The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:16 pm

UberGerbil wrote:
spiritwalker2222 wrote:EDIT: I played with the contrast and brightness. Increasing the brightness helped a bit, but the sky on my wallpaper still looks like it has tree rings! I had to turn the brightness back down, other wise it's to hard on my eyes. Kind of reminds me of one of my first computers with EGA graphics (I think it was EGA, 16 colors?), just not so bad.
That kind of banding in what should be smooth gradients can be a symptom of 6bit panels (since they have to dither to get the full range of colors). But it can also be a sign of lossy compression in the source image, so you shouldn't immediately conclude anything about the panel without first testing with a known smooth gradient.

You're saying a good quality monitor might show the imperfections of a picture? Say it isn't so :lol: (to some degree, some stuff is better watched in SD versus HD for this very reason (and I'm not talking about p0rn))>
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:28 pm

Yeah, in a past job I worked with people doing MPEG decoders so I got very sensitive to all the artifacts that show up from excessive compression. To this day I tend to get easily distracted by banding, crawl, etc; some sources are much worse than others (yet another reason I'm not willing to pay for digital cable). The worst content in terms of showing up the limitations of your compression scheme were fast-moving objects and smooth gradients, which meant that the highest bandwidth requirements were quick sports like basketball and hockey, and anything with a lot of skin tones (guess). Even more innocent content, just close-ups of faces or any shots in low light with lots of shades of near-black, really can turn your screen into something that looks more like a lava lamp.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:30 pm

Honestly our satellite is much better about compression artifacts than the cox digital cable here. ESPN HD looks pretty incredible and you have to put your face up pretty close to the screen to see them.

That said, Planet earth on HD DVD still looks a good bit better than it did on Discovery.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:09 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:Honestly our satellite is much better about compression artifacts than the cox digital cable here. ESPN HD looks pretty incredible and you have to put your face up pretty close to the screen to see them.

That said, Planet earth on HD DVD still looks a good bit better than it did on Discovery.
Yeah. It surprises a lot of people, I guess because we generally associate cable with high bandwidth so the expectation is that cable video won't be overcompressed, but the cable companies are always trying to cram one more channel into their pipe -- just in case that's what will tip you into buying a higher tier of service -- so they compress the bejezus out of everything. Even OTA digital is better than cable. And yeah, the high-def disc formats are going to be best of what is generally available. Heck, upscaled DVD usually looks better to me than digital cable does.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:33 pm

To be fair, I think the earlier 2407WFP-HC with the crappier firmware was pretty bad though.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:34 am

I tested it out with a control picture on my CRT and on the LCD. It's definitely a problem with the LCD. I looked for a manufacture date, but couldn't find one. I did find it's revision, it's A00. Sounds like the original batch.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:30 pm

Taddeusz wrote:
Saber Cherry wrote:...

Don't you think that's kind of harsh? For probably 90-95% of computer users a TN panel works just fine. As someone said they're cheap and easier to manufacture. For everyone else who cares they can spend the extra money to get the better panels.

Even you have to admit that not all CRT's were created equal. Just due to the technology there was a whole lot more variability in CRT's than matured LCD's. Particularly after the CRT has aged. The screen will naturally darken. The high power electronic components age and change value. Certainly LCD's have their problems but I don't believe they are as severe as you're letting on. Modern LCD monitors are good enough. Again, most people don't need anything more than what current TN panels offer.


Maybe I am being a little harsh. But first off, 90% of computer users I saw - back when CRTs were still used everywhere - had them set at the default 60Hz refresh rate, which made me nauseated, and didn't seem to notice at all. In fact, when I had to help someone, and they took too long to understand what I was talking about, eventually I would have to adjust their monitor to reasonable settings so that I did not get a headache in the meantime... and typically, they claimed to not notice a change from 'before' to 'after'. So it's pretty irrelevant what 90% of people think, when they are so unobservant, uncaring, or just dumb.

My parents, for example, bought a Samsung "HDTV" (actually 1366x768) which is incapable of 1:1 pixel ratios, but rather stretches every image to fill the screen, because the engineers were retarded. When fed an SD 16:9 aspect ratio input (with black bars on the bottom and top), it will dutifully stretch it to fit the screen, making the black bars wider, too. And there is no setting that circumvents this idiocy. Why do I bring this up? Because my parents didn't notice at all. It took me about 10 minutes, including flipping through channels to find one with a full moon, and getting them to turn their heads sideways, to convince them that maybe circles came out distorted as ovals.

Non-discerning customers will buy anything and not even realize that what they got was awesome or terrible until someone discerning tells them (and usually it takes a bit of effort, if it was terrible). So they really don't matter from a theoretical or practical standpoint, since they buy anything and don't contribute any useful thoughts. What is important is what the other 10% think, since they can influence the 90% before they make purchases.

Even you have to admit that not all CRT's were created equal. Just due to the technology there was a whole lot more variability in CRT's than matured LCD's. Particularly after the CRT has aged. The screen will naturally darken.

