Slim projection (or DLP ?) bigscreens

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Slim projection (or DLP ?) bigscreens

Postposted on Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:12 pm

I at best buy today on the offchance they'd have a Wii (no luck). Anyhow, the local BB has their game consoles right near the big screen TV's, and so I wandered over to look...and I was amazed at the price on the thin projection TV's. Not the LCDs or Plasmas, but the type using that old fashioned technology. They're thin for what they are--no thicker than my 24" CRT TV. And the picture quality on some of them was amazing...and good god the prices!! 1080p for 1500 dollars on a 50" screen? Is there a downside to these? I can't get one yet, but I just found out from an informant (my younger brother) that I'm getting a 360+HD DVD player attachment for Christmas (:o)
and well, a big screen for Medal of Honor or hell, even a racing game or Assassin's Creed...oooh man! I was just wandering if they only drawback was the fact they're not flat?
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Postposted on Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:35 pm

And they're heavy, which means you can't hang them on a wall. The only real downside is that they take bulbs (IIRC) that eventually die and cost a couple hundred $$ to replace...I could be totally off base with that though.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:37 am

If you're serious about a rear projection TV, give the Sony A3000 a good, long look. It's one of the best RP HDTVs available, if not the best. And the price is right, too. It's SXRD, not DLP, so rainbows and color wheels aren't an issue (neither technology is "old fashioned", BTW). The color and grayscale is extremely accurate out of the box. It does 120hz processing and accepts 1080p/24 signals. The 50" model is only about 14" deep and weighs less than 80 pounds (most 50" plasmas weigh more). I just picked one up for $1599 at Crutchfield.
Last edited by Vrock on Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:40 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:The only real downside is that they take bulbs (IIRC) that eventually die and cost a couple hundred $$ to replace...I could be totally off base with that though.
That's correct, but those bulbs last for 4000 or more hours, which means a couple of years for most people.

Other downsides to rear projection TVs are limited viewing angles (though most are quite good, better than some direct view LCDs) and silk screen effect (a "sparkly" look to bright colors due to the matte finish of the protective outer screen.) Both can be managed by correct calibration and proper viewing height/angles.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:57 am

I think when I buy a new TV I may wind up with one of those then. I didn't plan to hang my TV on my wall anyway, and these seem to be much, much cheaper than good plasmas or LCDs, typically 600 less or more from the shopping I've done. So unless something changes in the next sixth months it'll likely be one of those. Although, the thought of hanging a 52" LCD on my wall...god that's appealing but it isn't worth the 2400+ good LCD TVs seem to cost :(

I saw a nice looking 73" one the other day at circuit city--was there looking for a DVD--holy freaking hell that was huge :o 3300 though.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:10 am

paulWTAMU wrote:I think when I buy a new TV I may wind up with one of those then. I didn't plan to hang my TV on my wall anyway, and these seem to be much, much cheaper than good plasmas or LCDs, typically 600 less or more from the shopping I've done. So unless something changes in the next sixth months it'll likely be one of those. Although, the thought of hanging a 52" LCD on my wall...god that's appealing but it isn't worth the 2400+ good LCD TVs seem to cost :(
You know what those 52" LCDs are good for? People who care more about how a television looks than how it looks, if you get me. Style over substance. If you're going to go flat panel, do yourself a favor and get a plasma. Even the best LCDs aren't as good as a decent plasma; especially when it comes to temporal resolution and black levels. Then there's backlight leakage, poor viewing angles, and backlight banding, all of which can ruin watching a TV in a darkened room. Frankly I'm amazed that LCDs are as popular as they are when plasmas are cheaper; it shows that the average consumer either doesn't know or doesn't care about image quality.

paulWTAMU wrote:saw a nice looking 73" one the other day at circuit city--was there looking for a DVD--holy freaking hell that was huge :o 3300 though.
The problem with sets that big is that they show everything bigger, including bad things. A DVD that looks sharp as a tack on a 46" screen can look like poop on a 73". I'd buy something in the 46-55 inch range if I were you.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:11 pm

Vrock wrote:If you're going to go flat panel, do yourself a favor and get a plasma. Even the best LCDs aren't as good as a decent plasma; especially when it comes to temporal resolution and black levels. Then there's backlight leakage, poor viewing angles, and backlight banding, all of which can ruin watching a TV in a darkened room. Frankly I'm amazed that LCDs are as popular as they are when plasmas are cheaper; it shows that the average consumer either doesn't know or doesn't care about image quality.
I think a lot of people might be concerned about burn-in issues as well.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:15 pm

mattsteg wrote:
Vrock wrote:If you're going to go flat panel, do yourself a favor and get a plasma. Even the best LCDs aren't as good as a decent plasma; especially when it comes to temporal resolution and black levels. Then there's backlight leakage, poor viewing angles, and backlight banding, all of which can ruin watching a TV in a darkened room. Frankly I'm amazed that LCDs are as popular as they are when plasmas are cheaper; it shows that the average consumer either doesn't know or doesn't care about image quality.
I think a lot of people might be concerned about burn-in issues as well.


