Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention...

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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:59 am

Taski wrote:Has there been any updates with this topic, mostly regarding the 560 ti drivers that work best?


Sorry for the late reply, but for me it has been fixed with 295.73 drivers. I have yet to experience another TDR and as you can see above i installed the drivers back in May. As said before i have a Gainward GTX 560 Ti (reference clocks but custom Gainward design).

But as you can see above others still get TDRs with 295.73......so i guess it's not the same for everybody.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:27 am

TDR is back with the latest 327.23 official driver. I installed it because it was required to play the BF4 beta...

OS Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit
Phenom II x4 955 CPU
Gainward GTX 560 Ti (stock settings)
8 GB DDR3

The TDR happened both while browsing the internet and during gameplay. I tried a supposed solution of increasing the TDRdelay from regedit but that didn't work.

Anybody running Windows 8 or 8.1? Do you get TDRs on those windows versions?

Found this thread on the NVidia forum about it:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topi ... -thread-/1

There are plenty of people experiencing the TDR again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UogERQ8liw0

Any chance TR can look into this, maybe ask NVidia about it? To me it's a way more broken thing than the AMD's problems with 4k.

Here is the TDR error I got while browsing youtube:
http://i.imgur.com/hpW1heO.png
Last edited by Arclight on Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:51 am

Arclight wrote:TDR is back with the latest 327.23 official driver. I installed it because it was required to play the BF4 beta...

Arclight wrote:Anybody running Windows 8 or 8.1? Do you get TDRs on those windows versions?

I've got two Windows 8 rigs. One is running 327.23 (GTX 570 SLI) and the other is running 331.40 (GTX 770 SLI). No issues to report (I play BF4 daily on the 331.40 rig).

Have you tried 331.40?
Last edited by End User on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:56 am

I'm only running Kepler now (no longer own any Fermi) and so far, no issues on 327.23 but I'm not in the BF4 beta.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:14 am

Arclight wrote:TDR is back with the latest 327.23 official driver. I installed it because it was required to play the BF4 beta...
The TDR happened both while browsing the internet and during gameplay. I tried a supposed solution of increasing the TDRdelay from regedit but that didn't work.
Here the TDR error I got while browsing youtube:
http://i.imgur.com/hpW1heO.png


I would suggest contacting your card's vendor and exercising your warranty. That is what it is for.
Last edited by Forge on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:19 am

Just get a better video card, either from Nvidia or AMD. Unless you actually enjoy suffering :roll: 4xx-5xx series of cards were known to have such defect for a long time already - some theories blame a bad BIOS code for certain models of these cards, some blame the bad reference board designs... doesn't really matter who is correct. All that matters is the fact that Nvidia is perfectly aware of these issues and all they can do is to implement some band-aid fixes, which may or may not work for some people with some games. Continue complaining about it will not really solve anything. Not trying to be mean here, just trying to be a realist.

For the record - both of my last-gen GTX680 and current Titan work perfectly with all of latest driver builds, both beta and WHQL, regardless of OS (yes, I do use Win8). I've never had a single driver crash/recovery with them. And yes, I am aware of few current 7xx or 6xx-series card owners also having such issues but the percentage of these people is extremely low (compared to 4xx-5xx series owners).
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:27 pm

Forge wrote:I would suggest contacting your card's vendor and exercising your warranty. That is what it is for.


I would like to but I can't since the error happens randomly and they might not be able to replicate the conditions which trigger the TDR.

JohnC wrote:Just get a better video card, either from Nvidia or AMD. [...]


I will try to buy a new card although I don't know how much it will take to gather the cash, maybe 6 months or more.

At the moment the R9 270X looks pretty good with 7950 level performance while being quite a bit cheaper (keep in mind I live in Europe and the prices are higher and the products are priced a bit different from the US) while the R280x is even better but it might be outside of my price range, unless it comes down in price a bit till then .

Point being, for the moment I'm stuck with the 560 ti...

End User wrote:[...]Have you tried 331.40?


I installed this driver today...now it's a waiting game.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:04 pm

If you're still suffering from this, it is a defective card.

