Keyboard suggestions for business user

[bhtooefr]

According to this, it's a silicone grease.

[TechieJay]

What sort of grease does one use for this?

This article also says to use silicon grease (see bottom item in list, "How to reduce Buckling sound")

http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/model_m_trivia.html

[TechieJay]

While doing all my research and making inquiries, I ordered an off-the-shelf Unicomp SpaceSaver from them and it arrived today.

I've only been banging away at it for half an hour so it's obviously way too early for me to judge how much I do or don't like the feel (though so far there's a bit more resistance to the keys than I would have thought would be optimal). The noise is certainly substantial.

What jumped out at me the moment I put it on my desk, however, is how really shoddy the workmanship is from a cosmetics and mechanical point of view with respect to the keys and case based on what I can see (and hear I might add). The photos on their website show deviations such as pits on the top surface of the case (especially in the areas above and between the Function keys), which are of course the result of a lousy mold. I figured it may look worse in the photo on the web than in real life. Well, it turns out it's just as bad in real life. Moreover, the keys themselves are really poorly made -- the tooling of the mold and attention to quality control is pure crap, there's just no other way to say it. Many of the keys have little plastic nipples hanging off of them from the production process (injection molded plastic). The Space key even has plastic hanging off the bottom edge on the left side like a wing -- again, left over from a very lousy injection-molded-plastic manufacturing process. And these are not like the little nipples of rubber that you get on, say, brand new tires on your car, which will quickly wear off from normal use. My choices are to live with them for perhaps years, or get out my X-Acto knife and clean up -- or finish -- their remarkably lousy manufacturing process.

Here are a few photos of my new Unicomp SpaceSaver that arrived today:







Almost everything you see in those photos that so much as looks like it might be a piece of plastic hanging off the side of the keys is in fact a piece of plastic hanging off the side of the keys.

Based on the cosmetics alone, I'm thoroughly unimpressed. They should be ashamed using the IBM Model M namesake in their marketing and then ship out a product that looks like this.

Need I mention the poor alignment of the keys, too -- the fact that they move out of position substantially? Check out the right-hand Windows key in the second image. I did not deliberately twist the key for the benefit of that photo -- I just happened to notice it after I took the picture. Look at the position of the Space key in the third photo. Again, I didn't do that either. (Hey, maybe this really is part of the original design. Maybe the pits in the top of the care are, too -- but why do I seriously doubt it?) But plastic nipples hanging off a dozen or more of the keys and a wing of plastic hanging off the Space key? Give me a break. $7 keyboards at the local office supply store would never ask you to put up with this kind if insulting workmanship.

And I'm pretty certain, without needing a Model M here to compare, that the Model M never had this kind of "cheap plastic" sound to it. I'll bet anything on that. But that’s another matter. And maybe I'm wrong on that.

Thoroughly unimpressed overall.

I'm now going to ask CVT to customize an Avant Stellar for me to move the backslash-pipe key to where the "local menu" key is, and to change the existing backslash-pipe key to an extra Shift key (so I can do my thumb-across Ctrl-Shift trick). Or, maybe I'll do that with an Avant Prime and see if I can either live with the beige color, assuming I like the keyboard.

And perhaps look into the Cherry.

I'm just not impressed here. Typing away, this is not the best keyboard on the market. I can say that even in the absence of having tried the others hey. Heck, the keys move around too much for it to be up there with the best. And this noise and feel are "cheap" to me. Maybe, for all I know, they went down in quality when coming out with the SpaceSaver -- maybe the Customizer is better manufacturing quality.

I'm just not impressed with what I have here. It’s a shame, too. I really wanted to like this keyboard, have one sent with grease, and call it a day. I actually do have a business to build here. I’m just looking for a really good keyboard and then I can go back to work and forget about this issue altogether… and work!

Maybe in time the "feel" will overwhelm me, and I will in fact get out my X-Acto and clean it up (and what... work on it with it upside down so all those plastic pieces don't fall right into the keyboard when I slice them off? ). And have them send me one with grease in the keys (at which point maybe I can also place a "special order" for one without plastic hanging off the keys, too).

[TechieJay]

FYI, I edited my preceding post: I added a third image which may show some of the nipples a bit better.

(Feel free to let me know if you think I'm being a bit too picky on this cosmetics issue.)

[bhtooefr]

Well, in a couple days, I'll be able to tell you how an EnduraPro 104, which is the TrackPoint-equipped version of the SpaceSaver, fares.

I'll note that slightly misaligned keys and poor injection molding have been the two biggest problems with the Model M since it was first made, although IBM clearly paid attention to at least shaving off the big chunks of excess plastic. (There are quite a few keys on this Model M that I'm typing on that could've been molded better...)

