The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:38 am

Vrock wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:Better monitor tech needs to come out or they should do what they are doing with LP records recently, a comeback for CRT?
Comeback? Pfft. Some of us never left.


You can still get high-end CRTs, but they are not cheap as they were back when CRTs were popular.

I do not really miss CRTs. They are nice for their advantages, but their drawbacks are what kills them for me.

I am still waiting for monitor technology to make display units that can do 200FPS and have rich range of colors without a problem.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:42 am

UberGerbil wrote:Yeah, the 24" panels will all be TN soon enough; in a couple of years, there won't be a non-TN panel to be found at any size below 30" (and maybe at all) except for some very expensive niche models and possibly some HDTV (1080) combo monitors. Unfortunately, it's going to be more than a couple of years before OLED monitors arrive at that size (and even longer before they have reasonable prices). The "quality" monitors will be LED-backlit TN panels; the rest will be crap with inflated and meaningless specs (sub-1ms OMG!!1one1)

If you want a quality non-TN panel, buy it soon.


You can still get non-TN panels. It is just they are getting marginalized (higher price tags) to cater towards demographics that desire their characters over TN panels. They are getting the same treatment that CRTs received once LCDs matured.

The majority of the market is quite content with TN-panels and they are cheaper to manufacture. It is a no-brainier for monitor manufacturers to shift resources towards TN panels.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:10 pm

MrJP wrote:26" S-IPS on the way from LG

It's available for pre-order in the UK for about the same price as the Dell 2707WFP i.e. about £120 more than the 2408WFP.

To me a 26" will be too large in terms of pixel size. Really 24" is pretty perfect for me in that regard.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:45 pm

SpotTheCat wrote:looks like they'll phase out IPS, MVA, etc. and just work on OLED


Works for me. Typing this on my 19" NEC MultiSync FE950+ CRT from ... 2001? I was very unhappy when CRTs started being phased out in favor of LCDs. Or actually, I didn't give a hoot that CRTs were being phased out - but it bothered me that CRT research was terminated in favor of LCD research. It has only been in the last year that I thought the quality of any LCD monitor was close to my CRT - and this is not a professional-grade model, nor do I find it perfect in any way! But even though still images finally look good, the huge flaws of fixed resolutions using a too-small pixel pitch, very low fixed refresh rates, input lag, flicker (which most people claim not to exist, because they don't understand how an LCD works), bad viewing angles *or* being kind of too slow, horribly implemented RTC done by marketing departments instead of engineers, "extended color gamuts" that don't even fill all of the color triangle of normal backlights (let alone a CRT's), and so forth... mean they still are not ready. LCDs have just not quite been ready ever since I first saw them - so if the industry moves on to OLED (like they have promised for many years now), which at least has the potential to supercede CRTs in most important aspects, I will be very happy. Then again, every mini-OLED I ever see (like on cell phones) looks like crap, so I'm not holding my breath.

I'd probably prefer the thin-panel multicathode CRTs, if anyone ever makes one.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:28 pm

Flying Fox wrote:To me a 26" will be too large in terms of pixel size. Really 24" is pretty perfect for me in that regard.


I've currently got a 1280x1024 19" at home and a 1600x1200 20" at work, and don't really notice the difference in dot pitch between them unless I go looking for it. The 26" and 24" 1920x1200 both lie within this range, so I don't imagine it would be a big factor for me. If a decent 24" S-IPS was available I'd probably lean towards it, just for the (likely) lower cost and higher WAF (Wife Approval Factor :D), but the LG looks like a nice upgrade if the reviews are favourable once it appears.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:35 pm

Saber Cherry wrote:Works for me. Typing this on my 19" NEC MultiSync FE950+ CRT from ... 2001? I was very unhappy when CRTs started being phased out in favor of LCDs. Or actually, I didn't give a hoot that CRTs were being phased out - but it bothered me that CRT research was terminated in favor of LCD research. It has only been in the last year that I thought the quality of any LCD monitor was close to my CRT - and this is not a professional-grade model, nor do I find it perfect in any way! But even though still images finally look good, the huge flaws of fixed resolutions using a too-small pixel pitch, very low fixed refresh rates, input lag, flicker (which most people claim not to exist, because they don't understand how an LCD works), bad viewing angles *or* being kind of too slow, horribly implemented RTC done by marketing departments instead of engineers, "extended color gamuts" that don't even fill all of the color triangle of normal backlights (let alone a CRT's), and so forth... mean they still are not ready. LCDs have just not quite been ready ever since I first saw them - so if the industry moves on to OLED (like they have promised for many years now), which at least has the potential to supercede CRTs in most important aspects, I will be very happy. Then again, every mini-OLED I ever see (like on cell phones) looks like crap, so I'm not holding my breath.

