The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

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The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:04 pm

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/14/dell ... 2009w-lcd/

This will mark the first >=20" monitor that bears the Ultrasharp name to be using the dreaded TN panel. No more Composite input as well. At least they kept the USB hub. But really, TN panels don't deserve to wear that Ultrasharp name.

It's interesting how they can claim black-to-white 5ms and a 102% colour gamut when it clearly is using some sort of Overdrive technology? Either they made a breakthrough in tech or it's just pure BS. Reviews should reveal these.

I fear the 24" is next. Sad indeed. :( :-? :cry:
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:18 pm

TN panels seems to be where the money is for big businesses. The general buyer just looks at the size and the price tag, and in that case TN panels usually win. And adding an attractive word like "ultrasharp" makes even better sales.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:32 pm

So what is the big difference TN panels and regular panels ? I honestly dont know what the difference is.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:35 pm

Color quality and viewing angles.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:47 pm

Ughh. I wonder why they bother including rotation as I doubt anyone in their right mind would use a TN screen in portrait mode.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:51 pm

*hugs 2405FPW*
*yawn*
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:44 pm

thecoldanddarkone wrote:Color quality and viewing angles.


What's the easiest way to tell if the monitor is using a TN panel or something better? And please define "something" :)
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:50 pm

You probably don't know what to look for it's best to read and use the tests on this site to understand the differences between a high and low quality lcd.


http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:53 pm

david00214 wrote:
thecoldanddarkone wrote:Color quality and viewing angles.


What's the easiest way to tell if the monitor is using a TN panel or something better? And please define "something" :)

Usually *va or IPS panels will have rated viewing angles of something like 178°/178° horizontal/vertical versus the 170°/160° or worse often advertised for TN displays. There are other ways of telling as well, such as the price usually :P. Additionally, sites like www.flatpanels.dk and TFT Central keep databases of most LCD monitors.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:00 pm

thecoldanddarkone wrote:You probably don't know what to look for it's best to read and use the tests on this site to understand the differences between a high and low quality lcd.


http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

That site is excellent at showing you how crappy your display is :wink:

I also highly recommend flatpanel.dk's Monitor Test.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:13 pm

david00214 wrote:What's the easiest way to tell if the monitor is using a TN panel or something better? And please define "something" :)


Something better:
IPS, PVA, MVA. Supposedly.

You can tell if a panel is TN easily by looking at it from close to the monitor (a foot away) at a low angle (below the bottom of the monitor) and a high angle (above the top of the monitor). If all the brightnesses are changing dramatically, and generally it looks pretty bad from above or below compared to dead-on, it is TN. This works best after putting up a picture with lots of different colors, bright and dark, saturated or not... but you should be able to tell easily on any monitor at a store even if you cannot adjust what's on the screen.

HOWEVER! TN is not necessarily worse, despite what many people may say. Typically, IPS, PVA, and MVA monitors have better color accuracy, and much better viewing angles. But from my research, they seem totally unsuited to gaming due to high input latency, often exceeding 40ms (on monitors rated for 8ms or 5ms response time). Whether this is inherent to the panel type or because of bad engineering is unclear. But considering that non-TN monitors are much more expensive, be very careful to find out the input latency when you consider buying one, if you are sensitive to that sort of thing. TN monitors are not guaranteed to have low input latency, by the way! But typically they seem to be much lower than the "better" panel types.

P.S. For example, check out the Input Lag graph near the bottom of this review.
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/samsung_xl20.htm
Last edited by Saber Cherry on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:15 pm

crazybus wrote:
david00214 wrote:
thecoldanddarkone wrote:Color quality and viewing angles.


What's the easiest way to tell if the monitor is using a TN panel or something better? And please define "something" :)

Usually *va or IPS panels will have rated viewing angles of something like 178°/178° horizontal/vertical versus the 170°/160° or worse often advertised for TN displays. There are other ways of telling as well, such as the price usually :P. Additionally, sites like www.flatpanels.dk and TFT Central keep databases of most LCD monitors.

Also the response times. The best I have seen from S-IPS/S-PVA is about 8ms if not more. Getting below that is the realm of TN panels.

Saber Cherry wrote:HOWEVER! TN is not necessarily worse, despite what many people may say. Typically, IPS, PVA, and MVA monitors have better color accuracy, and much better viewing angles. But from my research, they seem totally unsuited to gaming due to high input latency, often exceeding 40ms (on monitors rated for 8ms or 5ms response time). Whether this is inherent to the panel type or because of bad engineering is unclear. But considering that non-TN monitors are much more expensive, be very careful when you consider buying one to find out the input latency, if you are sensitive to that sort of thing. TN monitors are not guaranteed to have low input latency, by the way! But typically they seem to be much lower than the "better" types.
That's why usually gaming and work (photograhy/video in particular) don't mix, or users have to compromise.