And reflectivity...
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:22 pm

LCDs are very anti-reflective. My parents nearly bought one because the room they want it in gets a lot of sunlight, and they watch most of their TV in the afternoon anyways.

They settled on a fairly nice 1080P sony rear projection. It's not that old, but I don't think it is the one Vrock is talking about, as they got it about a year ago.

I thought with modern plasmas you don't really need to worry about burn in.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:26 pm

I'd heard about burn in with plasmas too, which was why I wasn't considering them as much; if that's no longer the case then maybe they're worth doing.

And I wasn't going to get the 73"; I can't afford it :wink: Most likely when I pull the trigger, it will be something in the 47" range, because bigger than that and I'm not sure how well it'll go in an apartment like mine.

The other question; when I build my new PC, if my GPU(s) have HDMI output, or if I buy a TV with dual DVI inputs, can I use that TV to play my PC games on? The new PC was already going to be used as an entertainment hub (movie player, music player, etc.) and thus will be hooked up to the TV someway, and that thought caught my mind. I don't know how pretty it'd look at that size though, and I know it'd be horrid for typing/net browsing.

EDIT: my setup, currently in pre-planning stages--
A PC with probably a terabyte + of storage, 2-4 gigs ram, an 8800GT or two (if available) likely a Core 2 Duo or Penryn, hooked up to my 47" or so TV, with a good surround sound system--so I can get some program to crack and rip my DVDs to my hard drive, and play from there rather than having to search through the disorganized mess of movies I have now. I figure I'd get a good wireless keyboard/mouse and play games or whatnot from my recliner ;) The thought of playing Bioshock in 1080p on a 47" screen...it tempts me! And the thought of a hub to handle all my other entertainment is very intriguing to me as well.
Last edited by paulWTAMU on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:32 pm

SpotTheCat wrote:I thought with modern plasmas you don't really need to worry about burn in.
It's tough to shed a reputation once it's been earned.

On another note it's somewhat amusing to see vrock stumping so hard for a technology that doesn't work for him.
Last edited by mattsteg on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:35 pm

How modern is "modern"? As recently as two years ago, a brand-new plasma screen had permanent image burn after less than a month of use as a control room DCS display, even with image-swapping and screen savers enabled.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:35 pm

Patrickr wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Vrock wrote:If you're going to go flat panel, do yourself a favor and get a plasma. Even the best LCDs aren't as good as a decent plasma; especially when it comes to temporal resolution and black levels. Then there's backlight leakage, poor viewing angles, and backlight banding, all of which can ruin watching a TV in a darkened room. Frankly I'm amazed that LCDs are as popular as they are when plasmas are cheaper; it shows that the average consumer either doesn't know or doesn't care about image quality.
I think a lot of people might be concerned about burn-in issues as well.


And reflectivity...
Panasonic has plasmas out with anti-reflective screens now. And burn-in, while still possible, hasn't been a huge issue with plasmas for the past couple generations.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:39 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:The other question; when I build my new PC, if my GPU(s) have HDMI output, or if I buy a TV with dual DVI inputs, can I use that TV to play my PC games on?
DVI is essentially dead for consumer televisions. You can always use a DVI to HDMI adaptor though on your video card.

I don't recommend using a PC with a rear projection TV though because of overscan issues.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:43 pm

I know you ditched your plasma Vrock; what lead to that if you don't mind me asking? This will be...well a major expense for me both in cash and in brownie points (I'm still winning over the wife). So I want to go in forwarned. Thanks for theheads up on the DVI link though; I'd thought TV's still had that connector :(
At 47" is the LCD vs. Plasma still a big deal, or does that come in to play more at the huge sizes of 50"+? I'd be sitting about 6-8 foot back from this.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:44 pm

mattsteg wrote:On another note it's somewhat amusing to see vrock stumping so hard for a technology that doesn't work for him.
Heh. Despite the issues with uneven phosphor decay, plasma is still superior to LCD. Not everyone is as unfortunate as me when it comes to seeing those artifacts. :(
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:04 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:I know you ditched your plasma Vrock; what lead to that if you don't mind me asking?


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... 10079073&&

Not everyone sees them, but once you notice them it pretty much ruins the experience. It was so bad for me that watching the TV with black and white movies actually gave me a headache.

paulWTAMU wrote:At 47" is the LCD vs. Plasma still a big deal, or does that come in to play more at the huge sizes of 50"+? I'd be sitting about 6-8 foot back from this.
The bottom line is that a quality LCD of equivalent size is going to cost you more than a Plasma. Since plasmas are pretty much limited to 42" and 50", a 47" LCD compares with a 50" plasma for the most part.

