now. I think this may have been pointed out earlier, but I just want to be clear that what you see through the viewfinder is not 100% of the image except for the most expensive cameras on the market which happen to be SLRs. Without looking at the exact specs, the Canon 300D and Nikon D70 are probably around 90% and it gradually goes up from there.

I think it's also worth noting that for basically all P&S cameras while the composition can be difficult because of the small size of the LCD it does have 100% frame coverage so you do always see everything that's going to be in the picture. It's ironic but many of the lower end dSLRs (both the 300D/Digital Rebel and the D70) don't have 100% frame coverage... in the optical viewfinder. And before anyone complains that the optical viewfinders on a P&S have absolutely horrible coverage I'm just going to say that dSLRs don't have an LCD viewfinder at all! :)
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:59 am

LJ wrote:
This seems to be getting into the realm of a religious debate.

I disagree; I'm simply outlining the actual advantages SLR cameras have due to the fact that they're SLR cameras. SLR photography has properties very different from point and shoot photography -- we're not just looking at "some people prefer this vs that" kind of thing.

I disagree too. It's clear that there are a few of us with strong opinions here but we're not going all out R&P style yet, :).

great photographer can take great pictures with a P.O.S. camera. A lousy photographer, it doesn't matter how good the camera is.

I actually thought something along these lines when I first got into photography. I'm certainly no expert, but I have worked with the point and shoot stuff (even with manual controls) and I saw the shortcomings of that equipment.

While a good photographer can apply a lot of his/her knowledge to taking great pictures with even a point and shoot camera, a lot of things can't be done nearly as well without the advantages of SLR photography. In fact, you need special lenses to do a lot of things very well at all (you'll be limited by focusing distances, amount of light, etc). The fact that at photographer is great doesn't make his lens any faster.

Well to be clear I don't think that was his point. No one here has ever said that a Prosumer is as good or better than an (d)SLR. It's clear that a Prosumer camera is going to be limited compared to a (d)SLR and really the whole meat of this thread has been exploring the ways and hows of those limitations (and advantages). Hopefully someone reading this who didn't really look at the differences before will glean something useful out of our rambling here. I think the original poster was just reminding everyone that the equipment is not nearly as important to the picture as the person behind the camera. This is certainly good advice and always bears repeating IMO.

Basically it's a fact of life that a (d)SLR is going to be more capable than a Prosumer/P&S camera with the current state of technology. [Edit: And in some sense that's probably always going to be true because some of those limitations are optical, not electronic.] Certainly there are certain pictures that you can't take without a (d)SLR. But you know what? You don't have to take those kinds of pictures. The level of your equipment will certainly define the boundaries of what you can do, but within those boundaries you can take great pictures or lousy pictures. That limitation is not in the equipment.

SLRs are notorius for being at home while you are out on a hike or doing something fun because they are a hassle to carry, load, choose a lens (or take the whole bag), and select the film type.

True, SLRs do often get left at home. If you want something that can just take pictures while you're no a hike, it's a good idea to have a second camera. You don't need to have only one camera! To be fair, you're not comparing SLR vs prosumer here. You're comparing an SLR film camera to a consumer digicam. Most prosumer digital cameras are far too large to take hiking (a friend of mine has a G5 and takes a backpack -- the very same backpack he uses for his 300D and his lenses).

I'm inclined to disagree that almost any Prosumer digital camera compares in bulkiness and difficulty to carry compared to any dSLR. There really is no contest IMO. Even without any extra lenses a dSLR is quite a bit more. Maybe if you compare a Pentax *ist + a small prime with something like a Panasonic FZ10 or something... However the main message is very good advice. The take home point is that you need to have your camera with you if you want to take pictures. No one ever got a picture while the camera was at home. Regardless of (d)SLR or Prosumer/P&S you will have to decide whether the extra bulk of carrying a camera is worth it to you.
Last edited by HiggsBoson on Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HiggsBoson
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:09 am

liquidsquid wrote:
The problem with investing in a dSLR at this point is new digital technologies come out so fast that in two years, your camera will be considered antiquated junk. If you prosumer it, you wont get suck a kick in the butt every time you upgrade.

The problem I have with this argument is that if you can afford it a dSLR still retains it's value very well. Have you priced something like a D30 or D60 recently? Both cameras are absurdly old, but used gear is still fairly difficult to come by and still commands a decent price (from the point of view of "obsolete" electronics).

The other obvious thing is that when you get any kind of SLR system the vast majority of your investment is in glass. And lenses retain their value very well.

Plus it's also true that if you like the picture quality that a certain camera gives you whether Prosumer/P&S or dSLR just because it get's older doesn't mean it's suddenly going to give you worse pictures. The upgrade bug isn't quite as applicable to cameras.
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:51 am

HiggsBoson wrote:
The other obvious thing is that when you get any kind of SLR system the vast majority of your investment is in glass. And lenses retain their value very well.


