TN LCD apologists thread

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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:12 pm

Krogoth wrote:I don't understand the whole fuss with TN and IPS panels. This isn't back in 2001-2003 where the market was flood with el cheapo TNs that had terrible color saturation, viewing angles, ghosting etc. TN panels have improved from then. Properly calibrated units are almost as good any IPS panel. Likewise, IPS are just about as fast as TN. You need specialized tools and tests to notice any difference.

Proper screen calibration, source material, room lighting make a far greater impact on color accuracy then anything else. People are just too lazy to properly calibrate their screens. A miscalibrated display looks like crap no matter what technology it uses. I remember back when most of the world where on monochrome displays and you only had three choices: white, amber and green.


I don't think IPS and TN are that close, but even with a bevy of relatively cheap TN's at my disposal usually arranged around an HP 30" IPS, I can say that once calibrated and angle adjusted to seating position, they're far from unusable.

Still, I don't think I could bring myself to buy another TN, as I'm too interested in photography.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:25 pm

JohnC wrote: specific models or those who overfixate on a single quantity like "...but, but, it corners better!" :lol:

Ever since I put that swivel stand on it does corner better!!!
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:11 pm

You know a week ago I would have said "hey bugger off, TN is good enough" and then when I was building my wife's desktop I got a Dell 21.5" IPS display for myself and gave her my Samsung TN panel. Once I hooked up the IPS I was floored. Plus, the price - there's no reason not to go at least with an inexpensive IPS unless you need 120hz.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:24 pm

The color quality doesn't have to suck. TN panels can provide a wide color gamut if given something other than a blue LED with yellow phosphor ("White LED"). Blue LED + green and red phosphor allows TN panels to hit about 95% of NTSC color. GB+R LED or RGB LED should do even better.

Cheap panel combined with expensive backlight is a little odd. So no one should be surprised that cheap panel is going to be paired with a cheap backlight.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:34 pm

The colors in my old monitor looked fine if I look straight on, but the angles are not good. My wife was used to a TN panel with her laptop and the angles are actually a little better with the monitor, so she sees it as an improvement. I don't think I can go back, though.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:45 am

Best comment here:
NovusBogus wrote:when I was monitor shopping I looked at TN and IPS displays side by side


If you like pulsing backlighting and 120Hz of TN or colour depth and viewing-angle consistency of IPS, then buy what you like. Forum members opinions are just that - I hate TN, others love TN. Whether TN continues to exist or fades into obscurity at some later date is irrelevant at this very moment.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:15 am

Count me in the "TN sucks" camp.

TN is OK if your goal is to have "a screen", and it's OK on smaller desktop screens, but it fails miserably in the following scenarios:

Larger displays (because then you have to sit further away to stay in the sweet spot, meaning that resolution can't be as high)
Vertical orientation (even the best TN displays still suck horribly there)
Any time color accuracy is at all important (and I don't just mean the whole 6-bit issue, because there's plenty of 6-bit IPS panels, too)
TVs (because you end up viewing them at different angles)
Laptops (even though the displays are smaller, you sit closer to them, and you can end up putting the display at all sorts of different angles)
Tablets (like laptops, but much worse)
Phones (like tablets, but much worse - and the IPS renaissance on mobile devices started here, although it never really died on x86 tablets)

TN does have a couple minor advantages, but low-cost IPS implementations are taking care of the biggest of those, cost. (IPS response times have basically caught up, and IPS power consumption, in the applications where it matters, is far outweighed by its viewing angle benefits in those same applications.)
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:45 am

Hey, that's a really good list of reasons why TN sucks.
I'm obviously in the "hate TN" camp too, but let's put bias aside and see if there's a valid list of reasons IPS fails miserably, or what TN is especially good at.

IPS drawbacks:

  • Response time: IPS can be pushed to 144Hz and offers G2G response times of 5ms even in 8-bit panels. Slow IPS is really only 10-bit pro-studio panels now.
  • Cost: Not really - E-IPS is almost as cheap as TN
  • Power consumption: Where's the data? For desktops it's irrelevant since the only significant difference is caused by the backlight type (CCFL or LED). For laptops/tablets this /might/ be relevant.

