Roid Report Today

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Roid Report Today

Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:09 pm

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb
Seems they are going to call out some names. Should be interesting.
ormer Sen. George Mitchell has called a 2 p.m. ET news conference for Thursday at the Grand Hyatt hotel to release the results of his committee's 20-month investigation into the use of performance-enhancing drugs in Major League Baseball.

MLB.com will carry Mitchell's news conference live. The report itself will be posted at MLB.com shortly after it is released.

Mitchell is a director of the Boston Red Sox, and was chairman of The Walt Disney Co., the parent of ESPN, at the time Commissioner Bud Selig established the committee on March 30, 2006, charging it with leaving "no stone unturned" in its quest to determine what happened in baseball's so-called steroid era.

How many players will be named in the report is unknown, but as important as the number are the names themselves. In recent years, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, Jose Canseco and the late Ken Caminiti, among others, have all been linked to reports of steroid use.


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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:18 pm

Where I am today is still Wednesday. I think it's Wednesday where Mitchell is, too. Which means the report is tomorrow.
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:20 pm

Never thought of Michigan as being halfway around the world.
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:46 pm

Here's a name that I think ought to be on the list that most people aren't talking about:

Craig Wilson
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:54 pm

idchafee wrote:Here's a name that I think ought to be on the list that most people aren't talking about:

Craig Wilson
I'm not really familiar with him, but why? His career stats have been pretty consistent.
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:19 pm

mattsteg wrote:
idchafee wrote:Here's a name that I think ought to be on the list that most people aren't talking about:

Craig Wilson
I'm not really familiar with him, but why? His career stats have been pretty consistent.

Agreed. His slugging percentage trends downward pretty dramatically, he strikes out a ton, he hasn't been an everyday player since 2004 and he looks to be at the tail end of his career. About all I can see is an argument that he was juiced when he came in and up to 2004, then got off the juice to avoid suspicion. He may have avoided suspicion, but he's also avoided success lately.
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:41 pm

idchafee personally injected him in the buttocks with some vintage 1997 vitamin B12 in the Pirates' clubhouse in 2003/4.
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:49 pm

I was kind of interested in Craig, so I know a bit about his stats....
I think he has some power hitting skills, but beyond that, I don't see very much to indicate roid use. He had a statistical peak year exactly when expected (age 27), and since then has declined slightly (though if given consistent playing time, a .265/20+HR season is pretty likely). If you look at plate-appearances per home run, in particular, you see his numbers were better in both '03 and '01, where he hit a home run every 17ish and 12ish plate appearances, respectively.
I did see an article once where someone looked at statistical outlier seasons, and tried to correlate that with other signs of roid use (body mass increase, various types of injuries)..I can't seem to find it at the moment.

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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:03 pm

just because someone takes roids doesn't mean theyre going to definitely perform better, sure its an unfair advantage but its still possible to suck even if youre taking roids. stats can't answer that question, only drug tests IMO
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:14 pm

blitzy wrote:just because someone takes roids doesn't mean theyre going to definitely perform better, sure its an unfair advantage but its still possible to suck even if youre taking roids. stats can't answer that question, only drug tests IMO
Of course that's true, but that's all most of us have on Wilson and all that's been linked, and I don't see a smking gun there.

The reverse holds true as well...players who have their best seasons as they reach and pass retirement age might be clean.

No way to know either way. We're going to have clean players under suspicion and dirty ones in the hall of fame.
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:18 pm

And thats really the whole fly in the ointment of using stats to indicate 'roid usage. Alex Sanchez was one of the first players busted for steroids. IIRC, his career high for home runs in a season was 4 (and thats with 500+ ABs). When I found out he got busted I was angry, because I feel like he got ripped off.
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:50 pm

UberGerbil wrote:Where I am today is still Wednesday. I think it's Wednesday where Mitchell is, too. Which means the report is tomorrow.


I try to be fair to all nations, no matter what time zone.

So come back tomorrow and you won't have to complain. :wink:
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Postposted on Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:02 pm

mattsteg wrote:Never thought of Michigan as being halfway around the world.
Michiganesia?
Turkina wrote:And thats really the whole fly in the ointment of using stats to indicate 'roid usage. Alex Sanchez was one of the first players busted for steroids. IIRC, his career high for home runs in a season was 4 (and thats with 500+ ABs). When I found out he got busted I was angry, because I feel like he got ripped off.
Moreover, many of the players who have been busted so far have used them to recover from injuries, so their peak 'roid years are actually among their worst statistical years (or years when they barely played at all). And over half of the major league players actually penalized under MLB's drug policy have been pitchers, who apparently use them to recover more quickly between starts; I'm not sure how that's going to be teased out of stats at all.
PRIME1 wrote:
UberGerbil wrote:Where I am today is still Wednesday. I think it's Wednesday where Mitchell is, too. Which means the report is tomorrow.
I try to be fair to all nations, no matter what time zone.