BTW welcome to the forums Saber Cherry. :)
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:21 pm

Have we asked him to fold for UGN yet? :D :) :D
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:32 pm

david00214 wrote:Have we asked him to fold for UGN yet? :D :) :D

Hey don't scare off the newbie here, especially when you are PUI. :lol:
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:37 pm

Flying Fox wrote:BTW welcome to the forums Saber Cherry. :)


Thanks!

...by the way, no folding here. "Wasted" CPU cycles stopped existing once dynamic power management was implemented in CPUs, and I care more about the environment than malformed proteins :) Sorry!
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:40 pm

Saber Cherry wrote:Typically, IPS, PVA, and MVA monitors have better color accuracy, and much better viewing angles. But from my research, they seem totally unsuited to gaming due to high input latency, often exceeding 40ms (on monitors rated for 8ms or 5ms response time). Whether this is inherent to the panel type or because of bad engineering is unclear. But considering that non-TN monitors are much more expensive, be very careful to find out the input latency when you consider buying one, if you are sensitive to that sort of thing. TN monitors are not guaranteed to have low input latency, by the way! But typically they seem to be much lower than the "better" panel types.

P.S. For example, check out the Input Lag graph near the bottom of this review.
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/samsung_xl20.htm


My 24" LG L246WP-BN, which uses a P-MVA panel, has around 22ms input latency according to this review:

http://www.bexox.com/showdown.htm

No problems at all during gaming. My older 19" Viewsonic VP930b with a P-MVA panel has around 16-17ms input latency.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:54 pm

Flying Fox wrote:
david00214 wrote:Have we asked him to fold for UGN yet? :D :) :D

Hey don't scare off the newbie here, especially when you are PUI. :lol:


God I hate to ask this, but what is PUI?
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:58 pm

Saber Cherry wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:BTW welcome to the forums Saber Cherry. :)


Thanks!

...by the way, no folding here. "Wasted" CPU cycles stopped existing once dynamic power management was implemented in CPUs, and I care more about the environment than malformed proteins :) Sorry!


Welcome to the forums Saber!

As far as the environment, I care too, but I feel this is a worthy cause.

My wife is a biotech research instrument support scientist, and she thinks this is a worthwhile endeavor, so I'll keep folding :wink:
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:56 am

The product image posted on Engadget is flawed. Rather than this:
Image
It should look like this:
Image
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:27 am

You got that right. :lol:
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:49 am

david00214 wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:
david00214 wrote:Have we asked him to fold for UGN yet? :D :) :D

Hey don't scare off the newbie here, especially when you are PUI. :lol:


God I hate to ask this, but what is PUI?


From what I gather its Posting Under the Influence. Like a DUI.

I hate these texting acronyms. I can never figure them out. Google to the rescue. :D
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:06 am

Oh, UI was right. I had two crown and cokes last night on an empty stomach... It's bad to PUI, cause there is a record of your rantings the next day.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:45 pm

david00214 wrote:Oh, UI was right. I had two crown and cokes last night on an empty stomach... It's bad to PUI, cause there is a record of your rantings the next day.

Some people pui 24/7 so don't feel bad.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:56 pm

crazybus wrote:The product image posted on Engadget is flawed. Rather than this:
http://i30.tinypic.com/eq9lcl.jpg
It should look like this:
http://i27.tinypic.com/2w1s70g.jpg

That is absolutely hilarious. Did you make that?
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:55 am

*hugs my 2007wfp*

So when will they come out with a better S-IPS panel that is below 30"?
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:48 am

kitsura wrote:So when will they come out with a better S-IPS panel that is below 30"?
Dell? Probably never. The remaining holdout seems to be NEC with its expensive models. It truly is a sad day when "gamerz" and cheapskates finally tip the balance and make vendors cave in to the lowest common denominator. :-? :( :cry:

Looks like the 22" is taking on the Ultrasharp name too, so I guess a 24" TN model is not too far away. :evil:

Better monitor tech needs to come out or they should do what they are doing with LP records recently, a comeback for CRT?
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:35 am

Flying Fox wrote:Better monitor tech needs to come out or they should do what they are doing with LP records recently, a comeback for CRT?
Comeback? Pfft. Some of us never left.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:01 am

looks like they'll phase out IPS, MVA, etc. and just work on OLED
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:28 am

26" S-IPS on the way from LG

It's available for pre-order in the UK for about the same price as the Dell 2707WFP i.e. about £120 more than the 2408WFP.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:36 am

Yeah, the 24" panels will all be TN soon enough; in a couple of years, there won't be a non-TN panel to be found at any size below 30" (and maybe at all) except for some very expensive niche models and possibly some HDTV (1080) combo monitors. Unfortunately, it's going to be more than a couple of years before OLED monitors arrive at that size (and even longer before they have reasonable prices). The "quality" monitors will be LED-backlit TN panels; the rest will be crap with inflated and meaningless specs (sub-1ms OMG!!1one1)

If you want a quality non-TN panel, buy it soon.
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