Don't you think that's kind of harsh? For probably 90-95% of computer users a TN panel works just fine. As someone said they're cheap and easier to manufacture. For everyone else who cares they can spend the extra money to get the better panels.

Even you have to admit that not all CRT's were created equal. Just due to the technology there was a whole lot more variability in CRT's than matured LCD's. Particularly after the CRT has aged. The screen will naturally darken. The high power electronic components age and change value. Certainly LCD's have their problems but I don't believe they are as severe as you're letting on. Modern LCD monitors are good enough. Again, most people don't need anything more than what current TN panels offer.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:03 pm

TN sucks. If you've ever used a high-quality PVA/MVA or IPS panel, it's obvious.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:15 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:TN sucks. If you've ever used a high-quality PVA/MVA or IPS panel, it's obvious.

While I would personally agree. Most people aren't going to notice and couldn't care less.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:21 pm

It's a matter of ignorance. If you have used a good 8-bit panel, then you can immediately detect how crappy a TN panel is. If you've never used a good panel, you may blindly assume that it's not as much better than TN as it actually it is.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:48 pm

Not really. It's more a factor of value. Certainly the more expensive monitor with a better panel is going to look better and there's probably quite a few people that will notice the difference. But the higher cost is going to turn the most common buyers away because to them the better value is going to be in the lower cost LCD. Take the price difference between the 2007WFP and the E207WFP. The E207WFP is currently going for $229.00 while the better 2007WFP is going for $399. A $170 difference. For any common person looking for such a monitor they are probably going to go for the cheaper LCD because it's a better value for them. Those that care can still have the better display but with a price premium. That's how it's always been for displays. Even CRT's.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:33 pm

Taddeusz wrote:Not really. It's more a factor of value. Certainly the more expensive monitor with a better panel is going to look better and there's probably quite a few people that will notice the difference. But the higher cost is going to turn the most common buyers away because to them the better value is going to be in the lower cost LCD. Take the price difference between the 2007WFP and the E207WFP. The E207WFP is currently going for $229.00 while the better 2007WFP is going for $399. A $170 difference. For any common person looking for such a monitor they are probably going to go for the cheaper LCD because it's a better value for them. Those that care can still have the better display but with a price premium. That's how it's always been for displays. Even CRT's.

As long as Joe/Jane Blow never sees a good monitor (which they probably won't), then this probably holds. But if they ever see them side-by-side... :o
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:25 am

Flying Fox wrote:As long as Joe/Jane Blow never sees a good monitor (which they probably won't), then this probably holds. But if they ever see them side-by-side... :o


As long as there's a fairly large price difference, it won't matter, though. Even if you know there's something better, if you think the cheaper one is "good enough" or fits the budget better.... you're going to choose the least expensive option.

C'mon, cheap and "good enough" is a driving principle of society! :lol:
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:54 am

SpotTheCat wrote:
crazybus wrote:The product image posted on Engadget is flawed. Rather than this:
http://i30.tinypic.com/eq9lcl.jpg
It should look like this:
http://i27.tinypic.com/2w1s70g.jpg

That is absolutely hilarious. Did you make that?
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JustAnEngineer wrote:It's a matter of ignorance. If you have used a good 8-bit panel, then you can immediately detect how crappy a TN panel is. If you've never used a good panel, you may blindly assume that it's not as much better than TN as it actually it is.
I fully agree with this statement. I think more people would spend the extra money on a good display if they compared them side by side. But alas, to the typical buyer, numbers sell. Why would anyone buy the current 2007WFP with its worthless 800:1 contrast ratio and horribly slow 16ms response time when they can have a 5000:1 contrast ratio and 2ms for 2/3rds the price? :roll:

I hope when it comes time to buy a new display there will be something worthwhile under $1000. I really don't see 24" TN panels taking off without further advances WRT viewing angles. Sadly, I might be proven wrong.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:18 am

crazybus wrote:I really don't see 24" TN panels taking off without further advances WRT viewing angles. Sadly, I might be proven wrong.


I'd recommend NOT looking at the current 24" panel offerings from the usual OEM suspects' websites (AU Optronics, ChiMei, LG). You.. uhh...wouldn't be happy.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:31 pm

Flying Fox wrote:But if they ever see them side-by-side... :o

Honestly, I disagree. Here at work, we might have...4 8-bit monitors out of the ~150. For regular work use, there is no perceivable difference. I have no problem with that difference, and I don't think anyone here at work does either.

