Arguments against U2711?

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Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:12 pm

My small business has a coupon for a 20% on monitors like the U2711; it expires tonight. Can anyone convince me that it's overkill for my needs?

I don't do any serious photography or other graphic arts, but I create a lot of statstical graphs with lots of color and density. Does this argue for a IPS panel? I'm doing a lot of writing in the next two or three months, including finishing my dissertation that is about 30% graphs. I really benefit when I can see more of the paper at once, which argues for a large monitor. I have dual ~20" TN monitors now that are occassionally cramping me when looking at a lot of graphs simultaneously. I remember JBI or UberGerbil writing that an IPS is nice for large monitors, because the viewing angle change a lot from the center to the edge. Other than writing and graphing, I spend a lot of time coding with two IDEs open at the same time (one for Visual Studio and one for R).

Basically I'm looking for any arguments that a $950 shipped monitor is overkill for me (even if the monitor is a beautiful technological achievement). In other words, this is similar to talking down a newbie from an SLC SSD and Core i7 980 to a Caviar Black and an Athlon X2, because the latter is plenty for his specific tasks.

Any reason to suspect that large IPS monitors will be noticeably cheaper or more power efficient in the next 6-12 months? This coupon does knock off $220+
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:25 pm

I vote it's overkill. I also vote that if I had one it would make me very happy. Keep that in mind, what you're really buying for is your satisfaction and so if it's worth it to you, get it!
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:27 pm

Go for it. I've used its 24" little brother some, and I can tell you that your eyes will thank you.

Yeah, it's probably overkill, but that coupon sounds like a good deal and I doubt you'll get such a nice monitor for that price anytime soon.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:28 pm

grantmeaname wrote:I vote it's overkill.
Do you think the 27" size or the IPS is overkill?
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:45 pm

In my opinion I would rather have two U2410s over one U2711. Now... I wouldn't complain either way. In total you would have greater resolution to work on. Then there's the natural benefit that working with two monitors has on your work flow. This would sort of depend on if you have a single window that needs to be very large or multiple windows.

Personally I don't think you can go overkill on a monitor if you stand to have any tangible benefit. It sounds like you, sometimes, can get that benefit. Unless you would be hurting financially with the purchase.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:56 pm

wibeasley wrote:Do you think the 27" size or the IPS is overkill?

The IPS. I have a 28" TN monitor, and it's absolutely amazing. It's a little lower res (1920*1200) but it's so wonderful! I couldn't be happier with it. The viewing angle difference isn't noticeable really, and it only cost me $320. Airmantharp has one too, and so do two or three other regulars, if you want further opinions.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:00 pm

They had one on sale for 799$. I bought it. Got it last week.

1) I can read pdf's fullsize with the pages of a book or magazine side by side.

2) I am giving Splitview a try and I can lock one window on the left half and one on the right and I seem to be dong fine with a 2nd monitor (my old 22" is still on the floor awaiting a desk re-orginization. Most windows are way too wide without splitview - http://www.splitview.com/

3) I have two 24" Samsungs at work and prefer working from home on the 27".

4) I'm not a graphic artist and don't care about the color gamut etc.

5) I do programming. I like 1440 pixels vertical. More code to see at once. TN monitors pivoted can give you more length, but look like crap.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:05 pm

I spent 30+ minutes tonight reading an old 1989 article on pdf, whose journal is still using crappy low-res scans for their electronic copies. I was constantly zooming and scanning, and like NotParker said, I really would benefit with a big monitor.

I remembered the coupon incorrectly. It expires tomorrow.
Skrying wrote:In my opinion I would rather have two U2410s over one U2711. Now... I wouldn't complain either way.
That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that price comparison, but I see what you're saying. Since I already have a decent TN monitor (and a non-Eyefinity gpu), I was planning for dual monitors. I guess the comparison is really [27" + 20"] vs [24" + 24"]. In that case, would you prefer the U2711?
grantmeaname wrote:I have a 28" TN monitor, and it's absolutely amazing...it only cost me $320.
That's a tempting alternative for 1/3 the price. I wish I was more confident that I'd benefit from the color improvement. I'm not sure I've even seen a non-TN monitor. I've been to a Microcenter and BB in the past few months for other purchases, but they've never any available to look at that weren't TN. At least the Microcenter people knew what I was talking about when asked about their IPS vs TN availability.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:10 pm

Another question. I assume my 8600GT can handle 2560x1440 + 1680x1050. (I don't really mind spending another $100 on something like a 5670, but I really like my passively-cooled Accelero heatsink).
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:23 pm

wibeasley wrote:That's a tempting alternative for 1/3 the price. I wish I was more confident that I'd benefit from the color improvement. I'm not sure I've even seen a non-TN monitor. I've been to a Microcenter and BB in the past few months for other purchases, but they've never any available to look at that weren't TN. At least the Microcenter people knew what I was talking about when asked about their IPS vs TN availability.


