Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:33 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
mattsteg wrote:I wouldn't really call 35mm wide, nor would I call 28mm wide on a crop body. It's rather silly to include them when we're not talking about full frame cameras.
Your random numbers and arbitrary groupings are rather meaningless. "Number of lenses" is kind of pointless, as is calling a 56mm 35mm equiv field of view "wide".
The numbers are not random and the groupings are industry standard. They are facts. I counted only 24mm and wider lenses in my tally, as you could see from the links that I included.
Your numbers have changed since I replied...Originally you counted 10 primes. I don't find your manipulation of your count amusing at all. Also, 24mm is midwayish between the diagnonal of the 1.6 sensor (i.e. "normal") and 35mm equiv, which is traditionally where "wide" starts. Including them is pretty marginal.

More dubious still is your categorization of 85mm (135mm equiv!) as a "normal" focal length. Even on a full frame body that's a mild tele. Also, you've apparently counted 35mm as wide in your nikon count but not in your (revised) canon count.

Arbitrary? Absolutely yes. Factual? Only if you define whatever you choose as "fact". I'm also terribly unamused by your quick edit that you're apparently trying to cover up.
JustAnEngineer wrote:Truly, no-one needs five dozen different auto-focus lenses to have a complete kit. However, one does notice the absence of large-aperture wide-angle and standard prime lenses from Nikon's AF-S lineup.

If you are going to invest enough money to buy half a dozen really good Nikon lenses, then you can certainly afford the $1625 Nikon D300 camera body, which has more functionality with the old mechanically-driven lenses. That brings us back to my original point about the Nikon line. If you spend the money to get the mid-range or high-end camera bodies, Nikon offers excellent cameras and lenses. The entry-level D40 and D60 are just rather limited.
Yeah, they're limited, but at the same time for their target market they're quite sufficient. There are plenty of sub-thousand dollar bodies that work with what, in the overall schem of things, are rather specialist lenses. The absence of fast wide primes is a weakness, but canon only has 1 fast wide (on crop) prime, so it's hardly a dramatic strength of theirs. The rest of their wide primes are no faster than Nikon (and canon) zooms, and are probably all matched or exceeded in image quality by the Nikon 14-24 alone (which I've seen reputed as the best wide angle lens, image quality-wise, period by some sources) and for practical purposes by other lenses as well. Yes, the weight is more, but you're not losing anything in quality or speed. The real weakness is more in the midrange where there are more fast primes available and more need for them. Canon's lineup has an advantage there, regardless of what Nikon camera you have.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:57 am

mattsteg wrote:Your numbers have changed since I replied...Originally you counted 10 primes. I don't find your manipulation of your count amusing at all.
I changed that in the first two minutes after I posted it, expecting that 35mm probably wasn't wide enough for your tastes. Your reply was 45 minutes later. Had I edited the message after there was a reply, you would see an "edited by" tag at the bottom of the message.


The fact remains that there are more than twice as many currently-produced Canon EF lenses that work in full automatic with all of the entry-level EOS Rebel cameras than there are Nikkor AF-S lenses that auto-focus with the comparably-priced entry-level Nikon cameras. The $1625 Nikon D300 is a terrific camera, the $3000 Nikon D700 is wonderful, and Nikon makes some great lenses, but I'd give the Nikon D60 camera and down a miss, at least until Nikon eventually updates their entire lens line to use electronics. At the current rate, that should happen before 2020.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:07 am

the fact of the matter is that the Canon 40D is your best choice. not just any 40D though.. it would have to be one that came from wisconsin.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:10 am

Danny, I believe that you're off your rocker to be so keen to dump your very new EOS 40D for the 50D. What are you going to do when the replacement for the 5D finally arrives?
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:11 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:Danny, I believe that you're off your rocker to be so keen to dump your very new EOS 40D for the 50D. What are you going to do when the replacement for the 5D finally arrives?

dump the 50D and get the 5D II of course. :D
.. anyways.. i'm mostly joking. I'd probably part with the 40D for a decent price, but the first thing I'm going to do is part with my XT and the 28-135mm IS lens that impressed me much less than everyone else it seems.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:16 am

I haven't used the 28-135 except in the store. I bought my EOS 40D with the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM lens, instead.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:22 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:I haven't used the 28-135 except in the store. I bought my EOS 40D with the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM lens, instead.

any dust problems?

I have 17-85mm that typically gets bad reviews for the distortion at the wide end.. but I think its much nicer than the 28-135. once you get up to 24mm its sweet.
the odd thing is that the review i read of the 28-135mm showed less of a CA problem than the 17-85, however in my experience the opposite was true.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:30 pm

danny e. wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:Danny, I believe that you're off your rocker to be so keen to dump your very new EOS 40D for the 50D. What are you going to do when the replacement for the 5D finally arrives?

dump the 50D and get the 5D II of course. :D
You might want to wait until next week, then. The announcement is due September 17.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:40 pm

woah and this will work with my lenses http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... 1665531176
full frame sensor, 24 mega pixels blah blah blah
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:52 pm

Heh. Nikon's D3x (unannounced, but a firmware update revealed a lot of details) has a full-frame 24MP sensor. I wonder if it's the same sensor.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:01 pm

SpotTheCat wrote:Heh. Nikon's D3x (unannounced, but a firmware update revealed a lot of details) has a full-frame 24MP sensor. I wonder if it's the same sensor.

