AMD Upgrade Path

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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:02 pm

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Last edited by clone on Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:39 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Yeats wrote:I think if AMD has its way, eventually software would seamlessly use the more effective path, "GPU" or "CPU", except the line between the two would be blurred.

That's a really huge "if" there. With x86-64 being the one notable exception, AMD doesn't get to drive new software technologies into the x86 space. And x86-64 only gained a foothold because Intel made a conscious decision not to make a 64-bit version of x86 due to worries about it potentially cannibalizing sales of Itanium.


I'm with JBI- it's a HUGE 'if'. Intel seems determined to meet AMD in the 'APU' barn by the time compute becomes mainstream, and it's quite likely that Intel will continue to have the upper hand in performance. GCN rocks, but I'd expect Intel to be able to come up with a better compute processor; hell, they could just start adding Xeon Phi arrays to their CPUs, which will accomplish much the same thing, and would likely be a better fit for high-end solutions than say AMD putting GCN clusters into Opterons.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:44 pm

Airmantharp wrote:I'm with JBI- it's a HUGE 'if'.

It might be possible with OpenCL or other tech in the future. It seems like that's the way things are going.

I don't know how long it'll take obviously, but still.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:25 pm

I was speccing up a cheap gaming rig for someone and for the first time in ages considered an FX processor over an i3 or a i5.

Whilst there are no ports of games from the next-gen consoles yet, I expect games will use at least four threads in the future. That makes even i5's look underpowered (though I'm sure they'll just power through for a while with great per-thread performance)
I'd pay for an i7 if the 50% extra price yielded anywhere close to that much extra performance. For the newest game engines at least, it looks like AMD's SMT is worth far more than Intel's HT.

Here's a BF4 benchmark, to be taken with a HUGE HANDFUL OF SALT, but there are a few things worth pointing out:
1) The 2600K is only 6.5% faster than the 2500K, and 3% of that boost is from clockspeed alone.
2) The i3 with only two competent threads completely fails, whilst the supposedly inferior FX-4xxx options are doing way better because all four threads are fully loaded for a change.

The minute you're not bottlenecked by a single thread, Intel's HT is worthless against AMD's SMT. It's why the AMD's look reasonable in that admittedly cherry-picked example, but I believe game engines are going to have to work around threading much better than ever before - Both of the next-gen consoles have many weak cores and a game enging cannot afford to waste 80% or more of the console's resources because of poor task-threading.

However, the reason I posted my thinking behind AMD and Intel is because even if I wanted to buy AMD, the choice of motherboards completely blows, especially at uATX or mITX.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:09 pm

Anyone with a 2500/2600k CPU is not going to be running it under 4ghz unless they live in 90f + desert conditions with no AC.

I think the best cpu buy right now if you do not overclock is a IVY bridge based Intel Xeon E3-1230 V2 Ivy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo) 4 x 256KB L2 Cache 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1155 69W Quad-Core CPU. 8 pretty fast threads for 235$ With IVY bridge CPU's letting you up the blck up from 100 to a decent 105mhz x 33 is 3465mhz If ASrock or ASUS's Z77 multicore enhancement works like it does on other turbo CPU's it will run at 3700mhz on all 4 cores. Even if multicore enhancement does not work on the Xeon it will run at 3.4ghz.....still a great CPU for 235$

I want this Intel Xeon Processor E3-1270 (8M Cache, 3.40 GHz 3.80GHz Turbo) cpu from starmicron for 175$ for my HTPC in my bedroom ....that is a heck of a good price!!! for my h67 based HTPC!! http://starmicroinc.net/-p-2544.html They also have the Intel Xeon Processor E3-1245 (8M Cache, 3.30 GHz 3.70GHz Turbo) for 175$ also. The 1270 has no IGP but the 1245 does, Still both are priced great. Considering SVP Smooth Video Player can bring my 2600k to its knees let alone the i3 2125 I have in it now. I know this since I transplanted my 2600k into my HTPC to play with since I had to change The TIM on my cooler. Arctic silver dropped my temps a few degrees since my old paste was a wee bit dried out after almost 3 years. Heck anyone looking for a nice cpu upgrade from a couple year old i3 2120 sandy bridge cpu its a great buy and will definitely be a nice upgrade for only $175 since the performance difference between haswell, Ivy and Sandy is not that much at all.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:23 pm

I just had a painful realisation thanks to a friend. Due to the obvious holidays, prices are unlikely to move in my favour throughout December (at least not move lower any further), and the Kaveri news only mentioned 4 cores (rather than 4 "modules") sadly, so I'll probably order the FX CPU later this week after yet some more undue deliberation.

