plasma 720P = 1080P?

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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:16 am

Vrock wrote:My 50A3000 can be had for $1500 if you look. Of course, it's a projection TV, and it comes with its own tradeoffs. What are you going to use the TV for?

I'm not sure I need something that large. This is going to go in a one bedroom apartment. Right now I have a 32" tube TV and that's actually rather large for my livingroom. I think I sit about 5-6 feet away from the screen, maybe a little more. I haven't measured in a while so I'm guessing.

I primarily use my TV for watching recordings (both SD and HD) from my SageTV system via my HD media extender. That and watching converted DVD's the same way. Full 720x480 anamorphic H.264 Main Profile video. That and a few HD videos I have along with HD podcasts. When I get an HDTV I will be hooking my HD extender via HDMI and hopefully watching more HD stuff as prices on players and media come down. Hauppauge is also coming out with a component HD capture device that should allow me to really switch over to HD by allowing me to record full HD from cable STB's.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:44 am

I'd look at Samsung and Sony LCDs in the 40" range.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:51 pm

I figured out a while back that I'd need about a 40" TV to at least match the height of my current 32" 4:3 TV. And no, I'm not one of those people that wants to watch 4:3 all distorted on a wide TV. It makes me sad just thinking about it. One of the restaurants I go to does that with their SD sports channels. A few of the TV's have that weird mode where the image looks normal in the middle of the screen then progressively gets more distorted towards the left and right edges of the screen. It looks really bizarre when you're watching basketball on one and they're panning left and right. Not to mention the players tend to get these really long legs away from the center of the screen. Gods forbid a circle comes up on the screen. It all just looks awful. From a burn-in point of view I can understand. But for screens that aren't prone to burn-in it just looks disgusting.

I don't have nearly the room or money for it but it would be awesome if I could have one of those uber expensive projectors along with an anmorphic lense. I was reading about that a few weeks ago. If money were no object and I had a large enough house that is definitely the way I'd go. I like movies enough that I would really enjoy having a set up like that.

I'll check those out. The 40" Samsung is currently selling for $1400 on Newegg. Once I get more funds on the table I'll start doing some serious looking around. I'd really like to get one by the end of the year if not by summer. I can't wait to see how nice SageTV works at 1080p. I had been using a Hauppauge MediaMVP with it. I've very pleased with the HD Extender the SageTV crew are selling. If you're running SageTV it's really a great deal at $200. None of the other HD capable extenders are that cheap and don't have nearly as nice an interface as SageTV does.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:52 pm

Taddeusz wrote:I figured out a while back that I'd need about a 40" TV to at least match the height of my current 32" 4:3 TV. And no, I'm not one of those people that wants to watch 4:3 all distorted on a wide TV. It makes me sad just thinking about it. One of the restaurants I go to does that with their SD sports channels. A few of the TV's have that weird mode where the image looks normal in the middle of the screen then progressively gets more distorted towards the left and right edges of the screen. It looks really bizarre when you're watching basketball on one and they're panning left and right. Not to mention the players tend to get these really long legs away from the center of the screen. Gods forbid a circle comes up on the screen. It all just looks awful. From a burn-in point of view I can understand. But for screens that aren't prone to burn-in it just looks disgusting.

I don't have nearly the room or money for it but it would be awesome if I could have one of those uber expensive projectors along with an anmorphic lense. I was reading about that a few weeks ago. If money were no object and I had a large enough house that is definitely the way I'd go. I like movies enough that I would really enjoy having a set up like that.

I'll check those out. The 40" Samsung is currently selling for $1400 on Newegg. Once I get more funds on the table I'll start doing some serious looking around. I'd really like to get one by the end of the year if not by summer. I can't wait to see how nice SageTV works at 1080p. I had been using a Hauppauge MediaMVP with it. I've very pleased with the HD Extender the SageTV crew are selling. If you're running SageTV it's really a great deal at $200. None of the other HD capable extenders are that cheap and don't have nearly as nice an interface as SageTV does.

That's how TNT does many of the "HD" programming. It's painful to watch x-files on that.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:12 pm

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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:43 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:That's how TNT does many of the "HD" programming. It's painful to watch x-files on that.


That's really sad. One of the reasons I really like Fox HD programming is that they pillarbox SD shows such as The Simpsons. BTW, The Simpsons looks awesome in "HD". I don't know what they do to get such a sharp image but when I crop the pillarboxing out to fit on my 4:3 screen it looks awesome. Especially much better than the same SD broadcast.

But, yea, I've heard there are a lot of channels that cater to the "fill my screen" crowd and distort 4:3 content. IMHO, if they really want their screen filled that's their choice. But for those of us who would rather watch pillarboxed we should be given that option. At least if they pillarbox their content they aren't cutting out the "fill my screen" bunch. Of course, I have heard there are TV's that don't support taking a pillarboxed HD signal and spreading it out so the actual picture fills the screen.