RMA that sucker.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:58 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:If you're still suffering from this, it is a defective card.

RMA that sucker.

I don't know if it's universal, but lots of people with 560Ti card can't run drivers >314.22 without crashes. I know I can't.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:03 pm

So since they MIGHT not replace your card in an RMA (they very likely would), you're not even going to try.

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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:19 pm

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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:23 pm

Forge wrote:So since they MIGHT not replace your card in an RMA (they very likely would), you're not even going to try.

It might rain outside, I think I'll stay inside for the rest of my life.


RMA is not actually RMA over here since resellers are actually based in other countries like Germany and the product warranty was given, in my case, by the store that sold it to me.

What this means is that i'll have to send the card back to the store from where i bought it (I say store but it's actually a chain of stores which belong to a single company and they have their own department that handles warranties). There it will be put on a test bench and monitored for a few days while running a few programs to stress the card. Depending on what driver they will install and what programs they will use, the card could actually appear to be stable (after all it is for me with specific drivers). At this point they'll conclude that the card is good and they will just send it back and charge me with the shipment costs and the fees for testing.

At this point I might as well start saving some money and when I get close to the amount I need, i'll sell the GTX 560 Ti at a discounted second hand price and move on. There is really no point in taking the risk now.

To be clear, if the card was stable, I could easily keep using it for another year or two without problems considering that most of the games I play at the moment run at an acceptable fps (exception being Planetside 2 which is very CPU intensive).

I'm not entertaining the idea that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but for what it's worth, nvidia lost another customer since I will certainly buy AMD when I upgrade.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:40 pm

Arclight wrote:i'll sell the GTX 560 Ti at a discounted second hand price and move on.


Do not foist that onto someone else. Selling defective hardware to people is ethically bankrupt.

Arclight wrote:nvidia lost another customer since I will certainly buy AMD when I upgrade.


Don't blame NVIDIA. Blame whoever made your card. MSI, Asus, or whatever. You've got a lemon and that's not NVIDIA's fault. It's far more likely a bad PCB or voltage regulating component than chip.

Also not NVIDIA's fault that your regional RMA system is screwed up.

Crazybus wrote:I don't know if it's universal, but lots of people with 560Ti card can't run drivers >314.22 without crashes. I know I can't.


RMA.

clone wrote:that'd depend on importance and significance, the problem with RMA's is the turnaround time, if he's got school work to do it's not ideal, I'm like most others in the "grab another card camp" but that's because I've got the coin available but not everyone does.


If you're going to force yourself into that dichotomy than you have a choice to make. Anything made by humans is going to have defects. There is no such thing as complete perfection. You have to accept that reality. It is amongst the reason that running to a completely different vendor is amusing to me. Sooner or later you will have a defective product from them too. It's not a matter of if, just when. It's not a rational strategy to assume otherwise.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:55 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:
Arclight wrote:nvidia lost another customer since I will certainly buy AMD when I upgrade.

Don't blame NVIDIA. Blame whoever made your card. MSI, Asus, or whatever. You've got a lemon and that's not NVIDIA's fault. It's far more likely a bad PCB or voltage regulating component than chip.
I bought and sold probably two dozen Fermi-based cards, and I NEVER had TDR issues. I think you're right on the money about it being a bunch of lame cards; it had very little to do with Nvidia. Seeing people blame Nvidia for this makes me very angry. ( ≧Д≦)
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:15 pm

auxy wrote:Seeing people blame Nvidia for this makes me very angry. ( ≧Д≦)

Remember where anger leads to? :wink: Srsly, no need to upset over such minor things. Nvidia may actually be at fault for causing such elevated defect rates for certain generation of cards, but noone knows for sure and it doesn't really matter anymore - the latest generations of cards work perfectly fine for vast majority of consumers, and for people who are still afraid of buying their products there's always AMD.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:25 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:Do not foist that onto someone else. Selling defective hardware to people is ethically bankrupt.

