Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

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Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:36 pm

Hi there again.
I believe there a major major design flaw on almost all motherboards out there.
I talking about the PCI express slot 2.0 and the 3.0 version.
There always a PCI Express x1 slot or sometime a PCI slot in front of the PCI Express 2.0 or 3.0 version.
WHY??
Almost all graphic card from the $70 and upward usually take two slots. One for the graphic card itself and the other slot space for it fans. What the point of having those pci express x1 or PCI slot if you are unable to use it at all. That doesn't help with the cooling system when you have two graphic Cards right beside each other.
I even saw highest end Graphic card that take up three slots.
Does the designer of these motherboards even put these computer together themselves?
let me know thank
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:42 pm

Dual slot graphics cards aren't the only thing people plug into their PCI slots. They are just maximizing the total possible options. If it doesn't get used then it doesn't get used.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:50 pm

Most motherboards do have a PCIe X1 slot below the first PCIe X16 slot. Having the PCIe X1 slot there lets you use it if you don't have a dual-slot graphics card. Not every PC has a massive gaming graphics card installed, you know.

If you do have a dual-slot graphics card, at least you're only covering up a PCIe X1 slot instead of a more useful PCIe X16 slot. With a motherboard like my gaming PC's, I've still got two more PCIe X16 slots available even when the first PCIe X16 slot and the PCIe X1 slot are occupied by my graphics card. One of these holds a sound card. In my HTPC, I'm using the graphics built into the processor and the motherboard's integrated audio through HDMI, so the only slot occupied is that PCIe X1 slot, which holds my TV tuner card.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:07 am

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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:18 am

My board goes:

x1
x16 (loses half its lanes if the x8 slot is used)
x1
x1
x8 (only active if a card is inserted)
PCI
PCI

This isn't an atypical arrangement, and while I do slightly resent losing the x1 slot blocked by the graphics card, we are well and truly into "first world problems" territory here.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:29 am

Good question, but as has been pointed out in this thread, "Almost all motherboards" are not destined for use with double wide graphics cards.

Why do motherboards ship with an x1 slot below the x16 slot? The simple answer is "Flexibility"... if its there for you to use, you may use it.


Now, don't stop asking questions--that is after all, how you learn seek answers and increase your geek quotient. :) But take a moment to think through the alternatives to your question.

[*] If they replaced the x1 slot with an x16 slot below another x16 slot - Wouldn't you be here asking "why are they placing a second graphics card slot below the first?! I cant use it if I use a double wide!"

[*]If they left a blank space beneath the x16 slot (and some motherboards do), wouldn't someone else who uses a single slot graphics card say "why are they leaving a blank space below where I could use another card?! This is a waste of space!"

[*]And what if they're like me? Given the prevalence of dual slot coolers on mid to high-performance graphics cards these days, I want an EXTRA SLOT's worth of space after the two taken up by the graphics card. I want the space for air to flow in to feed the fan, I dont want one graphics card trying to breathe in the next card if I use a dual-card setup. Don't you think I've been looking at current motherboard designs and asking "Why the hell are they putting the two x16 slots so close together? They should stick more x1 slots or empty space between them!"

But you can imagine...that wont do for everyone, especially people trying to cram 3 or 4 GPUs in their systems.




....the real answer from all this is that everyone has different needs from their motherboard. The best thing Mobo makers can do is to try and populate all (or most) of the available expansion card space with slots, then vary the arrangement throughout their line, hoping that each of those arrangements will align with the way a couple of different people want to build their system. After all, you may not need an x1 slot there, but its much easier for you to not use a slot you don't need, then it is for someone who needs a slot to not have it at all.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:51 am

And let's not forget there's nothing stopping you from putting in an x1 card in your spare x16 slot.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:15 am

Not putting a slot there at all would piss off some percentage of the people who don't have double-wide GPUs, since it would just be wasted space. Also, when the motherboard is micro-ATX there is a very limited amount of space for slots.

There are also a lot of PCs out there whose primary use is not gaming. These PCs will have a single-wide GPU, or use the integrated graphics (if the motherboard has it).
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:03 am

Then there are the i/o fetishists that will use the integrated graphics and use their x16/8/4 slots for crazy high-end raid cards. Not my cup of tea, but I have seen some really crazy setups that can copy full BD iso's in less than a minute without a single ssd in the system.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:06 am

yokem55 wrote:Then there are the i/o fetishists that will use the integrated graphics and use their x16/8/4 slots for crazy high-end raid cards. Not my cup of tea, but I have seen some really crazy setups that can copy full BD iso's in less than a minute without a single ssd in the system.