TN advantages:

  • 120Hz Strobing backlight?This is a nice feature only available in TN at the moment, see below post for why.
  • 3D?As above for 120Hz 3D, 60Hz 3D and 48Hz 3D obviously possible but nobody cares.

Please feel free to suggest others.
Last edited by Chrispy_ on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:56 am

Chrispy_ wrote:TN advantages:
120Hz Strobing backlight?This is a nice feature only available in TN at the moment. Why? God knows. It's a backlight feature and nothing to do with the panel type at all.
3D?Uh, as above - only available in TN at the moment for no known technical reason other than "because there's no demand for them".

Actually, it is likely because 5ms G2G response time isn't good enough to implement these features properly. Stereo requires twice as fast response time for a given frame rate, and for a strobing backlight to do you any good the pixels need to have already settled before you turn the backlight on (while still leaving enough "on" time before you need to start changing the pixels again).
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:44 am

The main problem I have with the IPS promoters is that they've been saying the same thing since 2007, when fast TN panels cost anywhere from 40-60% as much as as IPS at any given screen size and *VA panels split the cost difference but had slow response times. And they kept saying it even as TN panels improved dramatically while IPS panels were very slow to come down in price or increase in availability.

At the moment, there are enough IPS options on the market that it's becoming difficult to recommend a TN at many popular screen sizes because usually, there is (at least) a 6-bit IPS equivalent that performs similarly on response times and costs less than 15% more.

In short, if your schtick doesn't reflect the current realities of the market place, it's not helping people make informed decisions. Right now the TN promoters do need to recognize that IPS is (finally) making a big sweep of the market and there aren't any compelling reasons to go back. But OTOH I can understand why they're a bit touchy -- they spent the past 5+ years trying to explain to the IPS camp that not everybody has a $1.5k PC budget. I used a 22" TN to play TF2 for roughly three years and it worked just fine. When I started getting serious about digital photography, I switched to IPS.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:25 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
  • Power consumption: Where's the data? For desktops it's irrelevant since the only significant difference is caused by the backlight type (CCFL or LED). For laptops/tablets this /might/ be relevant.


Hrm, I don't have any actual data (between, say, like TN and IPS panels), but there's two areas where an IPS panel with the same resolution, response time, and brightness (especially brightness) would in theory pull more power itself:

The actual LCD itself, because of having two transistors per pixel instead of one (but it may take less power per transistor, balancing that out?)
The backlight, because each transistor reduces available area for light transmission, requiring a more powerful backlight to make it through
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:36 pm

There's a bigger difference, I think, between monitors with the same size panels using LED backlights versus CCFL backlights than there is between IPS and TN. IPS should still use more, but you also need to account for the various DSPs and what-not that they build in for the OSD and scaling, which are typically more robust on IPS panels.

At panel size, feature and configuration parity, I'd expect IPS panels to use marginally more power, but I wouldn't expect it to be enough to make a large difference in a purchase decision.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:02 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
  • Power consumption: Where's the data? For desktops it's irrelevant since the only significant difference is caused by the backlight type (CCFL or LED). For laptops/tablets this /might/ be relevant.

No way this is relevant for tablets - a device that you want to rotate this way and that. For a long time my wife had an Acer Iconia Tab A100 and it used a TN panel. The viewing angles in portrait mode (and it didn't matter which way you turned it) were so bad that my left eye saw different colors than my right, and it made my eyes water as a result. I couldn't stand to look at it in portrait. There is no way I'll ever buy another tablet with a TN panel.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:18 pm

Image
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:19 pm

Pville_Piper wrote:
JohnC wrote: specific models or those who overfixate on a single quantity like "...but, but, it corners better!" :lol:

Ever since I put that swivel stand on it does corner better!!!

:lol:
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:24 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:No way this is relevant for tablets - a device that you want to rotate this way and that. For a long time my wife had an Acer Iconia Tab A100 and it used a TN panel. The viewing angles in portrait mode (and it didn't matter which way you turned it) were so bad that my left eye saw different colors than my right, and it made my eyes water as a result. I couldn't stand to look at it in portrait. There is no way I'll ever buy another tablet with a TN panel.