Did they have the Apple Cinema 30" or one of the brand new iMacs? That's the only IPS panels I've ever seen in person, but they've always had both in stock.

Also, keep in mind that size of the document is determined by dpi of the monitor, not its size; thus, a 28" 1920*1200 is much "bigger" than a 30" 2560*1600 or a 27" 2560*1440, simply because there are fewer pixels to take up that space.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:38 pm

grantmeaname wrote:Did they have the Apple Cinema 30" or one of the brand new iMacs? That's the only IPS panels I've ever seen in person, but they've always had both in stock.
Ah, that's really helpful. I remember seeing a big (maybe around 27") all-in-one-box Mac. It looked very impressive and I asked the BB guy if it was IPS or TN. He didn't understand the distinction. Unfortunately I got distracted then and didn't write down the model number to check at home. I only saw a basic Mac interface, and couldn't compare it to a TN screen for the type of graphs I look at. It certainly caught my attention and I wondered if it was the quality of the panel or some eye candy the Mac OS uses.
grantmeaname wrote:Also, keep in mind that size of the document is determined by dpi of the monitor, not its size; thus, a 28" 1920*1200 is much "bigger" than a 30" 2560*1600 or a 27" 2560*1440, simply because there are fewer pixels to take up that space.
I understand that the dot-pitch affects the size of the fixed-size GUI components like tabs and button images. But I didn't think it really affects the size of Word or PDF text when I zoom to different levels. I assumed those types of programs scaled the text effectively. Am I wrong?
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:40 pm

wibeasley wrote:Another question. I assume my 8600GT can handle 2560x1440 + 1680x1050. (I don't really mind spending another $100 on something like a 5670, but I really like my passively-cooled Accelero heatsink).


Your 8600gt will do fine.

Honestly, I think an IPS is overkill for your needs. I'd try and check out a larger TN and see if the color change at normal angles bothers you* before you drop a giant chunk of change on an IPS, or at the very least, try and find some of the few remaining M/PVA panels (or a cheaper IPS...I don't see the 27" as a particularly good value compared to the 30" and 24" offerings). I would undoubtedly get an IPS/*VA panel if you're going to consume media on it though.

*For the record, I have 24" MVAs at home and a 22" TN at work, and the TN annoys me even though I'm in an IDE 90% of the time.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:01 am

I would say that if you can spring the $950, do it. You won't harm your eyes by going for the higher quality.

Conversely, if you are asking this question because you haven't been able to justify that much money -- for example, if it means eating Ramen and celery for the next six months -- then the benefit won't be as good as you think, and you should pick up another TN. You can always upgrade later after getting past your grad school days and into a real job.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:02 am

Everyone always says that's difficult or annoying to regress back to a TN after using an IPS or PVA. Since my other monitor will still be TN, I almost think I should get a big TN instead of something like the U2711, so the other one won't annoy me. It would be hard for me to justify getting two IPSes and discarding two decent TNs.
arsenhazzard wrote:or at the very least, try and find some of the few remaining M/PVA panels (or a cheaper IPS...I don't see the 27" as a particularly good value compared to the 30" and 24" offerings).
The coupon applies to the 3007WFPHC also. Instead of $950 shipped, it's $1,211 shipped. Would it be worth the extra 20% to you?
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 am

wibeasley wrote:Everyone always says that's difficult or annoying to regress back to a TN after using an IPS or PVA. Since my other monitor will still be TN, I almost think I should get a big TN instead of something like the U2711, so the other one won't annoy me. It would be hard for me to justify getting two IPSes and discarding two decent TNs.
arsenhazzard wrote:or at the very least, try and find some of the few remaining M/PVA panels (or a cheaper IPS...I don't see the 27" as a particularly good value compared to the 30" and 24" offerings).
The coupon applies to the 3007WFPHC also. Instead of $950 shipped, it's $1,211 shipped. Would it be worth the extra 20% to you?


