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So, Sony (the camera and lens division folks) have been.. shall we say, unafraid to take risks? Well, they may have done something amazing. They just announced 2 mirrorless Full Frame bodies, that are roughly the same size as the Nex-7 with an EVF. While stupidly doing away with the NEX brand (they are the a7 and a7r), they did manage to release a 24mp (a7) and 36mp with no AA filter (a7r) in a form factor that is a bit smaller than than the Leica M. Oh, and adapters are coming for Leica M, Nikon, and Canon. They even have a vertical grip. The price, you may ask? $1700 and $2300, respectively. To say I am tempted to jump to the E Mount is an understatement. AF on the a7 is supposed to be able to keep up with the big boys, in most every respect. Well, I will have to see a formal review. The folks at Fredmiranda.com are pretty, well, stoked. I do not enough any legacy mf wide angle glass, so the appeal is far less for me. However, landscape folks may want to look at it.



That being said, I think the most amazing compact camera is the RX10. Trying to slide between the amazing RX100's and the phenominally priced RX1, this thing is very intriguing. Its a 1" sensor, but the lens is the equivalant of a 28-200/2.8! Constant 2.8 through that range! I am sorely tempted to sell all of my lenses in this range and buy this, and keep my body, a 50/1.4 and my 70-400. Wow.

My only complaint? The only thing for the A Mount that was announced is a $2500 update to the 70-200/2.8. But, if the performance of these bears out what the pre-reviews are saying, this could be something special.

The 7R kills. I have started to amass Leica lenses for my Fuji X-E1. I am going to keep doing that as they will be perfect for that beast. I may not buy any more Fuji lenses though. I may be leaving APS-C behind.

I am going to be very curious about the future a-mount full frames. At this point, I can see a full frame body in my future.

Good for Sony. More innovation is a good thing.

I've been impressed at the compactness of the EOS Rebel SL1. It looks really tiny with my 100-400mm lens mounted, but it takes fine photos.

Based on DPReviews comparing the A7(r) with the 6D I own, itself the smallest FF DSLR available, I'd say that the SL1 is probably smaller .

Still, the issue with the SL1 remains- the archaic 18MP sensor needs to go; not because it can't make great pictures in most conditions (as well it can), but that it exhibits the same issues when pushed, while the sensor in the 70D (which will likely trickle down to every crop camera below the rumored 7D II, at least) shows to be an across-the-board improvement, and enough so for regular FF users to consider it a feasible alternative. Wait for the SL2.

Now, the A7(r) does excite me- because it's seriously packing the best 35mm sensor ever made, and it can be adapted to nearly every system lens ever made.

But I wouldn't put down the X-Trans just yet, PenGun. Your lenses are, and likely will remain, superior to anything Sony puts out, optically- and the A7's two sensors are still Bayer-pattern. Would a 24MP X-Trans body change your mind?

Airmantharp wrote:

I'd say that the SL1 is probably smaller

I'm sure that you're aware that it's the smallest DSLR ever commercially produced (by quite a bit). It works fine. It'll be a Christmas gift (with the tiny 40/2.8 lens) for my father. The next DSLR that I buy for myself will have a full-frame sensor.

JustAnEngineer wrote:

Airmantharp wrote:

I'd say that the SL1 is probably smaller

I'm sure that you're aware that it's the smallest DSLR ever commercially produced (by quite a bit). It works fine. It'll be a Christmas gift (with the tiny 40/2.8 lens) for my father. The next DSLR that I buy for myself will have a full-frame sensor.

Oh, fully- and I think that it's an excellent gift; and that 40/2.8 was quite nice on my 60D, should be even better on the SL1 with a weaker AA filter and better/updating processing!

I am hoping that Sony will make the most of its relationship with Olympus and their lenses. First lens Sony is getting from them will be a 400/4. There are a couple of Zuiko's like the 75/1.8 or the 60 Macro I wouldn't mind having on the Sony Alpha mount. Or I guess the E Mount....