And that's why IPS never actually died on pen tablets. They were some of the first laptops to get it (and the only reason why IPS panels in ultraportable laptop sizes were readily available), and when 4:3 (and IPS with it) went away on laptops, 16:10 and 16:9 IPS panels were made for pen tablets.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:47 pm

TN has its legitimate uses.

120hz and next to no input lag is ideal for competitive FPS, BenQ XL2420T is one of the better purchases I've made since my first DIY build in 2008.

I don't edit photos or videos professionally so I could really care less if the colours are accurate.

But for the OP of the thread this was broken off from using an APU system, an affordable IPS panel would seem to be the ticket.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:39 pm

Prestige Worldwide wrote:no input lag

Which has nothing to do with whether the panel type is IPS, PLS, MVA or TN.

My IPS panel has no scaler, so no input lag whist my old TN Samsung 245B at had an awesome scaler, but was one of the laggiest screens I've ever used.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:48 pm

Chrispy_ wrote: My IPS panel has no scaler
Nor has my UltraSharp 3007WFP.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:16 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:>2013
>having a TN panel
>costanza.jpg

ISHYGDDT


That's how I read your post.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:55 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Prestige Worldwide wrote:no input lag

Which has nothing to do with whether the panel type is IPS, PLS, MVA or TN.

My IPS panel has no scaler, so no input lag whist my old TN Samsung 245B at had an awesome scaler, but was one of the laggiest screens I've ever used.


I wouldn't say nothing as many panels need scalers and other electronics to remain competitive. Pixel-precharging seemed to be all the rage to increase pixel response on notoriously slow panel types like Samsung's VAs, but is also used to get some of those '<2ms switching' claims on TNs. It can add just as much input lag as a scaler might, and using both can murder your FPS experience.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:27 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:This is 2013. Do not waste your money on any nasty TN LCD monitors. There are plenty of affordable IPS LCD monitors available.
Unfortunately, there are no IPS LCD monitors yet that has LightBoost, a strobe backlight that eliminates motion blur:

Image

See the LightBoost FAQ, as well as LightBoost Media Coverage, as well as TFTCentral: Motion Blur Reduction Backlights (Including LightBoost). We are still waiting for IPS monitors with this feature, it's currently only available in TN monitors.

Image Standard 60 Hz LCD

Image 50% less motion blur -- Standard 120 Hz

Image ~90% less motion blur -- LightBoost 120 Hz -- CRT QUALITY

Images from Photos: 60Hz vs 120Hz vs LightBoost.
Also, QNIX Q2710 IPS overclocked, Catleap 2B IPS overclocked, and Overlord X270OC IPS overclocked, is slightly worse than the "Standard 120Hz" image.

Most motion blur on a modern LCD display is not caused by the panel's speed of pixel transitions. Pixel transitions are far less than one refresh long now. Most motion blur is caused by sample-and-hold. (OLED such as PS Vita is subject to this too; see Why Do Some OLED's Have Motion Blur?). As your eyes track continuously moving objects on a screen, your eyes are in a different position at the beginning of a refresh than at the end of a refresh. So when tracking moving objects on a screen, you're getting motion blur from the statically displayed frames (most LCD's do not flicker). The only way to eliminate this kind of motion blur is to shorten the length of time each frame is displayed. There are only two true ways to do this; Increase Hz (more refreshes), or to add black periods between Hz (CRT flicker, LightBoost flicker, Plasma flicker, black frame insertion). LightBoost is the first one to really produce good CRT-quality motion on an LCD.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:28 pm

Some happy TN users who switched from IPS. (Even overclocked 120Hz IPS has more motion blur than LightBoost 120Hz).
From HardForum Post
Skyviper wrote:So I finally got the VG248QE hooked up last night and was able to play around with it for a couple hours. The other monitor that I have is a HP ZR30W which is a 30" 2560x1600 IPS monitor so I will be comparing the VG248QE to that a lot in this review.

