BF4 Mantle Thread

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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:59 am

blightymate wrote:You well illuminate your true character with such words.

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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:10 am

blightymate wrote:You well illuminate your true character with such words.

In the great words of some Earthlings I met a while ago "You are not helping."
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:34 pm

Savyg wrote:
blightymate wrote:You well illuminate your true character with such words.

In the great words of some Earthlings I met a while ago "You are not helping."


Not helping what?

Chukula didn't debate specific points on technical or logical merits, he opened his post with a broad specious FUD generality - "That rather lengthy set of slides has lots and lots of grandiose speculation" - without providing the slightest particular to support such a statement, which is bad enough, but he directed such specious FUD at what is unarguably one of the most brilliant and able minds in the gaming industry.

Helping 'explain' the facts to one who posts such is a fools errand as a demonstrated intent to honestly debate and better understand is lacking and a demonstrated intent to spread unsupported FUD, facts and logic be damned, is in evidence.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:34 pm

It's the 'holier than thou' attitude which tends to irritate people, whether they're in the right or not.

At any rate, considering those slides were presented at an AMD developer conference, I'd say very little of it was speculation.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:42 pm

blightymate wrote:Not helping what?


We realize you're here to evangelize Mantle, not actually participate in this community. Kyle Bennett was pretty clear about that when he locked your thread on the [H] Forums. Just like there, there's very little reason to discuss Mantle in depth when we have no product to discuss.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:07 am

We do have some early perf claims finally
http://wccftech.com/amd-kaveri-apu-a107 ... r-directx/
Still waiting on the code obviously. I would suspect they want it out before the Kaveri launch, but we'll see if that actually happens.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:19 am

Savyg wrote:We do have some early perf claims finally
http://wccftech.com/amd-kaveri-apu-a107 ... r-directx/
Still waiting on the code obviously. I would suspect they want it out before the Kaveri launch, but we'll see if that actually happens.



Having seen those AMD slides... I take back something I had predicted earlier: I had predicted that Kaveri's IGP would beat the Iris Pro parts. Given that AMD went out of its way to avoid comparisons to Iris Pro... even in its own press slides where it is free to fiddle with the knobs to make Kaveri look as good as possible... it's pretty clear that Kaveri isn't beating the Iris Pro by an appreciable margin even when Kaveri has a 95 watt power envelope. When you force Kaveri down to the same power envelopes of the Iris Pro parts, then Kaveri flat-out loses.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:48 am

Airmantharp wrote:
blightymate wrote:Not helping what?


We realize you're here to evangelize Mantle, not actually participate in this community. Kyle Bennett was pretty clear about that when he locked your thread on the [H] Forums. Just like there, there's very little reason to discuss Mantle in depth when we have no product to discuss.


Not only locked his thread - this shill/troll was banned at HardOCP, Anandtech and other forums. Not very smart to copypaste same exact thing under same exact nickname... But then again, it did actually work on plenty of simple-minded people :wink:
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:00 pm

chuckula wrote:Having seen those AMD slides... I take back something I had predicted earlier: I had predicted that Kaveri's IGP would beat the Iris Pro parts. Given that AMD went out of its way to avoid comparisons to Iris Pro... even in its own press slides where it is free to fiddle with the knobs to make Kaveri look as good as possible... it's pretty clear that Kaveri isn't beating the Iris Pro by an appreciable margin even when Kaveri has a 95 watt power envelope. When you force Kaveri down to the same power envelopes of the Iris Pro parts, then Kaveri flat-out loses.

Where are these Iris Pro parts? (I don't see any on Newegg.) How much do they cost compared to the high end Kaveri?

That means nothing to me if we're comparing a $180 part against a $400 part.

And of course they don't have Mantle, which we don't have any actual game benches on yet.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:13 pm

doesn't even look like Iris Pro can handle 1600x900 much less 1080p, the Kaveri benches shown are 1080p

I guess we'll see soon enough at any rate.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:34 pm

JohnC wrote:
Airmantharp wrote:
blightymate wrote:Not helping what?


We realize you're here to evangelize Mantle, not actually participate in this community. Kyle Bennett was pretty clear about that when he locked your thread on the [H] Forums. Just like there, there's very little reason to discuss Mantle in depth when we have no product to discuss.


Not only locked his thread - this shill/troll was banned at HardOCP, Anandtech and other forums.


Had to go check and see that he was banned- that never gets old!
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:47 pm

Airmantharp wrote: Had to go check and see that he was banned- that never gets old!