So come back tomorrow and you won't have to complain. :wink:
Except in those other nations you care so much about, it will already be yesterday. ;)
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:32 am

Here's an interesting aspect.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:57 am

Now this is the sort of info I've been interested in seeing. Big names who extended the prime of their careers in huge ways. Especially ones who retire for half-seasons (avoiding testing) then come back at full-strength or stronger midway through the season.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:15 am

elig told the Chicago Tribune that he hadn't seen the report, but he was proud it is coming out.

"People can say Bud was just trying to cover his butt or take care of his legacy or whatever," Selig said, according to the Tribune. "I say [bleep] it. This needed to be done, and now we've done it. I'm just happy it will be out there and we can move on. I'm proud of it."


Proud? Proud that he knew about it all along and did not do [bleep] about it.

I'm sure he know that roids helped make baseball popular again, this report may shock some fans but most people know that Baseball has lost whatever respect it had left after the strike.

Soon they will have batting cage battle royales and tag team base running. :roll:

The agreement with the MLBPA called for one random test per player per year with no punishments that first year. If more than 5 percent of players tested positive in 2003, tougher testing would be implemented with penalties ranging from counseling for a first offense to a max one-year suspension for a fifth violation. If less than 2.5 percent tested positive in two consecutive years, testing would be dropped.


What a f***ing joke.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:36 pm

I was listening to As It Happens a year or two back when this controversy was still hot. The questions the interviewers were really interesting because it compared the world anti-doping governing body's method of dealing with dopers and MLB's stance. I think if you get caught doping in that, then you get a 5 year ban at the minimum, or something.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:45 pm

Nitrodist wrote:I was listening to As It Happens a year or two back when this controversy was still hot. The questions the interviewers were really interesting because it compared the world anti-doping governing body's method of dealing with dopers and MLB's stance. I think if you get caught doping in that, then you get a 5 year ban at the minimum, or something.
It's a lot easier to impose stiff penalties from their position than from that of the MLB (independent, often unknown and/or amateur athletes vs. unionized, high-profile, highly-paid athletes).
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:58 pm

mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:I was listening to As It Happens a year or two back when this controversy was still hot. The questions the interviewers were really interesting because it compared the world anti-doping governing body's method of dealing with dopers and MLB's stance. I think if you get caught doping in that, then you get a 5 year ban at the minimum, or something.
It's a lot easier to impose stiff penalties from their position than from that of the MLB (independent, often unknown and/or amateur athletes vs. unionized, high-profile, highly-paid athletes).


Bwuh? MLB shouldn't/doesn't crack down on performance enhancing drugs that are illegal in the game is because everyone does it?

Yeah, I do see where you're coming from though. That doesn't make it right for MLB to think/act that way though.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:00 pm

Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:I was listening to As It Happens a year or two back when this controversy was still hot. The questions the interviewers were really interesting because it compared the world anti-doping governing body's method of dealing with dopers and MLB's stance. I think if you get caught doping in that, then you get a 5 year ban at the minimum, or something.
It's a lot easier to impose stiff penalties from their position than from that of the MLB (independent, often unknown and/or amateur athletes vs. unionized, high-profile, highly-paid athletes).


Bwuh? MLB shouldn't/doesn't crack down on performance enhancing drugs that are illegal in the game is because everyone does it?

Yeah, I do see where you're coming from though. That doesn't make it right for MLB to think/act that way though.
Huh? Given what you said I can assure you you've either got no clue what I'm talking about or suck horribly at communicating.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:01 pm

mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:I was listening to As It Happens a year or two back when this controversy was still hot. The questions the interviewers were really interesting because it compared the world anti-doping governing body's method of dealing with dopers and MLB's stance. I think if you get caught doping in that, then you get a 5 year ban at the minimum, or something.
It's a lot easier to impose stiff penalties from their position than from that of the MLB (independent, often unknown and/or amateur athletes vs. unionized, high-profile, highly-paid athletes).


Bwuh? MLB shouldn't/doesn't crack down on performance enhancing drugs that are illegal in the game is because everyone does it?

Yeah, I do see where you're coming from though. That doesn't make it right for MLB to think/act that way though.
Huh? Given what you said I can assure you you've either got no clue what I'm talking about or suck horribly at communicating.


You said unionized so...
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:01 pm

Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:I was listening to As It Happens a year or two back when this controversy was still hot. The questions the interviewers were really interesting because it compared the world anti-doping governing body's method of dealing with dopers and MLB's stance. I think if you get caught doping in that, then you get a 5 year ban at the minimum, or something.
It's a lot easier to impose stiff penalties from their position than from that of the MLB (independent, often unknown and/or amateur athletes vs. unionized, high-profile, highly-paid athletes).