Philips has what appears to be a decent 47" LCD TV for about $1600. Inkedsphynx owns one, hit him up and see what he says about it.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:37 pm

Sadly at 50" the price seems to go way up; decent plasmas seem to sell for about 2200 which is outside of my range :( I'll look some more at the sub 50" market; I was hoping for a true gigantic-screen TV but I may have to settle for a mere bigscreen :)
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:56 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:Sadly at 50" the price seems to go way up; decent plasmas seem to sell for about 2200 which is outside of my range :( I'll look some more at the sub 50" market; I was hoping for a true gigantic-screen TV but I may have to settle for a mere bigscreen :)
Samsung makes a nice 50" 1080p plasma for about $2k. If 1080p isn't a must you can find nice 50" 768p plasmas for under $2k that still compare favorably to LCDs. And there are always 42" 1080p plasmas, too.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:14 pm

I didn't see the samsung when I was looking but may check on it. I'd like to get 1080p, but I have to admit, I didn't see much real difference between 720 and 1080 watching the football game they were broadcasting in the store. I will certainly try to find that Samsung though; 2k is at the uppermost limit, so cheaper is better, but that just sounds...so damn nice. I'd prefer to go bigger than a 42" but if needs must...

Now for speakers :-? I cannot think of spending an additonal grand on them, but I saw some pretty good HTIB setups for maybe 400 or so--and my ears aren't the greatest anyway.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:10 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:I didn't see the samsung when I was looking but may check on it. I'd like to get 1080p, but I have to admit, I didn't see much real difference between 720 and 1080 watching the football game they were broadcasting in the store.
It's possible that's because most football games are broadcast in 720p. If that was the case there, you really wouldn't see any difference between the two sets.

paulWTAMU wrote:I will certainly try to find that Samsung though; 2k is at the uppermost limit, so cheaper is better, but that just sounds...so damn nice. I'd prefer to go bigger than a 42" but if needs must...
I believe that Sammy is the 5084. Check it out. Cnet thought favorably of it. Turns out that it's a bit more expensive that I thought, hovering around $2500. Sorry. :(
Last edited by Vrock on Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:25 pm

I found it online at Crutchfield's :O Nice machine! It's 1080i which as I understand it can negatively affect image quality though. I'd like to find it someplace in town to at least see it...but good lord that size and price, and since Samsung has a good reputation...damn. I may have decided. Now I gotta convince wife. Wish me luck!
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:26 pm

paulWTAMU wrote:I found it online at Crutchfield's :O Nice machine! It's 1080i which as I understand it can negatively affect image quality though. I'd like to find it someplace in town to at least see it...but good lord that size and price, and since Samsung has a good reputation...damn. I may have decided. Now I gotta convince wife. Wish me luck!
That should be a full 1920x1080p TV....I'm sure of it.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:27 pm

mattsteg wrote:
Vrock wrote:If you're going to go flat panel, do yourself a favor and get a plasma. Even the best LCDs aren't as good as a decent plasma; especially when it comes to temporal resolution and black levels. Then there's backlight leakage, poor viewing angles, and backlight banding, all of which can ruin watching a TV in a darkened room. Frankly I'm amazed that LCDs are as popular as they are when plasmas are cheaper; it shows that the average consumer either doesn't know or doesn't care about image quality.
I think a lot of people might be concerned about burn-in issues as well.
Burn-in is not even remotely close to being an issue like it was several years ago. Thankfully, the technology has come a long way.

Anywho....RP HDTVs tend to be, IMO, more "quantity over quality". I'm not saying that DLPs, SXRDs, and the like are bad. In fact, as far as price goes, they win hands down when it comes to the larger sets. However, while you may be getting a very large (52"+) set cheaper than you would a comparatively sized plasma, the image quality isn't close to what plasma offers. If you're on a budget, then I highly recommend getting one of those sets. But if you have the cash, or the patience to save the money, then I highly recommend that you get a nice (i.e. Pioneer or Panasonic) plasma. That is....if you aren't succeptible to seeing phosphor decay. Poor Vrock. ;)

By the way, I love my Panny.
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:41 pm

Dizik wrote:However, while you may be getting a very large (52"+) set cheaper than you would a comparatively sized plasma, the image quality isn't close to what plasma offers.
I have to disagree. It depends a great deal on the specific set. Many plasmas suffer from inaccurate primary colors whereas the SXRD set is pretty much right on the nose for color accuracy (and gray scale). The reason RPTVs are cheaper isn't because they're inferior; it's because projection itself is cheaper.way of getting a bigger picture than direct view. Yeah, plasmas still hold the cards when it comes to blacks, I'll grant you that, but a good RPTV comes quite a bit closer than you're implying. IMHO, of course. :)


http://reviews.cnet.com/projection-tvs/ ... prod.txt.1
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Postposted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:17 pm