TheEmrys wrote:

I am hoping that Sony will make the most of its relationship with Olympus and their lenses. First lens Sony is getting from them will be a 400/4. There are a couple of Zuiko's like the 75/1.8 or the 60 Macro I wouldn't mind having on the Sony Alpha mount. Or I guess the E Mount....

Hopefully they'll be as cozy with Sigma- that'd be a real help. Sigma still can't make a lens with AF for Canon that can match Canon's own, and the faster and sharper they get, the more evident it is.

But a 35/1.4 Art, or the Art followups to the 50/1.4 and 85/1.4? Now that'd be cool. Even the just-announced 24-105/4 OS Art looks better than Sony's offerings, or Nikon's, or Pentax's, or Tamron's...

Sony has been pretty innovative over most of its products, not just cameras, and it's a little bit sad not more customers appreciate that. I appreciate what they've been able to accomplish so far and look forward to something similar in A-mount. I like that some excellent Minolta glass is cheap and plentiful for my a65, too!

I rate Sony slightly above Samsung- which is to say, not very high.

It's not that they can't make marvelous products, it's that they usually find ways to compromise them.

That may not be entirely fair. Some of Sony's lenses are top of the heap (ZA135/1.8 leaps to mind). Others are more geared for entry level. The one thing Sony has historically done is bypassing f/4 lenses and just gone for the f/2.8's. The glaring weaknesses has traditionally been in long primes and new macros.

TheEmrys wrote:

That may not be entirely fair. Some of Sony's lenses are top of the heap (ZA135/1.8 leaps to mind). Others are more geared for entry level. The one thing Sony has historically done is bypassing f/4 lenses and just gone for the f/2.8's. The glaring weaknesses has traditionally been in long primes and new macros.

A wide range of super-sharp optics available for accessible cameras effective in the widest range of photography? That's Canon and Sigma- and only Canons can focus reliably.

Every mount has it's gems, but Sigma brings more to Sony than anyone else, including Sony, when it comes to sharp optics, and contrast-detect based focus (whether alone or in a hybrid setup) outright alleviates the focusing issues that Sigma lenses have on PDAF-equipped DSLRs.

OK that 7R is obviously flying the same, probably better, sensor the D800 has. It's fairly common knowledge that it's a Sony sensor. So we have rangefinder clearance lenses, a few adapters to their APS-C lens set, and weather sealed Ziess on the way. The camera is weather sealed too. It's 460g or so. I am most impressed. poor Nikon, they will only sell a few more D800s.

I will continue to accumulate old Leica lenses, all FF, rangefinder clearance and magic on my X-E1 and wait a bit. I love my X-E1 but I do almost all landscape stuff and this would kill there. The D800 has amazing dynamic range and kicks ass on some medium format backs, if reviews can be believed. A rangefinder size one would be amazing. Weather sealing also is something I would like.

The Leica lenses are the best ever made. Zeiss comes in next and then we get the Japanese who make Lietz and Zeiss copies after the patents they held were made open as a war reparation move. I'm just gonna buy old Leica lenses from now on. The Elmar 135mm 4 I just got continues to blow my mind. The M lenses are Rangefinder lenses and have a short back clearance compared to a DSLR. This is perfect for my Fuji X-E1 and also just what I might need for a Sony 7R, another Rangerfinder clearance camera.

Apologies in advance for going off topic, but speaking of weird new Sony cameras and them not being afraid to take risks, check out the Q10 and Q100.

In case people haven't seen these yet, they are full digital cameras that look like lenses. They have features such as manual zoom and focus ring control, complete with battery and flash memory compartments right in the "lens" body. The only thing they're missing is the display, which you use your smartphone for. Yes. these cameras clip right on to your phone. The Q10 is a cheaper version without the Zeiss glass. They sink up with an app on the phone so that it can control the camera and serve as the display and connect via wifi (which is supposed to be hit or miss) or NFC.

I could throw in the 85/1.4, the 16-35mm, the 24-70, etc. I won't touch the 70-200 range, because in all honesty, Canon made a perfect zoom there. But you do pay for it. Canon really needs to update their 100-400, though. It isn't keeping up with the Sony or the Nikon offerings. Their 200+ primes I would kill for, though.