Oh dear god, Snakeoil/fans again !?
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:06 pm

Mantle is not OPEN SOURCE. There no source to speak off beside the current AMD driver for GCN HW.
So asking "Is mantle open source" makes no sense.
Its like asking is "OpenGL open source" .. and the answer is a resounding NO, OpenGL is NOT open source.

Ok. so we cleared that. Mantle is not open source and never will be, just like OpenGL.

The question really is. Can Mantle be the driving force for a modern graphic API tailored to modern GPUs, because today none exists.
And that seem to be a resounding yes from Mantle co developers Dice.

But I dont see this happening, not because of technical reasons but political.

So my Crystal ball tells me Mantle will forever be an AMD exclusive API.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:33 pm

More on the recent slides.

The demo that show a 3X perf boost with mantle on Kaveri and 2x on an i7-4670k with a GCN discreet GPU will be released on steam this month.
http://forums.elementalgame.com/451041/page/1/#3430480

I think some people are in denial about Mantle, big time.... and are going to be flabbergasted.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:43 pm

sschaem wrote:More on the recent slides.

The demo that show a 3X perf boost with mantle on Kaveri and 2x on an i7-4670k with a GCN discreet GPU will be released on steam this month.
http://forums.elementalgame.com/451041/page/1/#3430480

I think some people are in denial about Mantle, big time.... and are going to be flabbergasted.


1. 3X in an isolated benchmark is easy when you go from horrible optimization to "Mantle" optimization. Look at the promises for BF4... well given how poorly the default version of BF4 seems to be doing, is it because Mantle is amazing or because it's easy to look "amazing" when you compare yourself to crap?

2. I've said all along that Mantle is in place to paper over deficiencies in the CPU power of AMD's non-FX series processors and I've seen nothing in AMD's slides that indicates otherwise. AMD came up with Mantle so that a relatively weak Kaveri CPU can drive an R9-290X and likely its successor without choking performance. That's all well and good, but when the CPU isn't a bottleneck to begin with, Mantle isn't going to work any miracles.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:49 pm

sschaem wrote:More on the recent slides.

The demo that show a 3X perf boost with mantle on Kaveri and 2x on an i7-4670k with a GCN discreet GPU will be released on steam this month.
http://forums.elementalgame.com/451041/page/1/#3430480

I think some people are in denial about Mantle, big time.... and are going to be flabbergasted.



show me the TR and Anandtech reviews with a phenonx6, amd8350, Kevari-apu, I7-4670k, i52500k with a amd 7770 and a nvidia 6600 as the graphics cards. *then* i will believe it may work in a limited market with even less consumer support.

*BUT* what will you do when Nivida does the same thing ? and you cannot play your favorite game because it is NOT mantle, but Nvidicized ?

as for the link... a slide.. thats it? wheres the demo they promised .. ?
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:56 pm

chuckula wrote:
sschaem wrote:More on the recent slides.

The demo that show a 3X perf boost with mantle on Kaveri and 2x on an i7-4670k with a GCN discreet GPU will be released on steam this month.
http://forums.elementalgame.com/451041/page/1/#3430480

I think some people are in denial about Mantle, big time.... and are going to be flabbergasted.


1. 3X in an isolated benchmark is easy when you go from horrible optimization to "Mantle" optimization. Look at the promises for BF4... well given how poorly the default version of BF4 seems to be doing, is it because Mantle is amazing or because it's easy to look "amazing" when you compare yourself to crap?

2. I've said all along that Mantle is in place to paper over deficiencies in the CPU power of AMD's non-FX series processors and I've seen nothing in AMD's slides that indicates otherwise. AMD came up with Mantle so that a relatively weak Kaveri CPU can drive an R9-290X and likely its successor without choking performance. That's all well and good, but when the CPU isn't a bottleneck to begin with, Mantle isn't going to work any miracles.


Because seriously... anyone can code to get a 200% increase for staring at a wall for 10 seconds to get a higher FPS ceiling.. after all this is AMD "king" of the (fake, and now abandoned) 8 core cpus and their unicorn marketing team.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:07 pm

sschaem wrote:I think some people are in denial about Mantle, big time.... and are going to be flabbergasted.

agreed. It's stronger here though, and I haven't felt like getting into arguments about it so *shrug*

Nice find, btw. I won't be Mantle ready til March myself, since I'll be putting the 660 in my Kaveri until I can get the R9 280X. :/
maxxcool wrote:show me the TR and Anandtech reviews with a phenonx6, amd8350, Kevari-apu, I7-4670k, i52500k with a amd 7770 and a nvidia 6600 as the graphics cards. *then* i will believe it may work in a limited market with even less consumer support.

*BUT* what will you do when Nivida does the same thing ? and you cannot play your favorite game because it is NOT mantle, but Nvidicized ?