Don't blame NVIDIA. Blame whoever made your card. MSI, Asus, or whatever. You've got a lemon and that's not NVIDIA's fault. It's far more likely a bad PCB or voltage regulating component than chip.


I've seen dead cards being sold so I don't see why I can't sell mine. Now don't get me wrong, when I said dead cards I meant that the seller specified they were not functional and the price was adjusted accordingly. I'll do the same for mine, i'll put a price lower than what this card normally sells for second hand while specifying to the buyer that it has TDR issues.

I do blame NVidia since they allowed their board partners to modify their reference design and they did not make them do a mass recall/replacement when the problem showed up back in 2011. I presume they thought they could patch it up with drivers but as we found out, it was not to be.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:35 pm

.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:42 pm

Arclight wrote:Now don't get me wrong, when I said dead cards I meant that the seller specified they were not functional and the price was adjusted accordingly. I'll do the same for mine, i'll put a price lower than what this card normally sells for second hand while specifying to the buyer that it has TDR issues.


So long as they know what they're buying, so be it.

Arclight wrote:I do blame NVidia since they allowed their board partners to modify their reference design and they did not make them do a mass recall/replacement when the problem showed up back in 2011. I presume they thought they could patch it up with drivers but as we found out, it was not to be.


The vendors did replace cards during said timeframe (you can find plenty of individual stories from that era). As you note though, apparently your warranty system prevents you from getting direct service with the vendor. So again, not NVIDIA's fault.

(You should have a large pile of evidence sitting at "C:\Windows\LiveKernelReports\WATCHDOG". That's where TDR dump reports are written.)

This issue wasn't big enough for a general recall. NVIDIA would only issue a recall for a defective chip that impacted all models. Again this wasn't that sort of issue. This was simply an update to the driver that started better leveraging the chip. That better leveraging of the chip exposed defective hardware as being defective.

There is no fixing this in software. You're falling into an ever too common trap I see from junior technicians. To believe that it's always just a software bug. It's not the software, it is the hardware.

There was a real software TDR issue that got conflated with the unveiling of all this defective hardware. That issue has been fixed. There is nothing left to fix at this point (and frankly can't be fixed without a performance and efficiency regression). You don't regress your software for defective hardware. Defective hardware has a servicing method to fix this problem.

You're also falling into the trap of seeing Internet threads as being a larger issue than it actually is. The people with defective hardware still experiencing this fall into a typical industry failure rate.

I suspect though the only thing that's going to get you to realize reality is to buy defective AMD hardware. I think once the shoe is on the other foot things will finally be more clear.

To that end I have a defective 4870X2 with the infamous black square problem I'll sell you for real cheap.

I mean look at all those hits from Google. Surely that implies it's a widespread software problem or hardware problem. Why hasn't AMD done a recall? Why haven't they fixed it in their drivers? It even happens in newer chips! What are their engineers doing? How many years will it take to fix this? Clearly they don't care about their customers.
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:57 pm

Ryu Connor wrote:The vendors did replace cards during said timeframe (you can find plenty of individual stories from that era). As you note though, apparently your warranty system prevents you from getting direct service with the vendor. So again, not NVIDIA's fault.

(You should have a large pile of evidence sitting at "C:\Windows\LiveKernelReports\WATCHDOG". That's where TDR dump reports are written.)[...]



The dumps were where you said they will be and the date of the latest one matches the TDR error. I'm not exactly familiar with watchdog, any pointers on how to open/analyze this .dmp files?
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Re: Unsolved Nvidia TDR Issues - This needs some attention..

Postposted on Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:07 pm

http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/blue_screen_view.html

This utility is pretty straight forward, tiny, and digitally signed. Unfortunately it helps to be a programmer so you have the training to trace the stack. That being said it will tell you exactly what module failed (it should say the NVidia driver is as fault).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinDbg

This utility is less straight forward and more powerful. Same issue as above, it helps to be a programmer to trace the stack. It too will tell you what module failed and I suspect it will say the NVidia driver.

With enough of them and the right skillset it should be possible to tell that the video card is "losing its marbles". That would mean the hardware is defective.
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