I said not all CRTs were equal, and that mine was upper-tier but not pro-grade. But as they age, both CRTs and LCDs dim. And I think CRTs have far less random variation than LCDs - you don't have to worry about stuck on/off pixels, for example, and the problems of nonuniform lighting and randomly patchy (around the edges) backlight bleed are similarly nonexistent. In terms of uniformity, CRTs come out better.

Really, it is only the small size, high mass, X-rays, and very gradual increase in blurriness over time (on the right side)... and occasional faint, yet annoying, high-pitched noise (maybe 1/20 times I turn on the monitor) of my CRT that make me consider LCDs. But they just fail to be better, after all these years, in any way directly related to performance except for blurriness (LCDs are [or should be] always perfectly sharp at native resolution) and viewable area (my desk would not support a 24" CRT). Despite my initial hopes for the technology, LCDs are - and it seems that they always will be - worse in every other (performance-related) way, though I expect/hope LED-LCDs to at least exceed CRTs in color gamut. Oh, and the contrast ratio seems about equal to CRTs now, too... despite the fact that LCD "contrast ratios" typically have more to do with the largest number known by anyone in the marketing department than anything grounded in reality.


A bigger question than why I think most LCDs fail is... why do you care whether 90% of people are satisfied with something? Most people are satisfied with Vista. Before that, most people who had WinME were satisfied with it. Before DVD, most people were satisfied with VHS. And before CD, most people were satisfied with audio tape. Most people are just generally satisfied with what they have, no matter what it is. And whether these people's opinions are more or less valid than ours, the opinions of such people have no place or weight in a forum of people who are enthusiastic about increasing quality and performance through technological advancement... just as the opinions of vegans have no place or weight in a meat-processing plant design forum, or the opinions of radical fundamentalist Christians have no place or weight in evolutionary biology or geophysics forums, or the opinions of someone like me (who abhors rap music) have no place or weight in a rap music forum.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:23 pm

Saber Cherry wrote:A bigger question than why I think most LCDs fail is... why do you care whether 90% of people are satisfied with something? Most people are satisfied with Vista. Before that, most people who had WinME were satisfied with it. Before DVD, most people were satisfied with VHS. And before CD, most people were satisfied with audio tape. Most people are just generally satisfied with what they have, no matter what it is. And whether these people's opinions are more or less valid than ours, the opinions of such people have no place or weight in a forum of people who are enthusiastic about increasing quality and performance through technological advancement... just as the opinions of vegans have no place or weight in a meat-processing plant design forum, or the opinions of radical fundamentalist Christians have no place or weight in evolutionary biology or geophysics forums, or the opinions of someone like me (who abhors rap music) have no place or weight in a rap music forum.


QFFT.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:06 pm

It's arguable that with the future of increased availability and proliferation of TN panels (as you predict), TN panels will improve and become better than you're accustomed, perhaps on-par with the other panel types. It's also quite possible that some LCD making companies may take note at the ubiquitous trend of TN panels, and use that as an opportunity to market a screen with a non-TN panel, that the product would sort of advertise itself as the "city upon a hill" of LCD's. I really wouldn't worry too much about it.

That said, those links rule! Looks like my laptop monitor is badass (with the exception of it's response time), but my Hanns-G HG281 27.5" monitor at home does an epic fail at "good monitoring." I got owned. For shame. :(

Nah, really it's a pretty good monitor, unless you try and... er... huddle around and watch stuff on it. The viewing angles on it are really weak, otherwise it provides a very nice gaming experience, etc. It's nice. :)
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:46 am

Voldenuit wrote:
Saber Cherry wrote:A bigger question than why I think most LCDs fail is... why do you care whether 90% of people are satisfied with something? Most people are satisfied with Vista. Before that, most people who had WinME were satisfied with it. Before DVD, most people were satisfied with VHS. And before CD, most people were satisfied with audio tape. Most people are just generally satisfied with what they have, no matter what it is. And whether these people's opinions are more or less valid than ours, the opinions of such people have no place or weight in a forum of people who are enthusiastic about increasing quality and performance through technological advancement... just as the opinions of vegans have no place or weight in a meat-processing plant design forum, or the opinions of radical fundamentalist Christians have no place or weight in evolutionary biology or geophysics forums, or the opinions of someone like me (who abhors rap music) have no place or weight in a rap music forum.


QFFT.

I definitely wouldn't put Windows Me in the same category as the rest of those, but generally I agree.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:08 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Voldenuit wrote:
Saber Cherry wrote:A bigger question than why I think most LCDs fail is... why do you care whether 90% of people are satisfied with something? Most people are satisfied with Vista. Before that, most people who had WinME were satisfied with it. Before DVD, most people were satisfied with VHS. And before CD, most people were satisfied with audio tape. Most people are just generally satisfied with what they have, no matter what it is. And whether these people's opinions are more or less valid than ours, the opinions of such people have no place or weight in a forum of people who are enthusiastic about increasing quality and performance through technological advancement... just as the opinions of vegans have no place or weight in a meat-processing plant design forum, or the opinions of radical fundamentalist Christians have no place or weight in evolutionary biology or geophysics forums, or the opinions of someone like me (who abhors rap music) have no place or weight in a rap music forum.