You can build a pretty nice file server on the cheap this way too.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:07 am

I can't even remember the last time I saw a consumer mobo have more than three expansion slots filled. And that was an sli setup with a SB Card in it.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:09 am

Graphics, non-realtek sound, wireless-n dual-band card, TV Tuner, That's just the slots. I also have the extra usb ports on a bracket using an internal header.
I think most HTPC's are short of space, given that few motherboards have TV-tuners and most people want decent sound from their HTPC, as well as a decent passively-cooled GPU.

I think most consumers could get by with no slots. SNB integrated graphics on a motherboard that includes a simple wifi adapter probably fits the needs of 90% of the world.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:15 am

Chrispy_ wrote:Graphics, non-realtek sound, wireless-n dual-band card, TV Tuner, That's just the slots. I also have the extra usb ports on a bracket using an internal header.
I think most HTPC's are short of space, given that few motherboards have TV-tuners and most people want decent sound from their HTPC, as well as a decent passively-cooled GPU.

At least you can get most peripherals (pretty much anything except GPU) in USB versions.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:11 pm

I've actually considered moving my graphics card from the top x16 slot to the bottom "graphics" slot, which will reduce its bandwidth to x8 but block a worthless (to me) PCI slot instead of a potentially useful x1 PCIe slot.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:45 pm

FuturePastNow wrote:I've actually considered moving my graphics card from the top x16 slot to the bottom "graphics" slot, which will reduce its bandwidth to x8 but block a worthless (to me) PCI slot instead of a potentially useful x1 PCIe slot.

Then again, you could just use the x8 slot you have for any X1 or x4 component you pick up.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:51 pm

pikaporeon wrote:
FuturePastNow wrote:I've actually considered moving my graphics card from the top x16 slot to the bottom "graphics" slot, which will reduce its bandwidth to x8 but block a worthless (to me) PCI slot instead of a potentially useful x1 PCIe slot.

Then again, you could just use the x8 slot you have for any X1 or x4 component you pick up.


That's sort of my point- the moment I stick any card in the x8 slot, even an x1 card, the x16 also becomes an x8 slot. So if I ever need another slot, I lose nothing by moving the video card, and in fact gain another x1 slot.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:49 am

Aren't x16 slots overkill anyway? I read somewhere (either here, Guru or over at AT) that even a GTX580 loses so little performance sitting in an x8 slot that the difference could easily be down to inaccuracies in measurement.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:58 am

Chrispy_ wrote:Aren't x16 slots overkill anyway? I read somewhere (either here, Guru or over at AT) that even a GTX580 loses so little performance sitting in an x8 slot that the difference could easily be down to inaccuracies in measurement.

It was [H]:
It's not exactly an apples-to-apples example for your situation, but with 2560x1600 resolution, even dropping down to an x4 config with SLI the performance loss is really marginal (2-5%). That's x4, not x8, and SLI is far more demanding on the interface than a single card, because there's a lot of crosstalk between the cards too.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:29 pm

Me and one of my friends had this discussion a while back. At the end of the day, if there is a way around it just get around it. Most of the complaints made by consumers are not heard. These companies are there for one reason" MONEY". So if they have to brand items or advertise in a certain way, they will do it. like the saying goes," It is what it is".
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:14 pm

TL;DR

If no one told you why the first PCI-E is almost always a lil further from the CPU than it could be (i said almost since some boards just have the slots as you wished them i.e. first slot being PCI-E x16) is to maximize compatibility with mainstream tower coolers.

All the mobos that have the first PCI-E closer to the CPU socket have a limited list of compatible tower coolers, it's an inconvient that mobo manufacturers have traditionally tried to avoid.
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Re: Major Design Flaw on almost ALL motherboards.

Postposted on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:41 pm

I'm not sure about it being silly in and of itself. What IS silly, though, is that motherboard makers do not notch x1/x4/x8 slots. It seems wrong, but you can put a x16 graphics card in a x1 slot. The PCI-E spec allows that and that's part of why it's so awesome. Yet, almost all motherboard manufacturers do not notch their smaller PCI-E slots so you can plug bigger cards into them. It's just stupid.

Asus used to notch their slots, but they don't anymore.
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