What ESPN does for SD is kind of funny to me. Instead of having black bars they splash ESPN HD on each side in dark gray. I guess it's kind of a tradeoff between both camps. There's still something there. :P
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:54 pm

Taddeusz wrote:How would you guys rate the Westinghouse TX-42F430S? I just noticed that the price dropped to just $1000. With 4 HDMI ports I think it's a really good deal. I have a friend who has the previous model 42" Westinghouse and am quite impressed by it for the price.


I've got that tv and i like it. Displays everything I want with good results.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:12 pm

On a side note, how comparable is upconversion 1080 to real 1080i/p? My girlfriend's mom got a 50' plasma as a gift (forget the brand), and they got a upconversion 1080p dvd/vcr combo player to go with it. I have a hard time believing upconverted vcr source, or even dvd source, can look half way decent in 1080.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:19 pm

Mysty wrote:On a side note, how comparable is upconversion 1080 to real 1080i/p? My girlfriend's mom got a 50' plasma as a gift (forget the brand), and they got a upconversion 1080p dvd/vcr combo player to go with it. I have a hard time believing upconverted vcr source, or even dvd source, can look half way decent in 1080.

It looks better than a standard def TV, that's for sure, but it isn't anywhere close to good HD media.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:39 pm

Say you have a 1600x1200 monitor. Play a game at 1600x1200 and then play the same game at 653x490 (1920x1080 = 6x the resolution of 720x480). Let me know how much of a difference you notice.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:56 pm

Well, upconverting does do some interpolation, so it looks better than just blowing up the picture. An HD source still looks much better though.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:37 am

THanks for all the replies guys. I'm getting quite an education here

As noted, for viewing distances of 5 to 10 feet, you'll need a 60" screen for nominal human vision to theoretically be able to see the difference between 720 and 1080 resolutions.


Im not sure that the above statement is what the "friend" was referring to when saying 720P = 1080P on a plasma. It may be true. I'll have to ask. More reasonable is that the dood was referring to this:

Also, did you hear the tech guy right? Cause, I have heard most tech guys say that 1080i = 1080P on plasma, which is kind of reasonable.


I think that this is what the dood was saying. ppl have said in the past that 1080i (not a true 1080 lines per frame) = or is very similar to 720P. So if you got a 720P system, and you play a 1080P blueray for instance, it knocks the signal down to 720P right? So read the statement above 720P = 1080i (or damn close). Well, cause the REFRESH RATE on a plasma is so damn fast, as the above quote from tech guy states, 1080i = 1080P. Therefore, according to the "friend":
1080P = 1080i = 720P, so 1080P = 720P.

The logic makes sense, but I am not sure the logic is correct. Therefore, I'm putting it to u guys. Now that I have made a more clear distinction (thanks for jogging the memory tech guys), is this dood still full of ****?

Thanks in advance guys
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:29 am

Mysty wrote:On a side note, how comparable is upconversion 1080 to real 1080i/p? My girlfriend's mom got a 50' plasma as a gift (forget the brand), and they got a upconversion 1080p dvd/vcr combo player to go with it. I have a hard time believing upconverted vcr source, or even dvd source, can look half way decent in 1080.


With an upcscaling DVD player, you're just moving the upscaling from the TV's electronics to the DVD's electronics, so the end result will depend on which is the better quality. If it's a relatively high quality TV and a relatively low quality DVD, then you're probably better off leaving the TV to do the upscaling. Given it's a DVD/VCR combo, I'm going to stick my neck out and guess it's probably not got the highest quality scaler in the world. DVD can still look pretty good after upscaling, but it's not going to be a substitute for a proper HD source. VHS is going to look pretty nasty on a 50" screen whatever you do to the signal. :)
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:18 am

1080i has a true 1080 lines. It's in the way the signal is transmitted. 1080i is only used in broadcast TV. Anything else, e.g. Bluray or HD-DVD, is going to be 1080p. There is no way 1080i/p=720p. Whoever is telling you that is full of crap. They don't know what they're talking about. Unless you're really strapped for cash get 1080p. You can't really go wrong that way. There's so much wrong with 720p TV's it's not even funny.

720p does not equal 1080p!
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:46 am

DopplersEffect wrote:Well, cause the REFRESH RATE on a plasma is so damn fast, as the above quote from tech guy states, 1080i = 1080P. Therefore, according to the "friend":
1080P = 1080i = 720P, so 1080P = 720P.
Your "friend" is full of crap. Refresh rate is not a factor in resolution.

720p and 1080i take up about the same amount of bandwidth, but they are not the "same". As for 1080i vs. 1080p, real 1080i is about indistiguishable in quality from real 1080p for still pictures. For moving images, 1080p has the edge due to its progressive nature. As usual, it's always preferable to feed a fixed panel display its native resolution.