We'll see them soon enough.

Between PhysX and CUDA NV has already been splintering the PC game market quite enough. I'd hope this time they'd try something different.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:10 am

AMD says a 45% increase in BF4 Mantle vs. Direct 3D on Kaveri.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:14 am

blightymate wrote:AMD says a 45% increase in BF4 Mantle vs. Direct 3D on Kaveri.


Could you post the link to this info?
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:41 pm

Jon1984 wrote:
blightymate wrote:AMD says a 45% increase in BF4 Mantle vs. Direct 3D on Kaveri.


Could you post the link to this info?

I just did.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:46 pm

Savyg wrote:
Jon1984 wrote:
blightymate wrote:AMD says a 45% increase in BF4 Mantle vs. Direct 3D on Kaveri.


Could you post the link to this info?

I just did.


Yeah, just saw it now, thanks!
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:04 pm

that 45% is a step up from what they were saying before though.

I'm wondering how much of that is Mantle being coded for HSA. I mean, why wouldn't AMD code it for that? So that 45% improvement may only come if you have Kaveri or a similarly HSA cpu, and may not apply if you're just using an AMD GPU with an Intel processor.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:08 pm

fhohj wrote:that 45% is a step up from what they were saying before though.

I'm wondering how much of that is Mantle being coded for HSA. I mean, why wouldn't AMD code it for that? So that 45% improvement may only come if you have Kaveri or a similarly HSA cpu, and may not apply if you're just using an AMD GPU with an Intel processor.


I'm seeing a whole lot of predictions and numbers without a whole lot of context, and I'll reiterate that this discussion should wait until we have real data to chew on.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:10 pm

fhohj wrote:that 45% is a step up from what they were saying before though.

I'm wondering how much of that is Mantle being coded for HSA. I mean, why wouldn't AMD code it for that? So that 45% improvement may only come if you have Kaveri or a similarly HSA cpu, and may not apply if you're just using an AMD GPU with an Intel processor.

They've been talking up weaker CPUs being just as capable as Intels high end, so I doubt it has anything to do with HSA except in that their HSA parts all use GCN as well.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:48 pm

Airmantharp wrote:I'm seeing a whole lot of predictions and numbers without a whole lot of context, and I'll reiterate that this discussion should wait until we have real data to chew on.

It's still in relation to BF4 and Mantle, either way.

You can't fault people for being excited IMO, considering the last time anything terribly interesting happened was DX11. Over three years ago. Heh.

Did DX11 even have this much excitement before release? Did it have this much support at release? Heh.

I can't believe DX9 is still a thing.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:48 pm

Good thing not everyone wait until after the facts to talk, otherwise lots of weatherman would be out of work.

Mantle is a great subject to talk about today because we do have plenty of data and insider info.
Fact, in api limited scenario, using an i7-4670k, mantle deliver 2x the FPS vs direct3d11 using the oxide render engine.
And a 3x fps gain on kavery.

AMD/dice released bf4 numbers at ces showing a 45% gain... Was it also on a i7-4670k or a 1 module kavery?
My guess this AMD claimed 45% speedup for bf4 is with a mobile kavery. Does that make it all any less valid?

AMD also posted hours of tech details on mantle, and it all make sense as to why it had to exist.
It a huge leap forward, and I hope this inspire Microsoft... Or maybe its time to have vendor provide specific api beside opengl.
Its clear developer don't mind as they already have abstraction for so many platforms.

Developers on a tight budget will stick to opengl.. The other will offer an Xbox, ps3, ps4, wiiu, directx9 / directx11, opengl, mantle, and possibly soon a new nvidia api...
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:01 pm

My understanding is that Mantle helps lower CPU overhead, helps make it easier for less powerful processors to handle demanding games. One example in CES was a game running on a Bulldozer downclocked to 2ghz w/Mantle to illustrate this overhead reduction.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:00 pm

fhohj wrote:that 45% is a step up from what they were saying before though.

A Nixxes dev said 20%, but without any context. The new stuff says up to 45%, which makes more sense than a static 20% increase. And obviously it can be much bigger if you push into 'wouldn't even bother trying this with D3D11' territory, but we'll see if anyone goes there anytime soon.

I'm guessing beta 14.1 and the Mantle port will both release on the 14th, but we'll see. I just can't wait to get my machine built. =) It doth officially suck that I won't have it Mantle ready til March.
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Re: BF4 Mantle Thread

Postposted on Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:27 pm

Looks like the 13.55 driver set to arrive this month is going to enable Mantle and TrueAudio support in their drivers. The mantle patch can't possibly be coming too late after that.

http://videocardz.com/48716/amd-mantle- ... ater-month
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