Here's pics of the two misaligned keys on this keyboard:





In the interest of full disclosure, I have reseated all the keys on this board. However, I do remember the F2 key being misaligned before I reseated the keys.

As for the typing feel... interesting. Well, the EnduraPro should tell me how it compares... I'm typing on the best Model M I've ever typed on (and one of the last to have ever been produced by IBM in the US,) so I'll be able to make a direct comparison. Plus, I'll have a refurbished Model M13 coming in, which is an even more direct comparison to the new EnduraPro. (Both are TrackPoint keyboards - the TrackPoint-equipped Model Ms are supposedly not QUITE as nice to type on, from what I've heard.)

I will mention that many regard the Lexmark-built Model Ms as lower quality than the IBM-built ones... and Unicomp's boards, IIRC, are closer to the Lexmark boards than the IBM ones. (Most of them were all built at the same plant, too.)

[bthylafh]

I'm looking more closely at my Unicomp. I see a few keys that are twisted out of true a bit, but they twisted right back, which points to loose tolerances. I don't notice the case being icky, but I've got a different model (Customizer-104 black USB, no stick mouse). Some small tags on the keys, but nothing like your space bar.

I expect it's partly because Unicomp bought the molds directly from Lexmark, which were probably the ones IBM used back in the mid-'80s. Rather worn-out.

Honestly, I don't notice those flaws, because I bought the keyboard for two reasons: buckling spring action and USB, and it delivers on both.

[bhtooefr]

The only difference between the EnduraPro and the SpaceSaver is the TrackPoint. Same casing, same keys, etc., etc. Note that the SpaceSaver even has a blank for the EnduraPro's TrackPoint buttons.

[emi25]

TechieJay, after I see that pictures, Unicomp lost a lot of potential customers, including me.

(correct me please, I'm trying to learn grammar)

[just brew it!]

I generally keep the lights off in my office when I'm working on the computer, so I don't look at the keyboard much.

Could they do a better job of molding the keys? Yeah. But I care a lot more about how the keyboard feels and works, and the Unicomp is less than half the price of the Avant Prime.

[bhtooefr]

TechieJay, after I saw those pictures, Unicomp lost a lot of potential customers, including me.

(correct me please, I'm trying to learn grammar)

Fixed for you.

I generally keep the lights off in my office when I'm working on the computer, so I don't look at the keyboard much.

Could they do a better job of molding the keys? Yeah. But I care a lot more about how the keyboard feels and works, and the Unicomp is less than half the price of the Avant Prime.

There's also another way to look at it. Towards the end, IBM was selling new Model Ms for $95, IIRC.

Unicomp sells the same thing for $59.

Something's gotta give, and if it's not the keyswitches (the most expensive part of the board, and the part that makes the board worth buying,) it's the plastics.

[emi25]

bhtooefr, thanks.

[bthylafh]

The only difference between the EnduraPro and the SpaceSaver is the TrackPoint. Same casing, same keys, etc., etc. Note that the SpaceSaver even has a blank for the EnduraPro's TrackPoint buttons.

D'oh, I'm an idiot. I got the Customizer 104 USB in black.

[bhtooefr]

The Customizer is on the old Model M chassis... although I believe the Customizer 104 uses the same internals and keycaps as the SpaceSaver...

[just brew it!]

There's also another way to look at it. Towards the end, IBM was selling new Model Ms for $95, IIRC.

That would've been $95 in early 1990s dollars. So effectively substantially more than that (probably close to what the Avant Prime goes for today).

[bthylafh]

According to westegg, $95 in 1993 dollars is $138.77 in 2007 dollars.

[bhtooefr]

I should say, towards the end of IBM-branded (but not necessarily actual IBM - although I think the last were actually made by IBM UK, as well as Unicomp) Model M production, so we're talking early 2000's at the latest, and I think 1999 or so.

[TechieJay]

So, what other electronics with plastics have any of you paid more than $10 for in the past year that looked so crappy?

The pictures really don't begin to do justice to the nipples hanging off all those keys.

I'm CEO of a manufacturing company. For me to put product like that out the door, I'd be ashamed to come to work -- thought I'd be fired the first day I failed to correct it, too. I also know that a $10/hr laborer with the right equipment can clean up, oh, what, ten keyboards an hour ($1 each), twenty ($0.50 each), fifty ($0.20 each)?

If it was your company and you cared what you were sending your customer, would you ship them like that?

Which tells me probably all possible corners are being cut.

And I'm absolutely not sold on the idea that they saved all that savings to put it into maximum quality of tactile response. I'd love someone who has experience with a Model M and also a new Unicomp to tell me the feell, and sound, are really all that close. I'm typing away on that thing (right now my laptop is feelng not so bad today) and the feel and sound keep resonating "cheap plastic" and for that reason alone I can't wait to replace it with something more well made (maybe I'm now biased because of what I see with the plastic, but really, even trying to warm up to just the feel, I feel and hear "cheap plastic construction" and it's not going to stay on my desk for that one reason alone).