Bwuh? MLB shouldn't/doesn't crack down on performance enhancing drugs that are illegal in the game is because everyone does it?

Yeah, I do see where you're coming from though. That doesn't make it right for MLB to think/act that way though.
Huh? Given what you said I can assure you you've either got no clue what I'm talking about or suck horribly at communicating.


You said unionized so...
huh?
...
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:03 pm

mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:I was listening to As It Happens a year or two back when this controversy was still hot. The questions the interviewers were really interesting because it compared the world anti-doping governing body's method of dealing with dopers and MLB's stance. I think if you get caught doping in that, then you get a 5 year ban at the minimum, or something.
It's a lot easier to impose stiff penalties from their position than from that of the MLB (independent, often unknown and/or amateur athletes vs. unionized, high-profile, highly-paid athletes).


Bwuh? MLB shouldn't/doesn't crack down on performance enhancing drugs that are illegal in the game is because everyone does it?

Yeah, I do see where you're coming from though. That doesn't make it right for MLB to think/act that way though.
Huh? Given what you said I can assure you you've either got no clue what I'm talking about or suck horribly at communicating.


You said unionized so...
huh?


They'll strike because they don't want many people being busted & kicked out of baseball and/or have to deal with actual fines/punishments.
Last edited by Nitrodist on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:04 pm

Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Nitrodist wrote:I was listening to As It Happens a year or two back when this controversy was still hot. The questions the interviewers were really interesting because it compared the world anti-doping governing body's method of dealing with dopers and MLB's stance. I think if you get caught doping in that, then you get a 5 year ban at the minimum, or something.
It's a lot easier to impose stiff penalties from their position than from that of the MLB (independent, often unknown and/or amateur athletes vs. unionized, high-profile, highly-paid athletes).


Bwuh? MLB shouldn't/doesn't crack down on performance enhancing drugs that are illegal in the game is because everyone does it?

Yeah, I do see where you're coming from though. That doesn't make it right for MLB to think/act that way though.
Huh? Given what you said I can assure you you've either got no clue what I'm talking about or suck horribly at communicating.


You said unionized so...
huh?


They'll strike because they don't want many people being busted & kicked off/out of baseball and/or actual fines/punishments.
It's not possible for MLB to strike.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:04 pm

mattsteg wrote: It's not possible for MLB to strike.


What's the point of being unionized then?

edit; I also edited my post before to make what I was saying more clear.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:06 pm

Nitrodist wrote: edit; I also edited my post before to make what I was saying more clear.
It might be more clear but it's still not accurate.
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:13 pm

report wrote:Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose Canseco, Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams, Kerry Wood


This makes me very sad. :cry:
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:14 pm

MLB has an agreement with the MLPA, the player's union. The current drug-testing and punishment policy was negotiated on that basis. MLB can't arbitrarily impose new rules without agreement from the union (which has, among other things, resisted the kind of "invasive" testing -- ie drawing blood -- that is the only way to discover certain drugs such as HGH). Of course, individual players have contracts with their teams which is another difference between a pro sport and something like the Olympics. And many players have the financial resources to clog a team, or MLB, with lawsuits if they took action on their own (or tried to enforce a more stringent set of penalties: even if MLB/MLPA agreed to, say, a year's suspension for a second or third offense, you could imagine a player suing to block them carrying it out since that represents millions of dollars in lost wages).
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:15 pm

For your reading pleasure (6.47MB)

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
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Postposted on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:19 pm

UberGerbil wrote:MLB has an agreement with the MLPA, the player's union. The current drug-testing and punishment policy was negotiated on that basis. MLB can't arbitrarily impose new rules without agreement from the union (which has, among other things, resisted the kind of "invasive" testing -- ie drawing blood -- that is the only way to discover certain drugs such as HGH). Of course, individual players have contracts with their teams which is another difference between a pro sport and something like the Olympics. And many players have the financial resources to clog a team, or MLB, with lawsuits if they took action on their own (or tried to enforce a more stringent set of penalties: even if MLB/MLPA agreed to, say, a year's suspension for a second or third offense, you could imagine a player suing to block them carrying it out since that represents millions of dollars in lost wages).
I'll add that it's certainly in the players' interest to block anything that might interfere with their livelihood. They'll probably have a higher standard of what's acceptable in terms of avoiding false-positives, even if they were amenable to expanded testing.

Really though, who the heck wants to have dudes coming at them and poking them with needles? Regardless of guilt or innocence regarding drugs, there's still a value to privacy - it's foolish to give it up unless you need to.
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