PenGun wrote:

OK that 7R is obviously flying the same, probably better, sensor the D800 has. It's fairly common knowledge that it's a Sony sensor. So we have rangefinder clearance lenses, a few adapters to their APS-C lens set, and weather sealed Ziess on the way. The camera is weather sealed too. It's 460g or so. I am most impressed. poor Nikon, they will only sell a few more D800s.

With your passion for landscape shooting, the a7r may very well be in your future. Well, once lenses and quality adapters are out for Leica M and Contax G's come out. That a7r is a stupid-good product. I wish I were in the e-mount world. But I simply can't afford the jump from a mount. I read that both sensors are new. That might be just new and improved, but I struggle to think how the 36mp sensor could be improved over what the d800e has. We'll see when the tests come out.

cynan wrote:

Apologies in advance for going off topic, but speaking of weird new Sony cameras and them not being afraid to take risks, check out the Q10 and Q100.

I believe its a brilliant concept and an overwhelming achievement in engineering, but with very little market in the US. It may very well be different in Asia or Europe, but I just don't see it taking hold in North America.

TheEmrys wrote:

PenGun wrote:

OK that 7R is obviously flying the same, probably better, sensor the D800 has. It's fairly common knowledge that it's a Sony sensor. So we have rangefinder clearance lenses, a few adapters to their APS-C lens set, and weather sealed Ziess on the way. The camera is weather sealed too. It's 460g or so. I am most impressed. poor Nikon, they will only sell a few more D800s.

With your passion for landscape shooting, the a7r may very well be in your future. Well, once lenses and quality adapters are out for Leica M and Contax G's come out. That a7r is a stupid-good product. I wish I were in the e-mount world. But I simply can't afford the jump from a mount. I read that both sensors are new. That might be just new and improved, but I struggle to think how the 36mp sensor could be improved over what the d800e has. We'll see when the tests come out.

http://www.metabones.com/product/sony-n ... bm2-detail

It's important to get a good adapter. The cheap ones are aluminum and not all that precise. Metabones makes very nice adapters and are chromed brass, as they should be. My Fuji X to M Metabones is very nice indeed.

I had a Sony DSC-R1, and loved the little SOB until my son dropped it on its lens. . So I bought into u4/3 for the G1 as a small-cam high quality replacement. I have never been too particularly happy about Panasonic colors when I had to go from the R1, but that R1 was magical so it is hard to deal with an IQ downgrade.

The new Sony FF cameras tick all the right boxes for me but the price. Ouch. Maybe if I can sell all of my u4/3 stuff for a decent price I can justify it, but man, anything over 1K is a lot to suck up for a hobby like this.

Then again thier all in one superzoom with constant 2.8 sure is appealing.

PenGun wrote:

TheEmrys wrote:

It's important to get a good adapter. The cheap ones are aluminum and not all that precise. Metabones makes very nice adapters and are chromed brass, as they should be. My Fuji X to M Metabones is very nice indeed.

If you end up going this way, I would love to see the results as well as hear about which lenses you are trying. Fuli has some excellent glass as well as the M mount stuff out there. I heard some rumors about the Zeiss Biogon 21/2.8 working very well with only slight vignetting. I am courious what LL will say about it.

TheEmrys wrote:

cynan wrote:

Apologies in advance for going off topic, but speaking of weird new Sony cameras and them not being afraid to take risks, check out the Q10 and Q100.

I believe its a brilliant concept and an overwhelming achievement in engineering, but with very little market in the US. It may very well be different in Asia or Europe, but I just don't see it taking hold in North America.

Sure. But the Q100 just doesn't fit very well in their product lineup. What would you buy? A Q100 or an RX100? Sure the RX is a bit more, but you get a full camera that doesn't really take up more room than the Q100 (in fact it may take up less given it's more compact, rectangular form factor when not in use). Plus the controls and general usability on the RX just have to be much better - and that's assuming that performance is par as Q100 and RX100 use the same lens/sensor. But due to more features, and better/more responsive controls, the RX100 has to win every time.