The 3007WFP-HC has been MUCH cheaper that that before (the deals are usually ~900-1000 new, the best one I think was ~750 refurbed from Dell, which has the same warranty as a new one). Hell, ebay has one for 1290 shipped right now, so that coupon isn't doing you much good. Unless you need a big new monitor right this second and don't want to go through ebay/craigslist/forums for one, then I'd wait on that particular purchase. If you do need one now, I'd still go with the 30". It gives you a better upgrade route to use an additional 2x 4:3 20" monitors (1600x1200) in portrait mode for a 3 monitor setup ;).
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:21 am

In work, total screen real estate (resolution) is king. Someone suggested 2x24" and I agree. If you think it may be a bit too wide, I can suggest 2x20" (square 1600x1200) with a slightly lower price.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:32 am

wibeasley wrote:I remember seeing a big (maybe around 27") all-in-one-box Mac. It looked very impressive and I asked the BB guy if it was IPS or TN. He didn't understand the distinction.


The 27" iMacs have IPS panels.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:16 am

Flying Fox wrote:In work, total screen real estate (resolution) is king. Someone suggested 2x24" and I agree. If you think it may be a bit too wide, I can suggest 2x20" (square 1600x1200) with a slightly lower price.


He already has 2 20" monitors. His wording suggests that width is the limitation in resolution so I fail to see how 2 4:3 monitors is better than his current 2 16:10 ones.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:49 am

Skrying wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:In work, total screen real estate (resolution) is king. Someone suggested 2x24" and I agree. If you think it may be a bit too wide, I can suggest 2x20" (square 1600x1200) with a slightly lower price.


He already has 2 20" monitors. His wording suggests that width is the limitation in resolution so I fail to see how 2 4:3 monitors is better than his current 2 16:10 ones.

I was assuming his 20" are 1680x1050, so:
1600x1200 = 1,920,000
1680x1050 = 1,764,000
Difference = 156,000 (multiply by 2 for dual monitors)

I actually think most people are limited by the vertical resolution. I don't automatically link "graphs" to "width" myself. More pixels is still more pixels. Of course 2x 1920x1200 would be the better solution. ;)
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:08 am

If I'm going to spend around a grand, I think I'd rather have 2560x1440+1680x1050 (i.e., the new IPS/MVA and an old TN) than 1600x1200+1600x1200 or 1680x1050+1680x1050 (i.e., two new IPSes). It also sets me up better for the next monitor upgrade, because I'd be replacing a TN and not an IPS.

@FF, my opinion would probably change if I needed good color in both monitors, but right now I'm not sure I need it in one even. Also, I like your 4:3 suggestion. I currently have a 19" 4:3 and a 20" 10:6 (instead of two 20"s that I wrote above), but I thought that distinguishing them would unneccessarily complicate the description.
bthylafh wrote:The 27" iMacs have IPS panels.
I hope they still use the monitors after the rest of the embedded hardware is obsolete. It looks like the Mini DisplayPort is the only input you can use without an adapter. Whatever -I don't care enough to derail my own thread. But thank you grantmeaname and bthylafh, it helps to know that was an IPS I was looking at.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:35 am

arsenhazzard wrote:The 3007WFP-HC has been MUCH cheaper than that before
Ok, there arguments are pretty compelling for my situation. You've convinced me that 20% a $1100 U2711 isn't a deal I can't pass up.

My tentative plan is to get the 28" TN (1920 x 1200; .309mm dotpitch) that grantmeaname suggested for my next project. And then wait to buy a 30" IPS (2560x1600; .250 dotpitch) until a big discount comes up in the next year or so. If the two monitors are used next to each other in the future, the different dotpitches won't be ideal, but I don't think I'll be spanning many objects across them. Also, I'll try to include the 30" IPS in the next contract or grant proposal that needs better visualization.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:50 am

wibeasley wrote:If I'm going to spend around a grand, I think I'd rather have 2560x1440+1680x1050 (i.e., the new IPS/MVA and an old TN) than 1600x1200+1600x1200 or 1680x1050+1680x1050 (i.e., two new IPSes). It also sets me up better for the next monitor upgrade, because I'd be replacing a TN and not an IPS.

That's why I said 1920x1200+1920x1200 may still be the best ;), 2x U2410 at $450 each should still be under a grand. I'm not a big fan of asymmetrical setups for work myself, so I may be biased.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:53 am

wibeasley wrote:My tentative plan is to get the 28" TN (1920 x 1200; .309mm dotpitch) that grantmeaname suggested for my next project.