As for upconverting....it's not a feature, it's a necessary evil. The only reason it exists is because high quality multisync, flexible resolution CRT televisions are dead and we are stuck with fixed pixel displays. Upconverting wasn't needed back when CRT ruled the day, because they could adjust their resolution to match the video signal instead of vice versa. A 480p TV displaying a 480 source will generally look better (or at least just as good) then a 1080p TV displaying an upconverted 480p source.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:16 am

OK thanks guys

I DID GET that 1080P is the way to go if you got the cash

Not sure I want to drop like 4k for a big 1080P tv though

I may go with the nice sony

I may elect for a large 720P since it still looks damn close if your 5 feet away
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:22 am

Choose size based on room layout and then choose type (plasma vs. LCD vs DLP) based on $$. That should be your order of operations.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:12 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:Choose size based on room layout and then choose type (plasma vs. LCD vs DLP) based on $$. That should be your order of operations.
I'd say choose type based on usage first, then dollars.
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1

Postposted on Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:47 am

All of you guys are being nerds and not understanding what his friend was suggesting.

In the end, when you sit a good distance from a 1080p and 720p TV, given they are the same size, the difference will be negligible. This is sort of like arguing 400kbps vs 200kbps mp3 files broadcast from stock car speakers.

If you are super-anal, sit close, or really care about the resolution difference from 720p to 1080p, maybe the difference in $$ is important to you.

For someone on a budget, I'd rather see them get a 60" TV that can do 720P than a 42" tv that can do 1080p.

On the flipside, I can respect the fact that 720p capable TVs that can't handle 1080 content number in the few, and tend to be older and use inferior technology. But if you sit 10 feet from a 720p 50" tv and a 1080p 50" tv with similar IQ, I think you will be extremely hard pressed to spot the benefits of an extra 360 vertical lines under normal lighting conditions. I say this, however, under one condition: that you aren't using the TV as a computer monitor / web browser / etc. If you're going to use a web browser on your big-screen, resolution is King.

Frankly, if I had the choice between a 60" 1080p and a 60" 720" tv, with similar picture, I'd obviously choose the 1080p. But once the 1080p tv exceeded the cost of the 720p tv, I'd probably lose interest at a 15-20% premium.
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Re: 1

Postposted on Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:36 am

computron9000 wrote:For someone on a budget, I'd rather see them get a 60" TV that can do 720P than a 42" tv that can do 1080p.

Consequently you're more likely to notice the difference on the larger screen. :D That being said I tend to agree with you but it all depends on what you are going to be doing with it.

For myself I prefer to have a 1080p. At least with the viewing distance in my apartment I believe I would be able to tell the difference even on something as small as a 40".

Edit: In other words, "size doesn't matter, it's how you use it!" :P
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:03 pm

In the end, when you sit a good distance from a 1080p and 720p TV, given they are the same size, the difference will be negligible. This is sort of like arguing 400kbps vs 200kbps mp3 files broadcast from stock car speakers.


Gee, if you sit far enough away from a regular SD TV then the difference between an HD set and a SD set is negligible as well.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:47 pm

One thing to remember is that 720p sets are going to downscale 1080i/p signals. Down scaling can introduce artifacts like jaggies/stair stepping, and moire patterns. Those are very noticeable and I find them quite annoying. So while you may not be able to tell a difference in resolution, overall quality may still suffer with 1080 signals.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:14 pm

Vrock wrote:One thing to remember is that 720p sets are going to downscale 1080i/p signals. Down scaling can introduce artifacts like jaggies/stair stepping, and moire patterns. Those are very noticeable and I find them quite annoying. So while you may not be able to tell a difference in resolution, overall quality may still suffer with 1080 signals.

Here in OKC the networks are split between the two. Fox and ABC are 720p while PBS, CBS, NBC, and The CW are all in 1080i. I'm not sure whether or not the local affiliates have a choice which resolution they use but I just know that's the way it is here.

IMHO, going with a 1080p TV is going to be the better of the two choices. Mainly because all content on a 720p TV is going to be scaled because most are 1366x768. Even 720p content on those isn't going to exactly look sharp because it's going to be interpolated during scaling. At least with a 1080p TV you'll get no scaling at 1080i/p.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:53 am

Nitrodist wrote:
In the end, when you sit a good distance from a 1080p and 720p TV, given they are the same size, the difference will be negligible. This is sort of like arguing 400kbps vs 200kbps mp3 files broadcast from stock car speakers.


Gee, if you sit far enough away from a regular SD TV then the difference between an HD set and a SD set is negligible as well.


Very true. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:12 am

I want one of those Samsung 71 series LCD 120hz.
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Re: plasma 720P = 1080P?

Postposted on Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:22 am

newbie_of_jan0502 wrote:I want one of those Samsung 71 series LCD 120hz.
The Sony XBR4s are better sets, if you can get one without backlight problems.
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