The difference between analog and digital back when was a much bigger battle, and in that case it was always worth the extra $$ to get DVI. 6-bit vs 8-bit for office use? Not worth the difference at all. Especially when a 22" 6-bit is cheaper than a 20" 8-bit. I'd take the 22" here every time.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:18 pm

You're right that 6 bit vs 8 bit is a non-issue for the majority that are not doing any colour-sensitive work, but the big issue is the viewing angle problem. It's bad enough putting up with a small laptop screen with strong contrast variation from top to bottom - I'd hate to think what it would be like to have to use a large (20"+) TN panel every day.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:50 pm

MrJP wrote:You're right that 6 bit vs 8 bit is a non-issue for the majority that are not doing any colour-sensitive work, but the big issue is the viewing angle problem. It's bad enough putting up with a small laptop screen with strong contrast variation from top to bottom - I'd hate to think what it would be like to have to use a large (20"+) TN panel every day.


TN viewing angle problem is way overplayed as well. I have a TN-panel (Samsung 940B) that only dithers slightly if viewed at 80+ degrees both horizontal and vertically away from the center. I think the problem has more to do with general quality of monitor in question. I remember when viewing angles were terrible for early LCD displays (30+ degrees from center = severe discoloration and loss of contrast).
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:24 pm

Krogoth wrote:TN viewing angle problem is way overplayed as well.

All the TN panels I see when looking dead on at them are darker near the top and brighter near the bottom. The severity of this varies between panels but it's still not acceptable to me.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:02 pm

I'll wade into the 6-bit vs. 8-bit issue. I agree that most users probably won't notice, but I don't find temporal dithering in darker shades that tough to see. I'll admit that besides the temporal noise, gradients don't exhibit too many dithering artifacts so it doesn't scream 6-bit colour, but it's something that is noticable if you look closely. For example the blue background of TR exhibits visible noise on the 6-bit screen I'm currently using.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:57 pm

Before this, were ALL Dell UltraSharp monitors of the IPS/*VA panel type? Because I'm looking at this one:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/prod ... u=320-5293

Its only a 19-inch, but the price is great, I don't really require a ginormous display anyway, and the response time is nice and low. My only concern is what panel type it is. I think I've read enough articles over panel types, especially MADSHRIMP's buying guide, to determine that a TN probably isn't what I'm looking for in the long run.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:02 pm

Kurotetsu wrote:Before this, were ALL Dell UltraSharp monitors of the IPS/*VA panel type? Because I'm looking at this one:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/prod ... u=320-5293

Its only a 19-inch, but the price is great, I don't really require a ginormous display anyway, and the response time is nice and low. My only concern is what panel type it is. I think I've read enough articles over panel types, especially MADSHRIMP's buying guide, to determine that a TN probably isn't what I'm looking for in the long run.

The 17" and 19" models are, for a long time, using TN panels. However there are definitely better TN panels within those lines if you are lucky. I bought the 1707FP about (or more than?) a year ago. I got the Samsung TN-III panel and it was pretty good. OTOH I know someone who got 2x1909FPs at work and they were AUO TN panels. He said the colours were all washed out. :o

Edit: I didn't know what I was writing.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:32 pm

Flying Fox wrote:
Kurotetsu wrote:Before this, were ALL Dell UltraSharp monitors of the IPS/*VA panel type? Because I'm looking at this one:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/prod ... u=320-5293

Its only a 19-inch, but the price is great, I don't really require a ginormous display anyway, and the response time is nice and low. My only concern is what panel type it is. I think I've read enough articles over panel types, especially MADSHRIMP's buying guide, to determine that a TN probably isn't what I'm looking for in the long run.

The 17" and 19" models are long TN panels. However there are definitely better TN panels within those lines if you are lucky. I bought the 1707FP about (or more than?) a year ago. I got the Samsung TN-III panel and it was pretty good. OTOH I know someone who got 2x1909FPs at work and they were AUO TN panels. He said the colours were all washed out. :o


What exactly makes a 'long TN' panel better than a normal TN?

Also, is there some sort of database for looking that kind of information up (like panel type)? MADSHRIMP's article recommended digitalversus.com, but when I went to that site it didn't have any information on the 1908FP.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:15 pm

Well I got the Dell UltraSharp 2407WFP-HC 24'' LCD at work and all I can say is that it's crap. Definetely would take a CRT over it any day. It's way to obviuos that it's only a 6 bit display and the ghosting is pretty bad.

