Finally upgrading from CRT

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Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:57 am

My 24" widescreen trinitron is finally giving up the ghost. In researching what I should replace it with, I'm finding all LCD options inferior and I am having trouble weighing the trade-offs.

My budget is flexible, but I'd like to stay under/around $1000, unless there is something so amazing that costs a bit more, but I don't think that's the case.

I currently run 24" 1920x1200, and like that resolution.

I do about equal amounts gaming, photo editing, and movie watching.

So this is my dilemma. My gaming friends are screaming for me to get a BenQ monitor so I can have a low latency display, but from what I've seen, their color isn't the greatest.

I've also looked at NEC/Eizo for color accuracy when I'm editing photos, but they seem to have rather abysmal latency for gaming.

Am I overthinking this? Do you guys have any suggestions?
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:03 am

IPS screens all the way. Dell and HP have great models, Asus makes some good stuff to. Someone more experienced will come here and recommend you some great models in a minute ;)
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:15 am

Pretty much everything I've read indicates that there is indeed a tradeoff between color accuracy and response time. Haven't dug into it for a few years; maybe things have gotten better. It hasn't really been an issue for me since I don't game or do any critical photo editing; so the last couple of times I've needed a monitor I just bought whatever was on sale.

With your budget, you could actually get two -- a low-latency one for gaming, and something with better color accuracy for the photo editing?
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:44 am

The manufacturer doesn't matter much. The panel type is what's most important. Get an IPS panel. They have the best color accuracy and viewing angles. More specifically, I'd get an 8 bit IPS panel and avoid the 6 bit ones. 6 bit panels (6 + 2 bits gained by dithering = 8 bits advertised) will advertise 16.7 million colors. 8 bit panels (8 + 2 bits gained by dithering = 10 bits advertised) will advertise 1 billion colors. TN panels are in all the cheap monitors (they are also 6 bit + 2 bits gained by dithering) but they advertise low response times around 2ms GTG.

An 8 bit 24" 16:10 monitor will run you $400-$500.
Dell has the U2413 that is very nice and calibrated for color accuracy from the factory. I have 2 of these at work that recently replaced some 22" Dell TN panel monitors. The difference in colors is absolutely amazing. Once you see it in person, you won't put up with TN crap ever again.

As for gaming - in my experience, not many people are sensitive enough to IPS latencies to prefer a TN panel to an IPS. I have a Dell 2005FPW (old 20" 16:10 IPS monitor rated for a 25ms response time) at home that I've gamed on for years. I have no complaints about ghosting or similar side effects. You'd really have to use one first hand to determine if you will have a problem with the slower response time of an IPS panel. Most likely, you'll be fine. There's still a ton of FUD around LCD response times.

Hope this helps!
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:10 am

If you don't wan't something larger than your current 24", but are willing to budget up to $1000, Dell's 24" 4K monitor is currently at $850. You'll need a lot of graphics horsepower to run at native resolution in more demanding games, but it should be great for photo editing work. However, as with most IPS (or IGZO) panels, input lag isn't going to be the best. However, if you are not a serious/competitive twitch gamer, I find concerns about input lag to be somewhat over-emphasized. I have a later revision Dell u3011 (30" IPS) and don't notice input lag when gaming.

If you are willing to move up to something larger, then I suggest waiting for good price on an HP or Dell 30". Yes, the 27" 1440p monitors are cheaper, but you loose the 16:10 aspect ration that you currently are used to on your 24". You should be able to find a 30" from a good brand for ~$1000 if you have a bit of patience (the Dell u3014 was $1000 on the last Dell days of deals)
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:35 am

Current IPS monitors (brand/model is absolutely irrelevant) are awful for FPS gaming purposes (especially if you do not care about non-guaranteed "overclocking" nonsense with very few specific models which do not even have factory warranty), so do TN monitors (for different reasons and different type of games). Same goes for high-DPI monitors if you will be using Windows as primary OS (due to horrible scaling issues with many programs). The BEST current combination for both gaming and non-gaming purposes (especially movie watching) is an MVA-based monitor with "sane" native resolution from Eizo - Eizo Foris FG2421. I've actually used it, there are no better alternatives, the ONLY issue with them is a rather poor quality control resulting in visual anomalies like uneven backlighting which might become very noticeable during movie watching or playing games with dark background... But you might get lucky and get a unit with no defects and large retailers like Newegg (which still has them in stock) are usually good about replacing/refunding during first 30 days ;-) If you're "feeling lucky" and your budget is very flexible - I highly recommend trying these out.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6824136126
Last edited by JohnC on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:38 am