Should I find anything extraordinary, I'll post it here, although I assume everyone's already familiar with the nooks. And the crannies.

Thanks for the effort, though.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:50 pm

AM3+ is a dead end. The perfect indication of that is AMD canceled their successor chipset for the platform (1090FX). I'm afraid native PCI-e 3.0 and native USB 3 will never see the light of day on AM3+.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:19 am

Deanjo wrote:AM3+ is a dead end. The perfect indication of that is AMD canceled their successor chipset for the platform (1090FX). I'm afraid native PCI-e 3.0 and native USB 3 will never see the light of day on AM3+.


What annoys me most is that games will soon come out that really take advantage of more threads - They'll *have* to take advantage of multiple threads, because the eight cores in the new consoles are pretty weak individually.

For that reason, I find it annoying/shortsighted that FM1, FM2 and FM2+ have a history of dual-cores (or four-module) at best.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:52 am

Chrispy_ wrote:For that reason, I find it annoying/shortsighted that FM1, FM2 and FM2+ have a history of dual-cores (or four-module) at best.

I think you meant to reverse that (quad-core/two-module). :wink:

I imagine it is an issue of both die area and thermals. GPUs have a lot of transistors; and with the 8-core FX chips already bumping up against 125W TDP there's just no headroom left to stuff more cores onto the APUs.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:55 am

Yeats wrote:Anyway, I've had positive experiences with FX-8350's. My own is clocked at 5 ghz across all 8 cores @ 1.52v. My brother's is at 4.8 ghz @ 1.5v, and my g/f's is at 4.5 ghz @ default voltage. Everything runs swimmingly on all 3 systems, but of course your computing needs will be different and possibly more demanding than mine.

I take that to means said systems are under water?

Chrispy_ wrote:...it looks like AMD's SMT is worth far more than Intel's HT.

Well technically it's not SMT because AMD does actually have 8 physical integer cores in the FX.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:00 am

jihadjoe wrote:Well technically it's not SMT because AMD does actually have 8 physical integer cores in the FX.

Yup. Basically, you've got full SMP for integer workloads, but something closer to SMT if the code is dominated by floating point.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:36 pm

In my mind, if you had two unrelated threads to run on a single "SMT-capable core" - whether that's an intel core with HT or a Piledriver module with two "cores"

Intel's solution runs 15% faster than one core processing both threads sequentially.
AMD's solution runs about 75% faster than one core processing both threads sequentially.

Is that rule of thumb still reasonable given typical consumer workloads? If a 2+1 module was really as good as two dedicated cores, there wouldn't have been such a fuss over the "core count" of Bulldozer at launch.

This whole thing could have been avoided if AMD just marketed it differently. Their quads would be competing with Intel's quads and you wouldn't have had the fiasco that ensued over a 4GHz Eight-core AMD getting WTFPWNED by a 3.4GHz quad-core Intel i7.

Idiots doing back-of-napkin math see that as Intel winning by at least a factor of [4.0 x 8]/[3.4 x 4] and then assume that every Intel "core" is worth 2.5 AMD "cores", ergo AMD are completely worthless, which is only the case in artificially-contrived synthetic tests.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:27 pm

Well technically it's not SMT because AMD does actually have 8 physical integer cores in the FX.


Well, if you compare to Intel and even past AMD designs, it's not even eight worthy INT cores you're looking at. Bulldozer has two INT cores which each are a lot weaker than Phenom's and Intel's. Bulldozer's shared FP core is also weaker than Intel's FP core. Lastly, don't forget that AMD's front end (Fetch/Decode) per module is, superficially, at the very best, as fast as Intel's per core.

To summarize (skipping over a lot of manufacturer-specific features like microOp-cache and all):
  • Per core, AMD K8/K10 (aka Phenom) can fetch and decode three instructions simultatenously. A Bulldozer module can only muster four, or two per "core". Intel has been sitting at four per core since i7.
  • Per core, AMD K8/K10 can process three INT instructions simultatenously. A Bulldozer module gets stuck at four again, or two per "core". Intel has had three each since Core2, but improved to four with Haswell.
  • Per core, AMD K8/K10 can process two 128bit (SSE2+) instructions simultatenously. A Bulldozer core has two 128bit units per module (SSE2+), and can combine these to process one 256bit AVX instruction. Since Haswell, Intel has two 256bit units per core.
  • Intel's L1 cache (part of the core too) transfer rate (I refuse to use the word bandwidth for stuff not related to frequency domains) is twice as high as AMD's. Intel's L2 is a lot better too.