Dizik wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
Vrock wrote:If you're going to go flat panel, do yourself a favor and get a plasma. Even the best LCDs aren't as good as a decent plasma; especially when it comes to temporal resolution and black levels. Then there's backlight leakage, poor viewing angles, and backlight banding, all of which can ruin watching a TV in a darkened room. Frankly I'm amazed that LCDs are as popular as they are when plasmas are cheaper; it shows that the average consumer either doesn't know or doesn't care about image quality.
I think a lot of people might be concerned about burn-in issues as well.
Burn-in is not even remotely close to being an issue like it was several years ago. Thankfully, the technology has come a long way.
Sure, but the reputation persists to some degree. I'm always most impressed with the appearance of plasmas while browsing.
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Postposted on Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:50 am

Vrock wrote:I have to disagree. It depends a great deal on the specific set.
That goes without saying.
Vrock wrote:Many plasmas suffer from inaccurate primary colors whereas the SXRD set is pretty much right on the nose for color accuracy (and gray scale).
That's why I recommended Pioneer and Panasonic. ;) I have yet to see a set from either of those manufacturers that suffer from those problems, provided you don't get their cheapest set.
Vrock wrote:The reason RPTVs are cheaper isn't because they're inferior; it's because projection itself is cheaper.way of getting a bigger picture than direct view. Yeah, plasmas still hold the cards when it comes to blacks, I'll grant you that, but a good RPTV comes quite a bit closer than you're implying. IMHO, of course. :)
Sorry...I didn't mean to imply that projection was an inferior technology, just that you can usually get a larger RPTV for less than a comparatively sized plasma. And I'm not saying that the RPTVs image quality sucks, it's a great picture, but not as good as plasma. Again, this is all my opinion. I was seriously contemplating getting a 60-something inch DLP (Mitsubishi I think) before I bought my plasma. But after looking at the quality of the plasma I got over the DLP, it was worth it for me to spend the money on the smaller screen with better image quality. Not to mention, I wouldn't be able to get the full use of the DLP set since I would be unable to sit at the ideal viewing distance.

Above everything else, the major factor when buying a new set is how much one is willing to spend. If you've got the cash, then I highly recommend a plasma. Again, provided you aren't susceptible to phosphor decay. But, if you're on more of a budget, or just don't feel like spending the cash and still want a huge-ass set, then by all means get a DLP or LCoS set. Both are equally worth the investment, apples and oranges and all that stuff.
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Postposted on Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:50 am

The bigger LCD TVs also look good as a computer monitor. I wouldn't get one unless direct light is a problem though.

My brother has a 47" westinghouse. I really like it, it scales well and looks amazing using a computer to play everything.
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Postposted on Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:15 pm

Dizik wrote:That's why I recommended Pioneer and Panasonic. ;) I have yet to see a set from either of those manufacturers that suffer from those problems, provided you don't get their cheapest set.
Well...both the mainstream Pioneer and Panasonic sets have issues with inaccurate greens, according to their Cnet reviews anyway. I find this annoying. You have to dial the color saturation way down to compensate (which desaturates reds and blues as well, unfortunately). Otherwise stuff like grass and trees really stand out. For me, it's like the screen is saying "HEY LOOK! LOOK! I'M A TREE!"

Personally I think the CEMs do this on purpose because they know lots of flat panel buyers are sports fans, and they try to tailor their greens to stand out to attract these folk's attention. Ugh.

Dizik wrote:And I'm not saying that the RPTVs image quality sucks, it's a great picture, but not as good as plasma. Again, this is all my opinion. I was seriously contemplating getting a 60-something inch DLP (Mitsubishi I think) before I bought my plasma. But after looking at the quality of the plasma I got over the DLP, it was worth it for me to spend the money on the smaller screen with better image quality. Not to mention, I wouldn't be able to get the full use of the DLP set since I would be unable to sit at the ideal viewing distance.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I think plasmas are fantastic and generally do look a bit better than the finest RPTVs. In your opinion, what is it about the plasmas that makes them look better? Color? Contrast? Overall brightness? For me it's definitely the contrast.

Dizik wrote:Again, provided you aren't susceptible to phosphor decay.
You have no idea how much that sucks, too. *sigh*
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Postposted on Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:11 pm

Vrock wrote:Personally I think the CEMs do this on purpose because they know lots of flat panel buyers are sports fans, and they try to tailor their greens to stand out to attract these folk's attention. Ugh.
Sports can mean hockey, basketball, car racing, etc.. Then the green doesn't really matter?
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