Instead of that, I would suggest grabbing the NEC EA231WMI-BK. Its a 23-inch, 1920x1080, E-IPS monitor that costs 309.99 at Newegg. Its cheaper than that TN and you still get the benefit of IPS panel technology. The only real drawbacks at the slightly lower resolution and dot pitch (and as I much I support the 16:10 aspect ratio, I support IPS technology more).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6824002524

Theres a promo code out now that lowers that price to $279.99: EMCYRYZ62

EDIT:

Another wonderful option would be the HP ZR24W

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm ... 01131.html

1920x1200, IPS, DisplayPort (along with DVI and VGA), and STANDARD GAMUT (this is extremely rare, and not seen since the NEC 2490WUXI)

You can get it for $390 w/ free shipping here: http://www.costcentral.com/proddetail/H ... /11108332/

Only slightly more expensive than the TN monitor that was recommended and superior in every way to it. [H]ard|Forum has a long thread about it if you need plenty of user feedback:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1491561
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:48 pm

Kurotetsu wrote:Another wonderful option would be the HP ZR24W. 1920x1200, IPS, $390 w/ free shipping
Wow. That's $60 less than the U2410 at its lowest sale price and $200 less than its current price.

Is there a catch (that would affect my uses)? I didn't see any skimming the Hard Forum thread. Is the lack of a polarizer a problem?
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:16 pm

wibeasley wrote:
Kurotetsu wrote:Another wonderful option would be the HP ZR24W. 1920x1200, IPS, $390 w/ free shipping
Wow. That's $60 less than the U2410 at its lowest sale price and $200 less than its current price.

Is there a catch (that would affect my uses)? I didn't see any skimming the Hard Forum thread. Is the lack of a polarizer a problem?


The A-TW polarizer was a feature that only showed up on the NEC 2490WUXI (and possibly the Doublesight D-263N, depending on who you ask), it prevented a slight white glow from showing up when looking at the screen at certain angles (a quirk that is unique to IPS and is not really an issue anymore). I don't believe it to be a problem at all. Frankly, even if it was, nobody uses the polarizer anymore, not even NEC.

EDIT:

Some people in the [H]ard|Forum thread considered the lack of an HDMI port to be a "catch". Though reading your posts I get the impression you won't give a crap about that, but I thought it a good idea to point it out anyway. Also, the default brightness is said to be blinding, though this can obviously be turned down.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:47 pm

You guys have proposed two or three options that are much better for me than what I came up with. The 24" HP IPS seems like such a good deal. I guess it's only been available for a month or two. Maybe it should be included in the next Systems Guide if it doesn't have widespread problems in the next three months (replacing the link to the other 24" HP that's unavailable on Newegg).

This monitor is in the lead now for me. The IPS is probably worth the smaller real estate (24" diagonal vs 27.5" diagonal of the TN Hanns·G). Their resolutions are the same, and the $390 shipped is close enough to $330 shipped.
Kurotetsu wrote:Some people in the [H]ard|Forum thread considered the lack of an HDMI port to be a "catch". Though reading your posts I get the impression you won't give a crap about that, but I thought it a good idea to point it out anyway.
You're right -it doesn't affect me but help could other people reading the thread. My 8600GT has only DVIs and my next gpu likely will have a DisplayPort in a year or two.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:21 pm

I have access to a Dell 2209WA (1680x1050, 60Hz, e-IPS), a cheap Acer AL1916 (1280x1024, 75Hz, TN), and a Sony GDM-FW900 (2304x1440, 85Hz, CRT) and I'd have to say that the TN panel is easiest on my eyes. I've tried it at 60Hz, 72Hz, and 75Hz. The same monitor at higher refresh rates looks miles better. 60Hz looks blurry to me. That said, I haven't seen the new IPS monitors in person. I would suggest trying several side by side if you have the opportunity.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:32 pm

Some good suggestions in this thread.
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:41 pm

Dashak wrote:The same monitor at higher refresh rates looks miles better. 60Hz looks blurry to me.
What kinds of tasks? Text and still graphics -- or movies and games? Were they using comparable video cards?
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Re: Arguments against U2711?

Postposted on Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:52 pm

I just ordered the HP ZR24w through TR's price grabber. It was $10 more than Google's cheapest seller (which Kurotetsu linked to), but I don't mind if that means TR gets a cut; this forum certainly helped me. (I assume they get a cut from PriceGrabber). Thank you everyone.
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