JohnC wrote:are awful for FPS gaming purposes


I wouldn't be so radical about this. Its good enough for gaming for the majority of people.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:43 am

Jon1984 wrote:
JohnC wrote:are awful for FPS gaming purposes

I wouldn't be so radical about this. Its good enough for gaming for the majority of people.

"Good enough" is a very subjective definition and no one should settle for such quantity if the budget allows you to select an objectively better models ;-)

And it's not even about gaming - the Eizo Foris has an (optional) 240Hz refresh rate mode which makes EVERYTHING feel more "natural" with less noticeable blur (very comparable to CRT monitors), it's noticeable even when using mouse (or scrolling window contents) with regular programs outside of the games. The 240Hz mode does introduce extra input lag but it's not noticeable at all outside of few FPS games and you always have an option to switch to native 120Hz mode if you do notice it in some games.
Last edited by JohnC on Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:56 am

JohnC wrote:
Jon1984 wrote:
JohnC wrote:are awful for FPS gaming purposes

I wouldn't be so radical about this. Its good enough for gaming for the majority of people.

"Good enough" is a very subjective definition and no one should settle for such quantity if the budget allows you to select an objectively better models ;-)


So as it is "awful" ;)
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:31 pm

Buy a 144 Hz ASUS Lightboost panel for gaming, and an IPS or VA panel for photos and movies. Your budget should allow for both. Problem settled.

(At least that's what I'd do if I had to. I'm currently a CRT user myself.)
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:28 pm

When I finally upgraded from CRT to an LCD back in 2008, my main gripe wasn't colors, but input lag. That was with one of the faster TN panels at the time, which is probably less than half the amount of input lag of an IPS model. If you're a heavy gamer, I would be hesitant to go straight from a CRT to an IPS. Do a little research before buying, and see if you can find any hands-on reviews that specifically test input lag.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:37 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not getting paid to game, but I do play FPS/twitch games, so I'd think input lag would be an issue for me.

I'd like to stick to 1920x1200 for now--4k would just require me to scale or get an insane graphics card, and I'm just not ready for it.

If I really need to get 2 panels, do you guys have specific recommendations? I don't have a colorimeter, but am happy to play with ICC profiles and OSD calibration. Is it really "any" IPS panel?
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:14 pm

You don't NEED 2 panels - you can have good color accuracy, excellent contrast ratio and blur-free gameplay (without any software hacks) with a single monitor ;-)

If you really want to have 2 panels for different tasks - any IPS model + any TN model with 144Hz refresh rate will do. You still should buy a calibrator, though - while you can just copy someone else's monitor settings and profile it still won't be accurate due to natural variations between each manufactured model. Even Spyder 4 Pro model (which is actually pretty accurate and very easy to use but has a significant chance of being defective) can dramatically improve your monitor output quality, regardless of monitor type.

Also be aware of different firmware versions on recent BenQ monitors if you're thinking about getting any of these, you need a very latest version for best user experience with certain software utility: http://www.blurbusters.com/benq/strobe-utility/
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:45 pm

You can find more monitor reviews on tftcentral.co.uk and prad.de for more specific info.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:46 pm

Unless you are resolute in getting a 144Hz gaming TN with lightboost and GSync, it's probably worth waiting until the technology matures a bit. Sure, anything that doesn't have lightboost is going to look ever so slightly blurry to you after a CRT but it's hardly a big deal, especially now that almost every game on the market has some kind of motion blur by design anyway.