Is this still true? From what I understand there are now different formats of glass since the sensors are smaller than the 35mm film was. For example I have seen recently dSLR lenses that would work for digital, but not for film since they project a smaller image size for the digital sensors to take advantage of the large glass and better match the properties of digtal sensors. This is a recent development from what I have seen, which makes me think that camera manufacturers are becomming committed to digital in the long term and phasing out film support slowly.

I would worry that as time goes on, the sensor sizes will change yet again, leaving some of the glass useless because it doesn't project a large enough frame or something. Probably wont happen though since the optimal sensor size has been pretty much nailed down.

I have the option of playing with a nice older Cannon dSLR which I have used at work occasionally to do some catalog work, but it is so cumbersome. I guess I would have to use it regularly to be familiar with the options to the point I can work with it quickly.

I am probably going to take home the dSLR for a while to play and learn, but I have been really dissapointed in my skills to frame a shot, all of my stuff looks so generic to me. Perhaps I can do some cool stuff with a dSLR. I was thinking of joining a camera club to get some inspiration and learn some other folks techniques.

Another point to make: Digital is very time consuming. I take way too many pictures when experimenting, and then spend a lot of time during transfer and selection of the good ones. Then I spend even more time patching them up, delivering them to family, etc. I was very suprised by the time involved, since I consider myself proficient at PC stuff.

One of the drawbacks of digital is the experimental pictures are "free" so you don't spend as much time thinking out the shot to get it right the first time. You tend to shoot several shots, then wait until the PC phase to fix it. Film forces you to think first, and spend the time to get the shot right, because it costs you film and money. Film is a good platform to work with, if only for this reason. Either that or limit yourself to a 32M flash card. Digital does make for a lazy photographer since it is so easy to take crap pictures.

-LS
 
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:14 am

Is this still true? From what I understand there are now different formats of glass since the sensors are smaller than the 35mm film was.
Most lenses are still normal 135 format lenses, nikon has a few DX lenses, and i think sigma has a few. Canon has said they just about never do that. the 18-55 EF-S Kít lense for the 300D is the sole exception to this rule. And thats only because the 17-40 is a pretty expensive piece of glass and 300D owners would need something for the wideangle.

Another point to make: Digital is very time consuming.
If you shoot slides or negfilm, then add the scan time and restoration time(neg scans can be quite difficult to get a really good result from) to that. And in the case if slides, framing time.

One of the drawbacks of digital is the experimental pictures are "free" so you don't spend as much time thinking out the shot to get it right the first time. You tend to shoot several shots, then wait until the PC phase to fix it. Film forces you to think first, and spend the time to get the shot right, because it costs you film and money. Film is a good platform to work with, if only for this reason. Either that or limit yourself to a 32M flash card. Digital does make for a lazy photographer since it is so easy to take crap pictures.
You will get tired of that eventually. I rarely shoot more then a few exposures with digital, I usually shoot one, then take a quick look at the histogram and compensate if theres something really wrong, or i need the extra detail a perfect exposure gets(not very often). I usually shoot more alternative exposures with film as it is. But more to get diverse composition, not varied exposures. If you use slide film, you need to know how to measure exposure and light. Thats the only way to get it good when viewed from a projector.
 
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:27 pm

HiggsBoson wrote:
If there's any particular thing that you think an SLR does better than a good mid-to-high range digital camera can do nowadays I wouldn't mind discussing it.

3 words: Depth of Field. While the high end digicam are very nice (i own a decent if old one), it's hard ot get a good depth of field on a small sensor/film plane.
Also, the noise factor for higher ISO is always a problem with smaller sensor cameras.
For the average picture taker, they might not be an issue, but for me, they make a big difference.

HiggsBoson wrote:
HowardDrake wrote:
This is just reminding me of my dream to own a Canon DSLR soon :)

Canon 1D MarkII all the way baby :) Unless you really WANT full frame...

- well, my my case it was MkII or eating and having a car... i know i need to get my priorities in order, but i chose the later two...

Aphasia wrote:
Manual focus sucks with P&S cameras, except the few which magnifies the center piece a bit. I even think the 1.6x DSLR is bad(at least indoors in available light). Try a 1Ds or 1D with a nice F2.8 lense and youll see the difference..

Well, if you compare the 300D to the 1Ds or 1DMkII, it doesn't have a good focusing screen for manual focus and canon doesn't make any of those split view ones, for the 300D. Then again.. the 300D doesn't cost many people's 2-3 month slaries either .)

Snapper wrote:
Actually, many DSLRs also have CCD sensors, so that isn't the real reason. The biggest reason is the batteries that are used in prosumer cameras versus the ones that are used in most DSLRs. I can take anywhere from 600-1000 pictures with my D100, and I have yet to see a prosumer camera that is capable of that.

