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Do you have your ram in dual-channel mode? Onboard video is one of the few times where it makes a difference.

I had it in dual-channel until I put in the other stick. Then I turned the on-board off and put in the GS.

I use CAD more than anything else and CAD loves ram so the 2gigs have to stay.

I plan on changing some more stuff in a few months anyways and FINALLY building the HTPC i'v been meaning to. That's where the on-board will really shine I think. DVI-HDMI.

The reasoning behind the 1gb of higher-end ram over 2gb of value ram is that the higher end stuff is cheaper with that rebate. Also, the great majority of games do not require 2gb of ram, or even see much of a performance difference from 2gb. While that's quickly changing, it'd be a better idea to save the money on a second gig, make a better machine, and get the second gig when you need it.

Now that it isn't ~1am and I'm not stressing over a German test (passed it =D) and angry at the buggyness of the latest Opera beta, let me spend more than 15 minutes compiling a $600 box. This time, I'm going to assume that Oblivion is second priority to the other games, since I factored that in WAY too much in the past machine I recommended. I actually did that out of spite for trying to get oblivion to run acceptably at 1280x1024 on a Pentium 4 (UGH..) so I went a little overkill on the proc so it wouldn't be a problem @ all. I have yet to try a 3200+ on Oblivion, but since you're not buying a top-end card anyways, it shouldn't matter too much. A 1.8ghz 3000+ runs oblivion like crap from what I've experienced. I guess you can make it playable by downloading that mod that makes grass and such much less dense, textures smaller, etc, but toning the game down for the CPU really kills the immersion.

Mobo: $69 Biostar T-force 6100 - 939 Micro ATX
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813138264

Ram: $74 Corsair XMS 1GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820145488

Proc: $154 AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6819103535

HD: $90 Western Digital Caviar SE16 250GB SATA 3.0GB/S
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6822144701

Video: $169 eVGA GeForce 7600GT
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130283

$556 total. I'll leave the PSU and case up to you, since I don't know if you're going to end up getting an ATX case, or some weird size..

If I can make a few recommendations:
Abit KN8 (passive cooling) $106.08

MSI 7600GS $120

I'm just thinking that if you're getting a vid-card anyways, there's no need for a mobo with on-board video.

So with Kurama's suggestions, that's $544

Cooler Master Centurion 5 Case $61

FSP 400W PSU $47

That's $653 total.

I really don't think a $110 mobo's home is in a $600 machine. That just cuts way too much off of the potential money spent on video, processor, and ram. Since it doesn't seem like it'll be overclocked, an expensive mobo really isn't a necessity. I don't think having onboard video will kill anyone, also, since the only real issues I've had with onboard video is OS compatability/conflicts (which XP won't have)

As far as that video card goes, it doesn't even list the memory or core clock speeds, and it's 115 with a game bundled. Generally, that means they're trying to get rid of it for a reason.. Oh, and it's passively cooled which means running games like oblivion on it will fry it fast. Aren't 7600GS's AGP anyways?

I've never used an FSP PSU if I remember correctly, but I've always stuck with Enermax, Seasonic, and Antec. That's really not my bag of chips though, so someone else should find a PSU to suit this comp. I can find a good PSU, but I really don't know how to determine if what I get is overkill or not..

You really seem to equate price with quality. Is it that hard for you to believe one can get some good stuff with a nice, low-but-not-too-low price?

Kurama wrote:

As far as that video card goes, it doesn't even list the memory or core clock speeds, and it's 115 with a game bundled. Generally, that means they're trying to get rid of it for a reason.. Oh, and it's passively cooled which means running games like oblivion on it will fry it fast. Aren't 7600GS's AGP anyways?

The 7600GS is a downclocked version of 7600GT with DDR2 RAM (the GT is higher clocked with GDDR3 RAM). It is nVidia's assault on that $110-140 market. Attack ATi where it hurts most. Those X1600/X1300 can't a chance at all at that price point.

Kurama wrote:

I've never used an FSP PSU if I remember correctly, but I've always stuck with Enermax, Seasonic, and Antec. That's really not my bag of chips though, so someone else should find a PSU to suit this comp. I can find a good PSU, but I really don't know how to determine if what I get is overkill or not..

FSP is huge in the OEM business, their stuff may be lower priced, but definitely of good quality. If you don't care about modular cabling, lights or what not this brand is the one to get.

You really seem to equate price with quality. Is it that hard for you to believe one can get some good stuff with a nice, low-but-not-too-low price?