So, yeah, so much for eight cores. As previously stated, even a whole module can't keep up with an Intel core.

Sources (among others):
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4955/the- ... 0-tested/2
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6355/inte ... itecture/6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_10h
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldozer_ ... chitecture)
http://techreport.com/review/24879/inte ... reviewed/8
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:09 pm

jihadjoe wrote:
Yeats wrote:Anyway, I've had positive experiences with FX-8350's. My own is clocked at 5 ghz across all 8 cores @ 1.52v. My brother's is at 4.8 ghz @ 1.5v, and my g/f's is at 4.5 ghz @ default voltage. Everything runs swimmingly on all 3 systems, but of course your computing needs will be different and possibly more demanding than mine.

I take that to means said systems are under water?

They don't have to be, but past 1.5 V it's pretty likely.

A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation reveals that assuming a TDP of 125 W, a factory voltage of 1.4 V and a factory frequency of 4000 MHz, an FX-8350 overclocked to 5000 MHz using 1.52 V would go on to have an approximate TDP of ~185 W. Basically, 25% more performance using 50% more power.


I'm less ambitious, and besides, first I want to see how far I can undervolt it while still keeping stock speeds. Some online forums report success at voltages as low as 1.3 V (TDP: ~108 W) at stock frequencies.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:42 pm

Strait off the Rumor Board: http://wccftech.com/rumor-amd-phenom-iv ... patbility/

I definitely think this is a fable that I hope to be true but I highly doubt it. AMD Phenom IV X12 170 “Baeca” 25nm CPU Leaked – Has 12 Cores, 6 GHz Core Clock and AM4 Socket Compatbility. I find this very hard to believe, BUT we can all hope it is true that this is not a false assumption, furthermore the Phenom IV X12 170 processor would outdo the 8 core FX-series featuring 12 cores and a 6 GHz base clock speed. All of this within a 75W TDP package. The CPU would also feature a L3 cache of 24 MB. Sounds pretty dang far-fetched to me. They even include a CPUz shot, but we all know how easily they can be manufactured.

To be honest I hope it turns out to be fact but??? But I am not holding my breath on that deal.

I still wish they would tweak a Phenom II type core to have 8 true cores with a much improved memory controller, perhaps a quad channel memory controller since that makes the most sense with the current 28nm process being pretty mature I think clockspeeds could be around 4.5ghz. I mean how hard could it be to double up a shrunk down phenom 2 core with some improvements to the p[henom core in general for more single core performance along with the tweaking to the to the memory controller/controllers to reduce latency double the memory channels, tweak and shrink up a pretty good core to make it and wee bit better clock for clock compared to the 45nm phenoms. Even if they had to put 2 of the original designed 4 core Phenom II cores side by side with one of the Phenom modules upside down so the memory controller could be on the opposite side of the CPU so it would have a memory configuration like the Sandy/Ivy Bridge E motherboard with 2 or 4 memory slots on either side of the CPU socket like the 2011 motherboards.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:04 pm

I would take that rumor with one of these. But, if I may put on my "wishful thinking" hat for a moment:

- So if they're working on a Phenom IV, what happened to the Phenom III? Is there hope for AM3+ users who want a last gasp upgrade after all, or are they just skipping III for some reason? (Or maybe the FX series was originally supposed to be called Phenom III?)

- The increased pin count could mean support for more memory channels (triple or quad).

- I wonder if it will still be a pin-based socket, or if it is LGA based like Opteron (and Intel).

- Why in the world would they resurrect the 3DNow branding? The original 3DNow instruction set never caught on, and they were forced to adopt Intel's competing SSE instruction set instead. It's kind of like Ford attempting to resurrect the Edsel brand.

Edit: To reiterate the sentiment illustrated by the link in the first sentence of my post, I think this is a hoax. But it is still fun to speculate.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:31 am

Companies normally create some buzz around products that they PLAN to roll out a year or two from now. Given how AMD is so eerily silent about their future FX plans, I'm not going to assume that they still have anything in the pipe to succeed current Vishera chips for the AM3+ platform. Perhaps Excavator will still see the light of day, and indeed AMD has released some purported die shots (albeit just the FPU, I think) of Excavator in the past, but knowing AMD they can simply cancel their projects in the blink of an eye.