Sony is making the sensor for Nikon's D300, or was it D3, so I wouldn't be surprised. It's the same sensor that's in the Alpha 700.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:11 pm

titan wrote:
SpotTheCat wrote:Heh. Nikon's D3x (unannounced, but a firmware update revealed a lot of details) has a full-frame 24MP sensor. I wonder if it's the same sensor.

Sony is making the sensor for Nikon's D300, or was it D3, so I wouldn't be surprised. It's the same sensor that's in the Alpha 700.

Most of Nikon's DSLRs use or have used Sony sensors. They only ones that I'm not sure about are a few of the high-end models.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:50 pm

crazybus wrote:
titan wrote:
SpotTheCat wrote:Heh. Nikon's D3x (unannounced, but a firmware update revealed a lot of details) has a full-frame 24MP sensor. I wonder if it's the same sensor.

Sony is making the sensor for Nikon's D300, or was it D3, so I wouldn't be surprised. It's the same sensor that's in the Alpha 700.

Most of Nikon's DSLRs use or have used Sony sensors. They only ones that I'm not sure about are a few of the high-end models.

The D3 is Nikon's flagship camera body, and the D3x is it's unreleased upgrade.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:37 pm

SpotTheCat wrote:The D3 is Nikon's flagship camera body, and the D3x is it's unreleased upgrade.

Yeah I'd say it's highly likely that the D3x will have the same sensor as the Alpha 900. I was more referring to the older D2X/D2Xs/D2H etc. models. As far as the D3x goes, I think it's more of a complimentary model to the D3, not an direct replacement "upgrade".
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:51 am

crazybus wrote:
SpotTheCat wrote:The D3 is Nikon's flagship camera body, and the D3x is it's unreleased upgrade.

Yeah I'd say it's highly likely that the D3x will have the same sensor as the Alpha 900. I was more referring to the older D2X/D2Xs/D2H etc. models. As far as the D3x goes, I think it's more of a complimentary model to the D3, not an direct replacement "upgrade".

Yeah. 12MP is more than plenty for a lot of things, and the immense advantages that keeping the pixel count on the D3 down gave it in other areas isn't going away.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:45 pm

The fact remains that there are more than twice as many currently-produced Canon EF lenses that work in full automatic with all of the entry-level EOS Rebel cameras than there are Nikkor AF-S lenses that auto-focus with the comparably-priced entry-level Nikon cameras.

Yeah, it's a fact, but so what? I was just idly browsing Canon lenses and the word "redundancy" kept going off in my head. How many ~70mm-~300mm lenses do they have, anyhow? And why are there so few lenses that go to 18mm?

What's REALLY important is "what range can they cover" combined with "how well" and "how much". How come Canon needs so many more lenses than Nikon to do the same thing?

EDIT: Just to add more detail, if you want a good mid-to-telephoto zoom, your options encompass two 50-200's, a 55-200, four70-200's plus two 70-210's, two 70-300's, three 75-300's, three 80-200's, two 90-300's, a 100-200, three 100-300's and one 100-400mm lens. Sure, there's a wild variety of image stabilization and USM and wide apertures and such, but I'm only referring to product overlap with one question in mind: Does having to choose among a half-dozen to a dozen lenses really constitute a significant advantage over competing options?

Now, perhaps this overabundance of choices is a positive thing to some. I'm only trying to suggest that, for a beginner, the sort of person likely to purchase an inexpensive Canon DSLR, the huge landscape of lens options could possibly be a little staggering and imposing.

Remember, we're not talking about pros, here. Any pro or seriously invested amateur could skim through a Canon lens list, as I just did, and instantly pick out important details that would be Greek to a beginner or casual hobbyist, or more likely already have a solid grasp of what lenses are of what worth and quality. In other words, there are ups and downs to everything, and Canon's huge line could be a boon to some and a chore to others.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:59 am

SPOOFE wrote:
The fact remains that there are more than twice as many currently-produced Canon EF lenses that work in full automatic with all of the entry-level EOS Rebel cameras than there are Nikkor AF-S lenses that auto-focus with the comparably-priced entry-level Nikon cameras.