With most IPS screens these days, the grey-to-grey (worst case) response times are 5ms or 6ms. That's like 1/200th of a second and plenty quick enough for ghost/smear-free gaming with beautiful colours and great viewing angles. what really kills gaming on any screen (IPS, VA, PLS or TN panels, it makes no difference) is INPUT LAG.

I had a 27" Samsung 120Hz panel but the input lag was actually higher than my 60Hz IPS screen (no imput lag beause there's no scaler or OSD). It was ebayed because even if it had been capable of 100000000000000Hz, the input lag still ruins gameplay.

Check sites like prad.de or tftcentral.co.uk - they usually have results that include input lag; What's the point in getting a "<1ms TN gaming screen" with 25ms of input lag? (hint: there isn't one!)
Lol, Anotherengineer beat me to it, but yeah - that just reinforces my point - input lag results are extremely important for gaming and these are the only two sites I know that test it properly.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:04 pm

For input lag there's also http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/
Don't know how authoritative the site is.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:24 pm

cynan wrote:If you don't wan't something larger than your current 24", but are willing to budget up to $1000, Dell's 24" 4K monitor is currently at $850.

Today, the UltraSharp UP2414Q is $765 +tax with free shipping:
http://slickdeals.net/f/6892994-24-dell ... 0-recently
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:37 pm

Nevermind the cost of the monitor itself --- unless GPU technology takes a miraculous leap forward, I wouldn't want to have to pay to push all of those pixels.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:43 pm

Could he game at 1920x1080 and do his photo editing and general computing at 3840x2160?
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:50 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:Could he game at 1920x1080 and do his photo editing and general computing at 3840x2160?

Of course he could.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:28 am

LG makes 3 nice IPS super wide 21:9 panels. A $500 29" and a $880 34" both running at 2560x1080 resolution

Their flagship 34" 21:9 monitor runs at a impressive 3440x1440 resolution for around $1500

here is LG's website if you want to take a looksee.
http://www.lg.com/uk/ultrawide/UM95.m?c ... tAodf2oAGg
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:19 am

Meadows wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:Could he game at 1920x1080 and do his photo editing and general computing at 3840x2160?

Of course he could.

I actually think that on higher-dpi displays, non-native resolutions aren't too bad.

I've used 11.6" 1080p ultrabooks from Sony and Acer before, and there's no way that you can run games on their IGP at native resolution. When you're talking about 200ppi displays, dropping down to 720p is still quite decent ppi so it's not the unevenly blurred mess that it can be.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:43 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Meadows wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:Could he game at 1920x1080 and do his photo editing and general computing at 3840x2160?

Of course he could.

I actually think that on higher-dpi displays, non-native resolutions aren't too bad.

I've used 11.6" 1080p ultrabooks from Sony and Acer before, and there's no way that you can run games on their IGP at native resolution. When you're talking about 200ppi displays, dropping down to 720p is still quite decent ppi so it's not the unevenly blurred mess that it can be.

The key is probably to use a resolution which divides evenly into the native resolution. That way the display can just double (or triple) the pixels in both directions, and you don't get scaling artifacts.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:35 am

That is a good rule in general.

I'm trying to say that with a high-enough PPI it doesn't matter if you can't exactly halve the resolution because the scaling artifacts on a high PPI display are nowhere near as bad as they are on lower PPI displays.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:10 pm

meerkt wrote:For input lag there's also http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/
Don't know how authoritative the site is.


According to that site, the lowest latencies you'll find are around some 10ms or so. I found some IPS monitors that measured out to this too, so I didn't think there was much additional inherent latency in the panel itself. (And if the difference is there, it's certainly nowhere near that of PVA latency.) The screen I got was a 1080p panel from HP. Unfortunately, it seems to be 6 bit since I can see the dithering. Anyway, I don't have a link/model number right now.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no other attempt at cataloging display latency that I've seen. A lot of search results you'll find on the topic are laiden with misinformation, such as confusing pixel response time with display latency.
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Re: Finally upgrading from CRT

Postposted on Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:59 pm

well, display latency is a combination of pixel response and input lag.

In my Korean screens for example both prad and tftcentral say zero input lag, but their graphs titled "input lag" have a bar showing 6-10ms which covers the actual pixel response.
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