The Q10 is a more compelling product at it's price point for people who want a bit more than even the best camera phones have to offer. Sony just has to work the software/syncing glitches out - but that could be out of their hands given the various hardware implementations in the handset it's used with (ie, wifi/NFC performance, etc).

TheEmrys wrote:

PenGun wrote:

TheEmrys wrote:

It's important to get a good adapter. The cheap ones are aluminum and not all that precise. Metabones makes very nice adapters and are chromed brass, as they should be. My Fuji X to M Metabones is very nice indeed.

If you end up going this way, I would love to see the results as well as hear about which lenses you are trying. Fuli has some excellent glass as well as the M mount stuff out there. I heard some rumors about the Zeiss Biogon 21/2.8 working very well with only slight vignetting. I am courious what LL will say about it.

They are pleased with it. Michael especially likes how well Leica M lenses work on it so I am pleased too.

The Fuji X stuff is very good. The lenses are hard to beat for APS-C and the sensor is killer. People have switched from the D800 to Fuji X because the IQ is so good. I can see why. Still all them pixels and the killer dynamic range the big Sony sensor brings to the table are very appealing to a landscape guy. The Bionz X processor should be very good and as LL says my Leicas will work fine so there is not much holding me back. I can even pay for most of it with my Fuji gear.

Interesting stuff. I think Sony realizes the age of the cheap point-and-shoot is over and high-end DSLR will remain a niche hobby, so camera makers need to create a prosumer market or die trying.

PenGun wrote:

They are pleased with it. Michael especially likes how well Leica M lenses work on it so I am pleased too.

The Fuji X stuff is very good. The lenses are hard to beat for APS-C and the sensor is killer. People have switched from the D800 to Fuji X because the IQ is so good. I can see why. Still all them pixels and the killer dynamic range the big Sony sensor brings to the table are very appealing to a landscape guy. The Bionz X processor should be very good and as LL says my Leicas will work fine so there is not much holding me back. I can even pay for most of it with my Fuji gear.

I just read their review. I am a bit... well, surprised. It seemed downright enthusiastic. Those at LL tend to be a bit more reserved, and while I think it was Michael who was high on the a900, for the last couple of years Sony has been panned. Maybe they did catch lightning in a bottle.

PenGun wrote:

Michael especially likes how well Leica M lenses work on it so I am pleased too.

KEH has a 50/1.2 Noctilux in BGN (Bargain) condition for $12,899. I can't imagine the price for the 50/.95 version.

Captain Ned wrote:

PenGun wrote:

Michael especially likes how well Leica M lenses work on it so I am pleased too.

KEH has a 50/1.2 Noctilux in BGN (Bargain) condition for $12,899. I can't imagine the price for the 50/.95 version.

I see you don't really understand how this works. Leica weenies buy that stuff, only they can afford such amazing prices.

Here is a regular guy place to buy Leica stuff:

http://www.igorcamera.com/leica_m_lenses.htm

One of my favorite dealers. Now any of those lenses are within a few percent of the new ones for sheer quality and as I said only those who do not know better, Leica weenies, buy the new bits.

My Leica Elmar 135 4 set me back $325 and it is a magic thing.

BGN condition is pretty rough.

JustAnEngineer wrote:

BGN condition is pretty rough.

Oh right I was not paying enough attention I guess. Yeah there are a few lenses have stupid value. They collect em' like jewelery it seems.

But for a 50mm a Summicron 50mm 2 is a very fine lens and they range from say $750 to $1500 for very good condition ones.

They have a Ziess 35mm 2.8 for the 7R and a 55mm 1.8 on the way. They are both under a grand and will offer full camera function, I'll see how they perform when I get to that point, I will be able to rent them no doubt.

There are also problems with wider lenses on adapted digital cameras, corner smearing is one common fault.

I have lately been intrigued by getting a Minolta Rokkor 58/1.2. It is by no means perfect, but has some awfully nice bokeh and would make a great portrait lens on APS-C. It only runs $400ish. But to make that leap, I'd have to get a lot more serious about portraiture.