You're the one recommending he spends $110 on a Mobo that will perform essentially the same as the cheaper one I recommended, so I believe you've done so yourself also.. I'm actually a firm believer that cheap can be good, but keep in mind this thread is asking for a $600 comp that can run OBLIVION at an acceptable level. That game tolls systems a lot, so getting a passively cooled video card for it is just plain stupid. Those cards have their purposes, but intense gaming isn't that purpose. I'd recommend passively cooled machines for someone wanting to run vista without spending a lot of money, since that'll handle it like a champ and be very conveniently silent at the same time.

Looking at it with this computer as a whole, the cheaper Biostar motherboard with the 7600GT will tear the more expensive Abit board with a 7600GS a new one. In motherboards, you get the worst price to performance ratios when not overclocking at enthusiast levels. The majority of people are content with a basic mobo that everything they have plugs into it, nothing explodes, and the drivers/bios are usable. The difference between a 7600GS and GT is quite significant, and the cards are like night and day, despite having the same GPU's.

Oh, and that PSU is pretty good from what I've been able to research and will work with this rig. Pretty good price for what it can do also.

I'm recommending a $100 mobo that costs $107 after shipping is added, like I do all the prices I list.

Kurama. . . . I have the passively cooled 7600GS . . .I have Oblivion. I know full well that the game runs VERY smoothly on that card.

I recommend a board without the on-board video because every time I see a mobo review that's mATX vs. ATX, the mATX is slower in evrything.

Midnight has not mentioned anything about overclocking. Nor am I trying to convince anyone to buy anything I list. Her friend has games that the 7600GS can handle without added noise. Quiet is a very nice thing when it comes to background noise.

I hate to do this...

Kurama wrote:

You're the one recommending he spends $110 on a Mobo that will perform essentially the same as the cheaper one I recommended, so I believe you've done so yourself also..

Check your facts first before accusing someone. Please re-read the entire thread, the only recommendation that I have made was a Geforce 6150/6100 board.

Flying Fox wrote:

The Biostar 6100/6150 boards are the best overclocking boards using that chipset with the stability to boot.

And that is a $70 board.

Kurama wrote:

A 1.8ghz 3000+ runs oblivion like crap from what I've experienced. I guess you can make it playable by downloading that mod that makes grass and such much less dense, textures smaller, etc, but toning the game down for the CPU really kills the immersion.

Ummm...the grass and textures and stuff have almost nothing to do with the CPU; it's all on the video card.
That said, looking at Anandtech or FiringSquad's CPU comparisons in Oblivion reveal that the CPU can impact framerate, but it won't be the limiter unless you're running a video setup that costs roughly as much as this entire computer will. So a 3000+ ought to do fine, especially if it's overclocked.

MidnightFrost1701, the secret to some threads is to only read the first page, before things degrade to tit-for-tat

I appologize for making a $10 error, but I had about 30 tabs of firefox open, 4 of which where motherboards. Being bombarded with questions about SLI on ventrilo, I clicked to the tab, punched in the number (100.99 is easily mistakable for 109 in a rush) and solved the guy on vent's problem before finishing my post. Either way, the Biostar seems to be a solid board, and the $100 one doesn't seem like it will make enough of a difference to merit getting a worse video card.

The processor deal has been dealt with, I am no longer recommending the 3500. A 3000+ could run fine overclocked, but the thread OP isn't making this computer for himself, and for the sake of not becoming someone's tech support, I would not recommend overclocking it. Why? If a problem occurs, it's your fault. I'm a little iffy on it running well on a 3000+ unoverclocked, since Oblivion does a great job of tolling my 3700+ overclocked.

As for the GS vs. GT, it seems like this computer will be used for gaming. Sound from the game makes sound from the computer unnoticable, and that would be incredibly redundant anyways, since IIRC, the power supply you recommended was commented on as loud. Generally, unless your PSU is dead quiet, the video card's fan is drowned out by it and unnoticable. So, with that ruled out, why would you want to sacrifice speed and cooling in exchange for a barely noticable decrease in noise when the better card fits the budget?

I don't mind to make this sound like a flame war or anything, but cards get really hot from the toll Oblivion puts on them is quite a lot. It'll fry, especially if clocked to 7600GT speeds. Why are we even debating this? The 7600GT is obviously the better card anyways, and it fits within the budget fine. The performance gain by going with the GT is much more than getting the more expensive motherboard.

Off Topic: What settings and FPS are you getting on Oblivion with the GS? I'm not amazed at all that it can run oblivion with decent FPS without knowing that. I can run oblivion fine at 800x600 on a 9550.

Midnightfrost . . . . I wish you and your friend happy hardware hunting on her new system . . . .

My advice is to reuse as everything but the motherboard, processor, RAM and graphics card and replace those. Here are some suggestions. I am looking at them for a PC build I am planning to do.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDe ... ode=322782
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDe ... e=85016-47

Have fun picking out the processor and motherboard though; I myself am planning on going with Conroe and a Conroe compatible motherboard the moment Conroe hits the market so I cannot make any budget suggestions here.

