two steps forward, one step back: Canon 450D

[danny e.]

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012 ... os450d.asp

Canon announced their newest entry-level dslr today.
The 450D has improvements in many areas...

pros:
12.2 MP sensor
9 point af
digic III
bigger battery
live view.
spot metering
much better kit lens

cons:
.. same now obsolete 3" lcd as the 40D

.. the camera uses only SD/SDHC cards. uh.. what? who uses SD? anyone, besides point and shooters?
I guess Canon is trying to appeal to point and shooters to upgrade.. and force existing owners to the higher-end models?
not sure about that decision.. what happens after they do attract point and shooters? i find the decision silly. they could have just had a dual-compartment like olympus did way back in 1999 with the C-2500L.

i still am on my 350D.. havent upgraded to the 40D yet.. was thinking about the 450D till i read the SD card thing. now i think i'll just wait till the 50D.
i also hope Canon releases an "entry-level" ff camera soon. there is speculation that it might happen.. 7D ? something around the $2,000 range and I'd probably bite.
however.. still like the idea of having the 1.6 crop camera around for the fun of super-zoom.
----------

Canon really needs to upgrade their LCD. After seeing the one on the nikon D300, the 230K one just looks.... fugly.

EDIT: clarified the SD cards.

[GokuSS2]

SD only???
Even my D40 uses SDHC

[FunkeeC]

SD only???
Even my D40 uses SDHC

If you follow the link he provided it says the following: Storage * • SD / SDHC card

[danny e.]

SD only???
Even my D40 uses SDHC

I meant SD only as in .. no CF.

the more i think about the decision, the more irate i get.
i mean.. i can see trying to draw in the point and shoot crowd.. but what kind of upgrade path is there after that?
who wants to throw away several hundred dollars worth of memory cards?

dumb.
they should have just had a dual compartment if they really thought having SD would help draw more point and shooters.
------------------

are there even any SDHC cards that can do 40MB/sec ?

[ucisilentbob]

The fastest official spec for SDHC is Class 6. 6MB/Sec

[SPOOFE]

who wants to throw away several hundred dollars worth of memory cards?

People that notice that larger and faster memory cards are available cheaper?

Most photographers get a memory card, perhaps two; everyone I know stopped using their 1 giggers when they picked up a 4 gig card.

In other words, the storage medium is hardly a deal breaker. Frankly, reading that they put in a larger viewfinder (and I guess Live View is spiffy) is far more significant than having to spend an extra $40 on a $800 camera.

[UberGerbil]

Nikon did the same thing, and got the same complaints: the D70 uses compact flash; the D80 uses SD/SD-HC

I don't think it has hurt their sales, however, as I'm sure Canon has noticed.

[JustAnEngineer]

I just bought one 16GB CF card when I got the 40D. It holds over 1000 RAW + JPEG photos (at about 14½ MB per shot).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820208337

A 16GB class 6 SDHC card isn't exactly going to break the bank, either:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820208377

[cass]

are there even any SDHC cards that can do 40MB/sec ?

Are there any Canon cameras that write at over 8MB/sec? I mean the fastest write speed I see any of the cameras gettting is 6-7MB/s

The internal buffer is totally in control of your burst speed and how many you can take.

Checking out the physical size of the camera it has shrunk, so they are probably running out of real estate for the cf1+2 slots.

[mattsteg]

.. the camera uses only SD/SDHC cards. uh.. what? who uses SD? anyone, besides point and shooters?

The 1D and 1Ds series cameras have had SD slots for a couple of generations.

Are there any Canon cameras that write at over 8MB/sec? I mean the fastest write speed I see any of the cameras gettting is 6-7MB/s

Again, the 1D(s) series cameras have been there for a couple of generations.

[cass]

.. the camera uses only SD/SDHC cards. uh.. what? who uses SD? anyone, besides point and shooters?

The 1D and 1Ds series cameras have had SD slots for a couple of generations.

Are there any Canon cameras that write at over 8MB/sec? I mean the fastest write speed I see any of the cameras gettting is 6-7MB/s

Again, the 1D(s) series cameras have been there for a couple of generations.

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/di ... cards.html
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_ ... =6007-6896

according to them 2 links the 1 and mkII have yet to break 8MB/s... you got another test?

[mattsteg]

.. the camera uses only SD/SDHC cards. uh.. what? who uses SD? anyone, besides point and shooters?

The 1D and 1Ds series cameras have had SD slots for a couple of generations.

Are there any Canon cameras that write at over 8MB/sec? I mean the fastest write speed I see any of the cameras gettting is 6-7MB/s

Again, the 1D(s) series cameras have been there for a couple of generations.