Right off the bat, I noticed the color quality seems to be a lot worse than the ZR30W. Everything looks to be washed out, dull and not to mention the monitor suffers from poor viewing angles. On the ZR30W, there is next to no color shifting when I move my head around unlike the VG248QE, but that's a common problem with all TN monitors. I tried calibrating the monitor a little bit using some of the values posted online, but it still doesn't compare to the HP.

Moving on, the first thing I tried was 144 Hz gaming. I loaded up Borderlands 2 just to see how it is and I can definitely say it felt smoother. There is no screen tearing at all on the ASUS, unlike how it is on the HP if i don't turn on Vsync. Although the game felt smoother at 144 Hz and there was less blurring, I found that having to play on a lower res (1920x1080 vs 2560x1600) and poorer color reproduction made the overall gaming experience WORSE. Granted this isn't a competitive, online FPS game so I might have benefited more from having a faster refresh rate, but I would have probably stuck with playing this game on the 30" IPS monitor rather than a 24" TN.

At this point I felt like I may have wasted $300 bucks on a monitor that is full of compromises. The next thing I tried of course was using the Lightboost hack. This was the main reason why I bought the monitor in the first place since there are plenty of other 120 Hz monitors that I could have gotten that I'm sure had better color reproduction.

So I downloaded the hacked INF file and followed Mark's instructions. After turning on Lightboost, I noticed the monitor became a little bit brighter so I loaded up PixPerAn just to verify everything is working. The first thing I noticed was that I can actually read "I need more socks" at full speed! This was cool since I've never been able to read it going so fast before on any LCD monitor.

I then proceeded to load up Borderlands 2 again not having much expectations. The first thing that happened was I noticed the FPS drop down to around 1-2 fps, but then I remembered to hold down "Ctrl-T" for a few seconds to turn off the 3D effect which fixed the FPS problem. So I loaded up a game and the first thing that came to my mind was...

SWEET MOTHER OF GOD!

Am I seeing this correctly? The last time I gamed on a CRT monitor was back in 2006 before I got my first LCD and this ASUS monitor is EXACTLY like how I remembered gaming on a CRT monitor. I was absolutely shocked and amazed at how clear everything was when moving around. After seeing Lightboost in action, I would have gladly paid twice the amount for something that can reproduce the feeling I got when playing on a CRT. Now I really can't see myself going back to my 30" 2560x1600 IPS monitor when gaming. Everything looks so much clearer on the ASUS with Lightboost turned on.


If you do any kind of gaming, you should definitely get this monitor. For everything else however, an IPS monitor would probably be better.

Thankfully I am lucky enough to have both :)


From Geforce Forum Post:
Torr Samaho wrote:in case someone is wondering what's so great about using lightboost without glasses: i can confirm you get practically blur-free motion on your LCD.. the difference was so obvious to me that i stared surprised at my screen when i used lightboost for the first time.

people have different sensitivities to motion blur. i'm one of those who get a kind of motion sickness or nausea from seeing a continously blurred image.

to make it clear: no one can consciously see millisecond differences. what you do see however is their effect on the image: a screen with 1 ms response time blurs significantly less than a screen with 10 ms response time. this is visible in mark's captions of objects moving on-screen.

i'm not gaming competitively, i just want to see sharp motion, as blur detracts from the gaming experience.

i have tried plain 120 hz screens before. they were clearly better than the blurry mess that 60 hz screens are (at least when you play fast shooters with a high sens, like i do) but they still only delayed that motion sickness. lightboost has finally eliminated it. for gaming it's the biggest improvement in LCD technology yet.


From overclockers post
I’m using the XL2411T with lightboost since 21-Dec-2012. You can see on the picture below how my stats improved; don’t be fooled by how little it seems as these are average stats and with the history going back a year stats change slowly. 19-Dec-2012 is using the old set-up (GTX260 SLI and normal LCD). After that it is the XL2411T driven by one GTX670 OC and then since 12-Jan-2013 GTX670 OC in SLI.

Image

I also tried the 144Hz/120Hz without lightboost but I like the 120Hz with lightboost better. In game I can tell straight away if lightboost is off or on because of the blur.