Yeah, it's a fact, but so what? I was just idly browsing Canon lenses and the word "redundancy" kept going off in my head. How many ~70mm-~300mm lenses do they have, anyhow? And why are there so few lenses that go to 18mm?

actually there are as many that go to 18 or 17 as there are 70-300.
I wish some were fast 15-85 or 15-105 lenses.. but i suppose people buying cropped cameras are less likely to buy 1000K+ lenses.
However.. given the new ~ $700 18-200 from Canon... which seems to be a direct answer to Nikon, they should have taken it a step further and did 15-200 or even 15-135 would have been better imo.

oh well..
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:46 am

SPOOFE wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:The fact remains that there are more than twice as many currently-produced Canon EF lenses that work in full automatic with all of the entry-level EOS Rebel cameras than there are Nikkor AF-S lenses that auto-focus with the comparably-priced entry-level Nikon cameras.
How come Canon needs so many more lenses than Nikon to do the same thing?
It's not that Canon users necessarily need to do the same thing with more lenses. It's that Canon's entire lens lineup of EF mount lenses made since 1987 is fully-functional with their entry-level DSLRs. This includes the lenses made for EOS film cameras, and multiple levels of price and quality.

Look at the 50mm prime lenses available from Canon, for example: $85 EF 50mm f/1.8, $240 EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, $325 EF 50mm f/1.4 USM, and $1400 EF 50mm f/1.2L USM. I doubt that anyone would need to own more than one of these four lenses, but you can choose which one suits your needs based on budget, weight, and quality. Neither the $105 AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D nor the $290 AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D 50mm prime lenses available from Nikon auto-focuses with the entry-level Nikon cameras.

Nikon started slowly transitioning its lens lineup from the old mechanically-driven lenses to all-electronic AF-S lenses in 1996. They'll get there eventually, or maybe some day they will offer the mechanical drive capabilities from the excellent $1625 D300 camera on the more-affordable entry-level camera bodies.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:00 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:Look at the 50mm prime lenses available from Canon, for example: $85 EF 50mm f/1.8, $240 EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, $325 EF 50mm f/1.4 USM, and $1400 EF 50mm f/1.2L USM. I doubt that anyone would need to own more than one of these four lenses, but you can choose which one suits your needs based on budget, weight, and quality.
Really? You don't think anyone would want both a macro and a prime that's almost 2 stops faster?
JustAnEngineer wrote:Nikon started slowly transitioning its lens lineup from the old mechanically-driven lenses to all-electronic AF-S lenses in 1996. They'll get there eventually, or maybe some day they will offer the mechanical drive capabilities from the excellent $1625 D300 camera on the more-affordable entry-level camera bodies.
I'm really getting tired of your continued effort to be misleading here. It's like Nikon killed your firstborn or something. Hell, why not pick the D3 to be even more deceptive?

Whining that "maybe Nikon will some day offer the mechanical drive capabilities from the excellent $1625 D300 camera on the more-affordable entry-level camera bodies." when you can go to, for example, bhphoto, and order a brand new Nikon body with integrated motor for over $1000 less than that (or a couple of other, different body choices still under $1000) is pretty damned dishonest.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:28 pm

mattsteg wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:Look at the 50mm prime lenses available from Canon, for example: $85 EF 50mm f/1.8, $240 EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, $325 EF 50mm f/1.4 USM, and $1400 EF 50mm f/1.2L USM. I doubt that anyone would need to own more than one of these four lenses, but you can choose which one suits your needs based on budget, weight, and quality.
Really? You don't think anyone would want both a macro and a prime that's almost 2 stops faster?
No. I don't believe that anyone would want the 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro lens at all. It has a 1:2 maximum magnification unless you add the $250 Life size converter EF.

I believe that one would be better off with the $400 EF-S 60mm f/2.8 macro, $490 EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM or $1300 EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro USM, which can all focus close enough to achieve 1:1 magnification.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:39 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
mattsteg wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:Look at the 50mm prime lenses available from Canon, for example: $85 EF 50mm f/1.8, $240 EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro, $325 EF 50mm f/1.4 USM, and $1400 EF 50mm f/1.2L USM. I doubt that anyone would need to own more than one of these four lenses, but you can choose which one suits your needs based on budget, weight, and quality.
Really? You don't think anyone would want both a macro and a prime that's almost 2 stops faster?
No. I don't believe that anyone would want the 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro lens at all. It has a 1:2 maximum magnification unless you add the $250 Life size converter EF.

I believe that one would be better off with the $400 EF-S 60mm f/2.8 macro, $490 EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM or $1300 EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro USM, which can all focus close enough to achieve 1:1 magnification.

So why mention it as all except as an example of your vaunted large lineup of lenses being bloated by the presence of a lot of useless or redundant glass?

Still waiting on your excuse for dishonestly misrepresenting the cost of entry to nikon in-body af motors.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:51 pm

It's that Canon's entire lens lineup of EF mount lenses made since 1987 is fully-functional with their entry-level DSLRs. This includes the lenses made for EOS film cameras, and multiple levels of price and quality.

Yes, I noticed you said this earlier. You can tell I noticed it because I quoted it. You didn't answer my question: So what?
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:01 am

mattsteg wrote: I'm really getting tired of your continued effort to be misleading here. It's like Nikon killed your firstborn or something.

oh, come on.
everyone knows Nikon is evil.
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Re: Upgrade from 6 to 12 MP DSLR

Postposted on Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:46 am

mattsteg wrote:It's like Nikon killed your firstborn or something.


My guess is that Nikon shot his firstborn.

*rimshot*
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