MidnightFrost1701 wrote:

So a couple of questions I have based on some of the more recent posts:

1. Is going for 2GB of value RAM a better bet than 1GB of higher quality? Flip-mode suggested 2GB of Buffalo value RAM for $144, but Kurama recommended against value RAM.

2. Should my friend definitely spring for a separate (and hence more expensive) PSU rather than getting a PSU that comes with the case? Are those no-name PSUs with the cases that likely to die?

3. For an investment that needs to last maybe 3 years, is she better off springing for a better processor now (say, the Athlon 64 3200+ rather than the 3000+) and using the onboard video in this Biostar TForce 6100 socket 939 mobo until she can afford a better video card, or should she go for the cheaper processor and put that money towards a better video card now? OR, use the onboard video until more money appears, go for the cheaper processor, and use the extra $40 towards a good PSU (see #2)?

3a. Or none of the above (please elaborate, keeping the $600-$800 total price range in mind).

Value Ramm is thwe **** dude. the expensive stuff is just a waste for her. 2Gb is better...or maby go with 1.5Gb?

If you do build one then use an EPoX board. they are my brand of choice and are usually cheaper than the rest of the pack with the same features.

I'll second the 7600GS. don't get a cheaper CPU. get atleast a 2.4Ghz if you can for Oblivion, unless it's just too much more than a 2.2.

Oh and go ahead and sticxk with the provided PSU. if you were going higherend with the CPU and vid card then I'd recommend you get a name brand PSU.

Alright, so here's the tentative "final" build (case subject to change, but this is the choice for now):

ASPIRE X-CRUISE -GN Green Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$69

BIOSTAR TForce6100-939 Socket 939 NVIDIA GeForce 6100 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
$69

eVGA 256-P2-N554-AX Geforce 7600GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card
$160 after $20 MIR

FSP Group (Fortron Source) AX450-PN, 12cm FAN, version 2.0, 2 SATA, PCI Express, 450W Power Supply
$51

BUFFALO Select 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model DD4003-K2G
$147

AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 2000MHz HT Socket 939 Processor Model ADA3200BPBOX
$154

Seagate / 160GB / 7200 / 8MB / Ultra ATA-100 / EIDE / OEM / Hard Drive and eTrust Internet Security Suite 2006
$30 after $115 MIRs

Total plus shipping & after MIRs: $719.32

So my main questions are:

1. Will this PSU be sufficient? I myself have an FSP PSU (based on the recommendations of this forum roughly a year ago), and I've had no problems with it. But does it have enough power for this build?

2. Is Seagate a good brand? Based on recommendations from my step-father (who used to build computers), I've only ever used Western Digital. So I know nothing about Seagate. Also, should the fact that it's OEM be a deterrent? The mobo seems to have the cord, but is the software really necessary?

I have used Seagates without problems. Nothing wrong with buying OEM.

If you are big into rebates newegg has corsair xms 2gb for $138 after $50 rebate.

I would save $40 and just get the 3000+

1. That FSP PSU will be great. They make great PSUs, and that one will handle the spec'd system with aplomb.

2. I've had quite a few Seagates and they're just as good as any other.

3. I recommend the x1800GTO over the 7600GT. Better performance, similar price, and will do AA & HDR at the same time. I have the 7600 FYI.

The system looks really good.

I agree with flip-mode over the quality of the PSP PSUs but as far as ATI is concerned, I suggest that your friend stay away from them. I can say from experience that their drivers and reference designs are a disaster waiting to happen.

Shining Arcanine wrote:

I agree with flip-mode over the quality of the PSP PSUs but as far as ATI is concerned, I suggest that your friend stay away from them. I can say from experience that their drivers and reference designs are a disaster waiting to happen.

Fanboyism? You can run ATI's drivers, which have been more stable and user friendly in my experience, without the bloated Catalyst. Or you can run the Catalyst minus the bloat if you want, but it requires activating a service every time you want to change anything.

Never used an X1800GTO, so I won't comment on the reference design. I've only ever heard good about that line though.

After checking out another web site's head to head tests of the 7600GT and the x1800GTO, it seems like it's worth the extra $10 to go with the x1800GTO. Newegg has it with a rebate. So that card with all the same other parts listed above would bring the grand total to $729.62 with shipping and after rebates. I'm making final recommendations to my friend, so this is the time for any last minute warnings/suggestions...

None, it's good.

flip-mode wrote:

None, it's good.

seconded!!!

lex-ington wrote:

flip-mode wrote:

None, it's good.

seconded!!!

Here are your next steps:
1. Build it!
2. Fold
3. Both of you join more forum discussions