[bthylafh]

In truth, my real Ms are somewhat... better feeling, for lack of a better term (except for wear on the Lexmark-made ones), though IMO not as bad as you think, and you've got a point about being ashamed to do an unprofessional job.

But I'd still take a Unicomp over a random rubber-dome keyboard.

[TechieJay]

But I'd still take a Unicomp over a random rubber-dome keyboard.

Any experience with or opinion on Avant or Cherry?

[bhtooefr]

Well, like I said, I'll be getting an EnduraPro, which is the same thing as your SpaceSaver, just with the addition of a TrackPoint, very soon now.

I'll post a comparison between it and my 1993 1391401 here. (And, if I get my Model M13 reasonably quickly, I'll toss it in the comparison, too.)

[bthylafh]

But I'd still take a Unicomp over a random rubber-dome keyboard.

Any experience with or opinion on Avant or Cherry?

None, sorry.

[just brew it!]

But I'd still take a Unicomp over a random rubber-dome keyboard.

...and IMO that really is the point. I have encountered one, maybe two rubber dome keyboards over the past ~20 years that I thought were actually good. The rest have ranged from bad to the point of being unusable, to barely acceptable. Are the current Unicomp boards perfect? Nope. But they feel better to me than 99% of the rubber dome models on the market, and cost significantly less than keyboards based on Alps switches.

If I had to replace my Unicomp today, I would order another Unicomp without hesitation.

[TechieJay]

As I said, it's too early for me to judge the feel of the Unicomp.

Meanwhile, I'm curious why CVT Avant is not mentioned in saying "if I had to choose between Unicomp and rubber dome" -- most of my research, including a thread on this forum (http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=57502) indicates the two are both considered the best and both are considered to blow away rubber dome.

And I'm still wondering if anything in the current Cherry line is worth considering, too.

[just brew it!]

Meanwhile, I'm curious why CVT Avant is not mentioned in saying "if I had to choose between Unicomp and rubber dome" -- most of my research, including a thread on this forum (http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=57502) indicates the two are both considered the best and both are considered to blow away rubber dome.

The Avant Prime costs more than 2x as much as the Unicomp. Given that buckling spring is (to me) already pretty close to ideal in terms of tactile feedback, I can't really justify paying the premium for the Avant.

Though I have to say the n-key rollover is tempting...

[bhtooefr]

There's also the fact that I've never typed on either a Northgate Omnikey or a CVT Avant.

[JustAnEngineer]

I've never typed on either a Northgate Omnikey or a CVT Avant.

There's the real reason that the CVT keyboard isn't getting any hype, TechieJay.


I own and use IBM Model M keyboards, a CVT Avant Prime and a few others. The CVT Avant Prime is by far my favorite keyboard of all of them. If you want something in black with function keys down the side, the Avant Stellar is the way to go. I acknowledge that these keyboards are more expensive than most of the mass-produced models available, but if keyboard tactile feedback matters to you, it's worth it.

The sane reason for choosing a high-quality keyboard (other than bragging rights) is ergonomics. Along that line, I will suggest getting a gel wrist pillow for your new keyboard.

[pikaporeon]

I couldn't justify the avant investment especially as my desk space is crampt as is, and I'd want the extra function key row


TechieJay - Unicomp has always seemed a rather personal company, having called me and such to clarify shipping proceedures. Have you fired off an email to them explaining your issues?

My keyboard has no impurites save for my windows key being twisted perhaps a degree.

[emi25]

TechieJay - Unicomp has (...). Have you fired off an email to them explaining your issues? ...

I don't think they will change something in their products. If the only issue was the key finish, you can order a fine sand paper, and get them a fine look. But sorry, there is more crappy things.

[bthylafh]

There's a small reason why I don't think I'd like an Avant: the layout. I abhor big L-shaped Enter keys, because they either shift the pipe key elsewhere or make the backspace too small to easily reach. The keyswitches could be wonderful, even better than buckling-spring, but I'd still hate that one little thing.

[bhtooefr]

There's a small reason why I don't think I'd like an Avant: the layout. I abhor big L-shaped Enter keys, because they either shift the pipe key elsewhere or make the backspace too small to easily reach. The keyswitches could be wonderful, even better than buckling-spring, but I'd still hate that one little thing.

Ah, yes, there is that. I forgot about that... and I hate L-shaped Enters with a passion.

The keyswitches could be orgasmically good, and I'd still prefer the Model M. (Besides, the Model M is easier to clean... )