QFFT.

I definitely wouldn't put Windows Me in the same category as the rest of those, but generally I agree.


Good points. However, there is nothing on the foreseeable horizon that will match power consumption, mass and volume of LCDs that also has similar color accuracy and response time as CRTs.

LCDs from a practical standpoint are better then CRTs. I know quite well that CRTs have superior color accuracy and response time. For what cost? Far greater consumption, mass and volume. Not really winners from non-professional users.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:29 pm

SEDs are supposed to be in the same realm as LCDs for those criteria, except that some patent punks are holding the cards. :evil:
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:38 am

Well, hey. If you don't do your homework before buying your panel, you can always sue. :roll:
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:46 am

UberGerbil wrote:Well, hey. If you don't do your homework before buying your panel, you can always sue. :roll:

Not surprising. The same issue came up before with the Mac Books. Apparently Apple still hasn't gotten the message that it's users want full 24-bit color screens.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:48 pm

Taddeusz wrote:Apparently Apple still hasn't gotten the message that it's users want full 24-bit color screens.

...when in fact 95% of them don't care whether it's 18 or 24.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:43 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Taddeusz wrote:Apparently Apple still hasn't gotten the message that it's users want full 24-bit color screens.

...when in fact 95% of them don't care whether it's 18 or 24.
True. But I wish all mfrs (including all the monitor companies, not just the OEMs) would be completely honest about the type of panel and the true bitdepth. They can bury it in the tech specs, but I want to know. Most people are only going to worry about the price, and won't care; those of us who do will find out one way or the other, but the harder they make it the less disposed I am towards buying from that maker.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:57 pm

If they start putting "6-bit" and "8-bit" on their products, people will instinctively flock to the "more bits".
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:06 pm

FireGryphon wrote:If they start putting "6-bit" and "8-bit" on their products, people will instinctively flock to the "more bits".
Which will cost more. Either they price them high enough that that means more total profit for them, or most people look at the price and flock back.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:25 pm

This is NOT a comment on Apple customers (who are a superset which merely includes brainwashed zombies), but on Apple marketing: Apple targets snobbish, technologically illiterate people who care more about image than performance. Those people get what they deserve - image, not performance. If people happily buy computers that support "millions of colors", and they indeed support 0.262 million colors, where's the harm? That is some number of millions of colors. In this case, "millions of colors" is the unit of measure, and it supports .262 of them.

People who buy non-Apple products, perhaps, like to buy things with actual numbers and specifications. And some people who buy Apple products do as well; those people didn't fall into this trap in the first place. But if a consumer enjoys being fed crap and told it is caviar, I really don't see any harm.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:39 pm

The people who are complaining are probably either video or photo professionals. People who do actually care about and need the quality of 8-bit panels. Nobody else really needs 8-bit panels. The operative word there is "need". People who really need the added bit depth quite often are using Apple computers because that's what the majority of people in the video and photo fields are using. Even though the 20" iMac is probably considered an entry level machine it's still a little surprising that Apple of all companies would go for a lower cost TN panel in a product that is going to be used by professionals who may not be able to afford a better machine but who still need the better quality image.

Mom and pop might not care how many colors their monitor displays but a professional who depends on it for their livelihood would be quite put off when they discover their display is giving them poor image quality. Since Apple doesn't list the specifications for the panel even a professional who is going to care can't know he's not getting what he's expecting to be a high quality panel. It's Apple so it should be high quality. But Apple is cutting corners and not letting people know they're doing so.
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:07 pm

If somebody buys something - entering a contract, so to speak - without being interested in the details, and the contract doesn't list details, they don't really have any ground to complain. If I bought a hard drive listed as having "lots of space" and tried to sue because it didn't have 1.21 jigawatts, I'd be laughed at. Who are these photo professionals who buy a crucial product upon which their livelihood depends without even bothering to see what they're buying? I'm thinking... either a) they don't exist or b) they're so incompetent, this is the least of their problems or c) they're unaware of the whole issue, and always will be. In any case, I have no sympathy for them.

And since when is "Apple" synonymous with "quality"? In my experience, it has always meant "overpriced", "false/inflated claims" (like 'we are 573x faster than Wintel and 100% secure'), and "form over function".
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Re: The descent to crapness is upon us: Dell 2009W

Postposted on Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:40 pm

Taddeusz wrote:The people who are complaining are probably either video or photo professionals.

Yeah, I agree - and to me, I'd rather have saved the money than spent another $200 on my 20" monitor. It looks good enough, and much better than any other LCD I've actually used. Though as you rightly point out, photo/video pros really do *need* the better color quality.

Hell, if HDTV's had the same quality as my 20" LCD monitor, I'd gladly save some money there, too.
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