I say, if you want to get AMD's fastest offerings right now, go ahead and get an FX-8350. I've been wanting to get Steamroller FX chips last year but when I realized that they've been pushed to 2014 (starting to mass produce them in late Q4 this year for early 2014 availability on the shelves isn't exactly what I'd call a 2013 product), I thought, what the heck, I'm getting Vishera already. Of course there's always the Intel option. We AMD fans keep waiting for their products years away from release, and yet Intel can give you today what you'd have to wait years for AMD to give you. I like AMD, but their dead silence on future performance products is, unfortunately, making me look at my other options. I don't like Intel either and nothing excites me more (in the world of hobbies) than holding a new, boxed AMD processor in my hand, but you see my point.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:53 am

Amazon has the FX-9370 for $237.99 and from the reviews it holds 4.7ghz with a good cooler. I am sure a fx-8350 will hit 4.7ghz with a healthy overclock along with a good cooler also. But you are not guaranteed 4700mhz with the 200$ FX-8350, plus I would think the 9370 would have a bit more headroom then the 8350 when it come to the highest OC between the 2 chips and for $38 more if I was going to stay on the AMD train for a little longer I would probably spend the extra $38.

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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:01 am

vargis14 wrote:Amazon has the FX-9370 for $237.99 and from the reviews it holds 4.7ghz with a good cooler. I am sure a fx-8350 will hit 4.7ghz with a healthy overclock along with a good cooler also. But you are not guaranteed 4700mhz with the 200$ FX-8350, plus I would think the 9370 would have a bit more headroom then the 8350 when it come to the highest OC between the 2 chips and for $38 more if I was going to stay on the AMD train for a little longer I would probably spend the extra $38.

If you live near a Microcenter it's more like an extra $58, they're currently running an in-store special on it for $179.

I was tempted, but I resisted the urge. :wink:
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:20 pm

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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:41 pm

Flying Fox wrote:Answer to the question?

It is. My FX-8350 arrived today, I guess the tests shall begin.

I've used my Athlon II X4 640 for over two years, so I expect no less from this one.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:05 pm

Curious. For some reason I seemed to recall that the factory voltage of the FX 8350 was 1.4 V, but mine shipped with 1.375 V as the default, so I guess I was wrong. So far it looks good and runs slightly cooler than my previous CPU.

So far I've decreased the voltage to 1.3625 V, turned off Turbo, bumped up the CPU to 4100 MHz, and increased the NB speed to 2400 MHz (from 2200 MHz, which is ridiculous in the year 2013). A cursory stress test indicates these settings are stable. The CPU looks great to me overall. I'll see what else I can do with it later on, I have no patience to continue through the night right now.

One thing is for certain. It's already paying dividends, because my DAW projects no longer underrun (skip, break up and/or crackle) due to insufficient CPU resources.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:56 am

Meadows wrote:Curious. For some reason I seemed to recall that the factory voltage of the FX 8350 was 1.4 V, but mine shipped with 1.375 V as the default, so I guess I was wrong. So far it looks good and runs slightly cooler than my previous CPU.

So far I've decreased the voltage to 1.3625 V, turned off Turbo, bumped up the CPU to 4100 MHz, and increased the NB speed to 2400 MHz (from 2200 MHz, which is ridiculous in the year 2013). A cursory stress test indicates these settings are stable. The CPU looks great to me overall. I'll see what else I can do with it later on, I have no patience to continue through the night right now.

One thing is for certain. It's already paying dividends, because my DAW projects no longer underrun (skip, break up and/or crackle) due to insufficient CPU resources.

Well, you can always Prime95/IntelBurnTest/OCCT overnight. ;)
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:00 am

Flying Fox wrote:Well, you can always Prime95/IntelBurnTest/OCCT overnight. ;)

Never run stress tests unattended!
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:01 pm

Meadows wrote:One thing is for certain. It's already paying dividends, because my DAW projects no longer underrun (skip, break up and/or crackle) due to insufficient CPU resources.

Yes, DAW is one of those use cases where the extra 4 cores can be a big help.

Are you using the stock HSF? I swapped mine out for a Coolermaster Hyper TX3 to reduce the noise level under load. I suppose now that I don't run F@h 24x7 the stock unit might be acceptable, but there's really no reason to switch back.
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Re: AMD Upgrade Path

Postposted on Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:03 am

just brew it! wrote:Are you using the stock HSF?

No, no, no, no, God no. Arctic Cooling Freezer A30, + Arctic Cooling MX-4 thermal compound. The CPU is relatively cool, between 38-60°C depending on the load.

Has a really quiet 120 mm fan with some sort of liquid bearing. When the machine is idle, the A30 fan spins at something like 500 RPM, and it's practically noiseless. The GPU is usually the first thing that I do hear.
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