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/di ... cards.html
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_ ... =6007-6896

according to them 2 links the 1 and mkII have yet to break 8MB/s... you got another test?

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneo ... page12.asp - although the faster speed was actually obtained over SD, not CF. Kinda kills the argument that SD is a performance impediment in-camera. I suppose Galbraith has the 1ds II marginally exceeding 8 MB/s as well.

[cass]

- although the faster speed was actually obtained over SD, not CF. Kinda kills the argument that SD is a performance impediment in-camera. I suppose Galbraith has the 1ds II marginally exceeding 8 MB/s as well.

You got me by .01

I also wonder if the sd doesn't take less power to operate?

[Usacomp2k3]

I think that that's a good thing. It makes it really easy for laptop users as most laptops now come with built-in SD readers. I have an 8gb CF card, but that only set me back $130 around 18 months ago.

[UberGerbil]

I think that that's a good thing. It makes it really easy for laptop users as most laptops now come with built-in SD readers. I have an 8gb CF card, but that only set me back $130 around 18 months ago.

Adaptors for CF cards to go in PCMCIA slots were pretty common; I don't know if such a thing exists for ExpressCard (probably, just haven't had any reason to look).

"Pro" cameras have CF cards for historical reasons; there used to be significant technical advantages as well (you used to be able to get CF hard drive cards, back when that was the only way to get high capacity, etc) but SD has been eating into those. SD has the benefit of being the high-volume consumer technology, so it will tend to advance quickly especially in terms of price/performance. Pro shooters haven investment in CF cards, but given the price of everything else "Pro" switching to (probably higher capacity) SD-HC cards wouldn't be a burden; the real problem is the perception that CF is "pro" and SD is "consumer" -- that, probably more than anything, is what keeps CF alive on the Pro cameras.

[danny e.]

I think that that's a good thing. It makes it really easy for laptop users as most laptops now come with built-in SD readers. I have an 8gb CF card, but that only set me back $130 around 18 months ago.

Adaptors for CF cards to go in PCMCIA slots were pretty common; I don't know if such a thing exists for ExpressCard (probably, just haven't had any reason to look).

"Pro" cameras have CF cards for historical reasons; there used to be significant technical advantages as well (you used to be able to get CF hard drive cards, back when that was the only way to get high capacity, etc) but SD has been eating into those. SD has the benefit of being the high-volume consumer technology, so it will tend to advance quickly especially in terms of price/performance. Pro shooters haven investment in CF cards, but given the price of everything else "Pro" switching to (probably higher capacity) SD-HC cards wouldn't be a burden; the real problem is the perception that CF is "pro" and SD is "consumer" -- that, probably more than anything, is what keeps CF alive on the Pro cameras.

also the fact that CF cards are still faster

[danny e.]

.. the camera uses only SD/SDHC cards. uh.. what? who uses SD? anyone, besides point and shooters?

The 1D and 1Ds series cameras have had SD slots for a couple of generations.

was not aware of that. seems odd that the top of the line camera has both but the midrange is CF only.
If the industry wants to move to SDHC they should start implementing dual slots in all of the cameras .. or just make the switch one way or the other.

who wants to throw away several hundred dollars worth of memory cards?

People that notice that larger and faster memory cards are available cheaper?

Most photographers get a memory card, perhaps two; everyone I know stopped using their 1 giggers when they picked up a 4 gig card.

In other words, the storage medium is hardly a deal breaker. Frankly, reading that they put in a larger viewfinder (and I guess Live View is spiffy) is far more significant than having to spend an extra $40 on a $800 camera.

if you're only spending $40 on memory, then you must never shoot anywhere but right around the house.

[SPOOFE]

if you're only spending $40 on memory, then you must never shoot anywhere but right around the house.

Only if your definition of "around the house" includes distances of six or seven hundred miles, yeah.

[UberGerbil]

also the fact that CF cards are still faster

Getting better. SD's economic advantages will win out eventually.

[etilena]

Prefer CF cards because they are physically bigger. I prefer to take them out of the camera and plug them into a card reader. SD cards feel flimsy to the touch and I'm afraid if I use too much force, I might break them.

[diamond2a]

Prefer CF cards because they are physically bigger. I prefer to take them out of the camera and plug them into a card reader. SD cards feel flimsy to the touch and I'm afraid if I use too much force, I might break them.

I prefer SD so I don't have to worry about bending pins, but i only looked at Canon's offerings briefly before going with Pentax because I'm a cheapskate

[Usacomp2k3]

Prefer CF cards because they are physically bigger. I prefer to take them out of the camera and plug them into a card reader. SD cards feel flimsy to the touch and I'm afraid if I use too much force, I might break them.