I am sorry to hear that Canon cheated 300D users out of the same battery system that is in the 10D. I am shocked to hear that your A75 got you more pictures per charge. How many pictures do you get from you 300D?

actually i think a large part of the reason is you are not usign th eLCD to compose a shot... that is probably as big a drain on the battery as the CCD.
and from my experience, the 3o0D has a great battery life. i haven't counted the number of shots, but i do know i shot a whole wedding and reception with a 300D and two batteries. that counted doing some cursory reviews of the shots too.
 
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:42 pm

ryusen wrote:
HiggsBoson wrote:
If there's any particular thing that you think an SLR does better than a good mid-to-high range digital camera can do nowadays I wouldn't mind discussing it.

3 words: Depth of Field. While the high end digicam are very nice (i own a decent if old one), it's hard ot get a good depth of field on a small sensor/film plane.
Also, the noise factor for higher ISO is always a problem with smaller sensor cameras.
For the average picture taker, they might not be an issue, but for me, they make a big difference.

Totally good point about DOF, but I think you're phrasing it wrong. It's got more depth of field. For some that might be a disadvantage for others not. But it's important to bring that point up.

Higher ISO is of course nigh impossible with digicams though. On the other hand ISO100 (and the ISO64, ISO50) are perfectly fine. Although obviously that's no consolation if you're taking available light shots and 1/2 sec shutter speed is just not cutting it :)
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:13 pm

If you want crap for battery life, try the Sony V1. Blew trhough two $40 batteries on a single 256M flash.

The reason I stay away from SLRs is the crazy amount of research you have to do to match the glass with the camera and not get taken to the money wringers in the process. You really have to follow the hobby/business to know what the heck to do, or trust a camera salesman. You can trust a manufacturer like Cannon, but how do you know that some lenses meter right and some don't?

To me it seems simply too damned difficult to put together a good suite of equipment, and then it will be just like out computer hobby: upgrade upgrade upgrade until you are wondering why the wallet is empty again.

-LS
 
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:27 pm

well i think, the dSLR market is definatly for profesionals and hobbists. it's just too much of an investment for a casual photographer.
 
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Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:52 am

liquidsquid wrote:
If you want crap for battery life, try the Sony V1. Blew trhough two $40 batteries on a single 256M flash.

The reason I stay away from SLRs is the crazy amount of research you have to do to match the glass with the camera and not get taken to the money wringers in the process. You really have to follow the hobby/business to know what the heck to do, or trust a camera salesman. You can trust a manufacturer like Cannon, but how do you know that some lenses meter right and some don't?

To me it seems simply too damned difficult to put together a good suite of equipment, and then it will be just like out computer hobby: upgrade upgrade upgrade until you are wondering why the wallet is empty again.

-LS

Well I'm afraid you're a little too afraid here... firstly it is true, like anything else, that you have to do your homework before you buy anything. The simple truth is all the major manufactures have produced uninspiring lenses here and there so you should read reviews.

As far as things like whether a lens will meter that's generally more straightforward than you might think. IME the manufacturer is pretty clear about which lenses meter, which lenses don't, which lens mounts a particular body is compatible with, etc. Like the above conversation with Aphasia and Captain Ned. If anyone more familiar with SLRs could chime in I'm sure they could give you a more experienced opinion.

As far as the upgrade bug this is something I was alluding to before. The more you shoot the more you find out what your particular style is, perhaps you like nature photography with tight close-ups of animals or you like landscapes, maybe portraits or so. Along with developing that kind of feel for what kind of pictures you like, you'll also learn (eventually) which focal lengths you like. If you buy some good quality lenses in the regular lengths you use you're a lot more set then you might think.

As I was saying earlier lenses are a very serious investement and they hold their value well. Also if you have equipment that you can take reallly good pictures with now, you'll be able to take really good pictures with it tomorrow. It's not like computers when the next game comes out that you're framerates just don't keep up at full details anymore. Obviously I'm simplifying some of the aspects here and other people will probably chime in. But the main thing is, I really honestly think that the upgrade bug is not nearly as bad as you think it's going to be. It's true (at least for me) that you always want more kit, it's not true that you're always getting new kit to replace old kit that is obsolete or something. And again, because good quality gear can retain its value well, if you go back and sell the old kit in good condition it's quite reasonable.

Just my (long-winded) $0.02.
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Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:01 am

good point on the upgrade bug. while there are probably people on both sides, who just can't reist having the newest and bestest, not everyone is like that.
with photography, the teshnology always gives you the same performance, as long as it remains in the same condition.
with computers, the actual ned to upgrade, strikes when newer software you want to run, progressively requires more and more hardware. i've long told people who ask about "if their computer is obselete," that "it's obselete, when it no longer does what you need it to do." If all you need to do is surf the web, write some emails, and letters... your 4 years old PC is hardly obselete.

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