So, IPS monitors still has some disadvantages relative to TN, as evidenced by the above testimonials.
TFTCentral said LightBoost outperformed ALL scanning backlights they have ever tested (their article)
If you are not familiar, then see the LightBoost FAQ, as well as LightBoost Media Coverage.

We are still waiting for IPS / VA monitors that take advantage of this technology.
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Re: New desktop for cousin

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:48 pm

  • there are no mass-market IPS displays that are factory >60Hz
  • 120hz refresh with sub-8ms BTB and preferably lightboost is uncontested for fast action gaming
+1

Even the 120Hz overclocks (QNIX Q2710, Catleap 2B, Overlord X270OC), do not have a motion-blur-reducing strobe backlight feature and thus only benefit from (at most) 50% reduction in motion blur. You're not getting the full order-of-magnitude reduction in motion blur that LightBoost can give. (See chart)
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:32 pm

mdrejhon wrote:Unfortunately, there are no IPS LCD monitors yet that has LightBoost, a strobe backlight that eliminates motion blur:

As noted previously, this is likely due to the fact that you need something with relatively fast response time to begin with, in order for a strobed backlight to do any good. The pixels need to be capable of completely switching state during the backlight's "off" interval.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:46 pm

just brew it! wrote:
mdrejhon wrote:Unfortunately, there are no IPS LCD monitors yet that has (sic) LightBoost, a strobe backlight that eliminates motion blur:

As noted previously, this is likely due to the fact that you need something with relatively fast response time to begin with, in order for a strobed backlight to do any good. The pixels need to be capable of completely switching state during the backlight's "off" interval.

Or I could just refuse to be an evangelist and be happy with what I have.

At what point does the drive to make your CS/BF/whatever twitch just that bit faster so you don't get fragged as often cross the line from healthy desire to improve gameplay to pathological need? Let's be honest here, this isn't about single-player gaming. Donington Park, Le Circuit de la Sarthe, and the Nordschleife look just fine on a 2007 vintage Dell IPS at 16x10.

EDIT: Not aimed at you, JBI, but the TN twitch crowd.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:51 pm

Captain Ned wrote:At what point does the drive to make your CS/BF/whatever twitch just that bit faster so you don't get fragged as often cross the line from healthy desire to improve gameplay to pathological need? Let's be honest here, this isn't about single-player gaming.


None of this reduces input lag; the point is to decrease artifacts from twitching, not make the monitor respond to twitching faster, right?
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:55 pm

Airmantharp wrote:None of this reduces input lag; the point is to decrease artifacts from twitching, not make the monitor respond to twitching faster, right?

We're completely at cross-purposes here. I don't play MMO twitch games; can't stand them and never will enjoy or play them. Input lag and motion blur mean nothing to me, yet Le Mans in full IPS glory does mean something to me. Hell, in a single-player racing game both actually add to the realism.

It's the twitch crowd that needs to reassess how they spend their countless hours, IMO.

EDIT: In many ways this reminds me of the original release of Doom and the first deathmatches. Many players would intentionally cut the resolution to 512x384 just to get a rendering tick jump over someone who liked to see the graphics. My distaste for multi-player started then, as I've always wanted the best graphics I could afford and simply refused to do the twitch thing. Of course, I was 30 when Doom first hit public release and back then I was all over flight sims, where quality graphics were the bomb.

I guess what I'm getting at is that having come from the ASCII-monochrome Leisure Suit Larry and the 4-color CGA of the IBM PC, I have a hard time understanding why someone would throw away graphical quality just to earn a few more points in an MMO game. Y'all will understand when I say that I'm clearly too old to get your drift.
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:52 pm

I'd say that the main issue isn't that we want something faster, but that what we have isn't fast enough. When the output device exceeds the limits of human perception, then we can start talking :).
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Re: TN LCD apologists thread

Postposted on Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:04 pm

Airmantharp wrote:I'd say that the main issue isn't that we want something faster, but that what we have isn't fast enough. When the output device exceeds the limits of human perception, then we can start talking :).

Whereas I've always been happy to sacrifice frame rate for visual glory. As I said, I don't twitch.

You clearly never played the original MS Flight Simulator on a PC XT with a 4-color CGA monitor.
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