I was thinking of getting something like it for home, but I'll stick with my small 21" CRT (which I must admit is a little small). But I don't want to pay $700 for a crappy monitor.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:21 pm

spiritwalker2222 wrote:Well I got the Dell UltraSharp 2407WFP-HC 24'' LCD at work and all I can say is that it's crap. Definetely would take a CRT over it any day. It's way to obviuos that it's only a 6 bit display and the ghosting is pretty bad.

I was thinking of getting something like it for home, but I'll stick with my small 21" CRT (which I must admit is a little small). But I don't want to pay $700 for a crappy monitor.

What? Did you try tweaking the brightness/contrast and such?
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:25 pm

Kurotetsu wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:
Kurotetsu wrote:Before this, were ALL Dell UltraSharp monitors of the IPS/*VA panel type? Because I'm looking at this one:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/prod ... u=320-5293

Its only a 19-inch, but the price is great, I don't really require a ginormous display anyway, and the response time is nice and low. My only concern is what panel type it is. I think I've read enough articles over panel types, especially MADSHRIMP's buying guide, to determine that a TN probably isn't what I'm looking for in the long run.

The 17" and 19" models are long TN panels. However there are definitely better TN panels within those lines if you are lucky. I bought the 1707FP about (or more than?) a year ago. I got the Samsung TN-III panel and it was pretty good. OTOH I know someone who got 2x1909FPs at work and they were AUO TN panels. He said the colours were all washed out. :o


What exactly makes a 'long TN' panel better than a normal TN?

They're not "long TN" panels. They've used TN panels for a long time.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:29 pm

mattsteg wrote:
Kurotetsu wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:The 17" and 19" models are long TN panels. However there are definitely better TN panels within those lines if you are lucky. I bought the 1707FP about (or more than?) a year ago. I got the Samsung TN-III panel and it was pretty good. OTOH I know someone who got 2x1909FPs at work and they were AUO TN panels. He said the colours were all washed out. :o


What exactly makes a 'long TN' panel better than a normal TN?

They're not "long TN" panels. They've used TN panels for a long time.

Yeah I guess I should not have put it that way... :oops:
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:30 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
spiritwalker2222 wrote:Well I got the Dell UltraSharp 2407WFP-HC 24'' LCD at work and all I can say is that it's crap. Definetely would take a CRT over it any day. It's way to obviuos that it's only a 6 bit display and the ghosting is pretty bad.

I was thinking of getting something like it for home, but I'll stick with my small 21" CRT (which I must admit is a little small). But I don't want to pay $700 for a crappy monitor.

What? Did you try tweaking the brightness/contrast and such?

Also, using analog? Non-native resolution?
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:33 pm

spiritwalker2222 wrote:Well I got the Dell UltraSharp 2407WFP-HC 24'' LCD at work and all I can say is that it's crap. Definetely would take a CRT over it any day. It's way to obviuos that it's only a 6 bit display and the ghosting is pretty bad.

It uses an 8-bit S-PVA panel. I did read about it having very bad ghosting and high input lag. Not a gamers LCD for sure.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:03 pm

Flying Fox wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
spiritwalker2222 wrote:Well I got the Dell UltraSharp 2407WFP-HC 24'' LCD at work and all I can say is that it's crap. Definetely would take a CRT over it any day. It's way to obviuos that it's only a 6 bit display and the ghosting is pretty bad.

I was thinking of getting something like it for home, but I'll stick with my small 21" CRT (which I must admit is a little small). But I don't want to pay $700 for a crappy monitor.

What? Did you try tweaking the brightness/contrast and such?

Also, using analog? Non-native resolution?


I'm using digital all the way, and it's at it's native resolution. I've played with the brightness and contrast some what, maybe I'll play with it a bit more to see if that helps it out.

EDIT: I played with the contrast and brightness. Increasing the brightness helped a bit, but the sky on my wallpaper still looks like it has tree rings! I had to turn the brightness back down, other wise it's to hard on my eyes. Kind of reminds me of one of my first computers with EGA graphics (I think it was EGA, 16 colors?), just not so bad.
...time to update my signature.
spiritwalker2222
Gerbil XP
 
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:47 pm

spiritwalker2222 wrote:EDIT: I played with the contrast and brightness. Increasing the brightness helped a bit, but the sky on my wallpaper still looks like it has tree rings! I had to turn the brightness back down, other wise it's to hard on my eyes. Kind of reminds me of one of my first computers with EGA graphics (I think it was EGA, 16 colors?), just not so bad.
That kind of banding in what should be smooth gradients can be a symptom of 6bit panels (since they have to dither to get the full range of colors). But it can also be a sign of lossy compression in the source image, so you shouldn't immediately conclude anything about the panel without first testing with a known smooth gradient.
UberGerbil
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