I will say that honestly that is the first time I've heard that.

[SpotTheCat]

I was afraid of SD for a while, but it is pretty robust at the end of the day.

[Madman]

cons:
.. same now obsolete 3" lcd as the 40D

Who uses friggin LCD on camera with optical viewfinder anyway?!

[mattsteg]

cons:
.. same now obsolete 3" lcd as the 40D

Who uses friggin LCD on camera with optical viewfinder anyway?!

Anyone who wants to perform preliminary image evaluations in the field and possibly those who want to perform extremely precise macro focusing, among others.

[Madman]

cons:
.. same now obsolete 3" lcd as the 40D

Who uses friggin LCD on camera with optical viewfinder anyway?!

Anyone who wants to perform preliminary image evaluations in the field and possibly those who want to perform extremely precise macro focusing, among others.

You have enough meters to do just that, take a spot metering, fix exposure by one of the zones, adjust it +/- by 1/2, 1/3, add bracketing and you're done, LCD is NEVER right... And with macro you need some sort of tripod anyway...

[mattsteg]

Who uses friggin LCD on camera with optical viewfinder anyway?!

Anyone who wants to perform preliminary image evaluations in the field and possibly those who want to perform extremely precise macro focusing, among others.

You have enough meters to do just that, take a spot metering, fix exposure by one of the zones, adjust it +/- by 1/2, 1/3, add bracketing and you're done, LCD is NEVER right...[/quote]Gee, that sure does a buttload to check for sharpness etc. If your screen doesn't suck ass that's quite feasible.

And with macro you need some sort of tripod anyway...

WTF does a tripod do to somehow negate the usefulness of an LCD?

[Madman]

Who uses friggin LCD on camera with optical viewfinder anyway?!

Anyone who wants to perform preliminary image evaluations in the field and possibly those who want to perform extremely precise macro focusing, among others.

You have enough meters to do just that, take a spot metering, fix exposure by one of the zones, adjust it +/- by 1/2, 1/3, add bracketing and you're done, LCD is NEVER right...

Gee, that sure does a buttload to check for sharpness etc. If your screen doesn't suck ass that's quite feasible.

And with macro you need some sort of tripod anyway...

WTF does a tripod do to somehow negate the usefulness of an LCD?[/quote]

Well, all I know is that I spent two years or so shooting with 350D and LCD is never telling you anything. You can zoom how close you want, you will never see if the scene is out of focus or not. Remember and follow few simple rules, like exposure = 1/(focal length*crop factor) and you know that most of the shots will be good.

You cannot keep your LCD and camera steady while shooting macros anyway. Or you need very good lighting conditions with dark as hell canon lenses and focal length of 160mm (transferred to 35mm equivalent).

[Usacomp2k3]

Well, all I know is that I spent two years or so shooting with 350D and LCD is never telling you anything. You can zoom how close you want, you will never see if the scene is out of focus or not. Remember and follow few simple rules, like exposure = 1/(focal length*crop factor) and you know that most of the shots will be good.

You cannot keep your LCD and camera steady while shooting macros anyway. Or you need very good lighting conditions with dark as hell canon lenses and focal length of 160mm (transferred to 35mm equivalent).

I will agree that many times I have gotten back to my computer and noticed the focus wasn't quite where i wanted it, but then I realized that if I actually payed attention when framing the picture and took advantage of the DOF button, then it improved dramatically.

That said, my new 18-55 IS lens has left me a little spoiled

[mattsteg]

Well, all I know is that I spent two years or so shooting with 350D and LCD is never telling you anything. You can zoom how close you want, you will never see if the scene is out of focus or not.

Well gee, maybe that's why danny's interested in a better one? What a novel concept! Address a shortcoming with an improvement! Inconceivable!

Remember and follow few simple rules, like exposure = 1/(focal length*crop factor) and you know that most of the shots will be good.

That doesn't give you anything more than a starting point. If your technique sucks, it's optimistic. If it rocks, it's pessimistic. It also has nothing to do with focus.

You cannot keep your LCD and camera steady while shooting macros anyway.

Dude, get your head screwed on right! I thought you already claimed we needed a tripod. If your tripod can't keep your camera steady, you need a new one.

Or you need very good lighting conditions with dark as hell canon lenses and focal length of 160mm (transferred to 35mm equivalent).

You could always use that extremely rare item - the speedlight. I know this may seem revolutionary and exotic to you...

You still haven't said what a tripod does to negate LCD usefulness, by the way.