4K, how is this going to work???

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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:09 pm

Pagey wrote: I only study it as a hobby because it fascinates the hell out of me. I still marvel at how groups of engineers were able to come up with the first analog NTSC encoding using a modulated radio wave!


Hey if you're interested (and mods feel free to erase this if it goes against the forum rules) have a look at this forum.

http://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php

Great info and feedback from top professionals, I've lurked for a long time. Also consider joining the CML mailing list. It should feed that fascination (probably satiate it).
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:04 pm

Moving this thread to the Visual Haven.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:35 pm

CityEater wrote:
Pagey wrote: I only study it as a hobby because it fascinates the hell out of me. I still marvel at how groups of engineers were able to come up with the first analog NTSC encoding using a modulated radio wave!


Hey if you're interested (and mods feel free to erase this if it goes against the forum rules) have a look at this forum.

http://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php

Great info and feedback from top professionals, I've lurked for a long time. Also consider joining the CML mailing list. It should feed that fascination (probably satiate it).


Thanks for the link! This is what I've been studying: http://www.amazon.com/The-Filmmakers-Ha ... 0452297281

I am on my second or third reading, and I learn something new every time. The reason I'm excited about the potential for the new 4K master of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly is that from what I've read, there are 2 masters, currently: a version used for the Blu-ray here in the states, and then Mondo Films has an Italian master that is supposedly sharper, timed/graded better on the color, and does not make use of egregious DNR...something the American master is accused of. Having seen neither, I can't say for certain. I was impressed with how well well Fistful and Few Dollars More looked on Blu. Yes, Techniscope has a lot of grain, but grain doesn't bother me. It's simply part of the experience of shooting 2-perf film. American Graffiti is another Techniscope classic, and to me it's just part of the overall enjoyment and experience. Heck, when I watched ST: Into Darkness, the local theater was projecting a 35mm release print. It has visible print damage, the infamous "cigarette burns" before the changeovers, etc. The image was often soft and somewhat out of focus, but that could be the fault of the projectionist. In any event, I suspect it will be on of the last 'films' I actually see on film!

I also agree with you on better calibration for current gen TVs. I downloaded one of the free tools from AVS Forums, and to do it right (or to even attempt to do it right) takes time and patience. And even then, some panels just won't clean up as much as you'd like. But...then I think back to the days of watching Star Trek: TNG in broadcast as I pop in my TNG Season 1 Blu-ray and realize just how far we've come, even if the TV could stand to be calibrated more tightly.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:56 am

Yeah I love grain in the right story too. Its funny how many digitally shot films go though this process now: Digitally shot -> Noise reduction applied at the post house -> Colour graded -> and then either film grain emulation/grain overlay applied or lasered out to film print/neg and re scanned. All to get that filmic texture. Gets used fairly regularly, even on commercials. I started out shooting super 16 and have always loved the texture. 2 perf isn't dead yet either, there's still a few evangelists around but modern stocks are very clean and the equipment isn't a joy to use at this point. Film makers would probably take the expense hit and just shoot super 35 (once cropped down its roughly the same neg image area) because they have so many more equipment options.

These vizio tvs sound pretty good, shame they don't have a presence here in Australia. I'm in the market for a new monitor and I've been eyeing the new dell U3014 (pretty brutal sticker shock) but I have to say I'm fairly tempted by the Dell 4k 24inch as well. I don't have any experience with this but how cleanly do these high rez panels scale back down to 1080p? I mean it should be near perfect right? 1:1 to 1:4. I'm more impressed by what the newer gpu's can do pushing these 4k panels. I mean I don't mind scaling back a few settings to get over 45fps (which has generally been my "Playable" expectation) its just when the mins kick in they look shockingly low. Maybe Nvidia and AMD just haven't exerted as much effort to optimise their drivers for those resolutions? I don't know. I'd still like to run some light AA even at that rez but on a 24 inch monitor its definitely at a point where I won't be able to discern pixels. At that point I'm fairly sure the art assets in games aren't going to be up to scratch.

Maybe someone can explain this to me but I've been buying games digitally for five or six years. The largest I've ever bought was somewhere in the realm of a 20Gb download. Why are PS4 games sometimes near twice that? Higher bitrate sound? Higher rez textures? Or just more FMV? I don't get it.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:47 am

http://www.ultrahdtv.net/lg-launching-3 ... 14-31mu95/

I like both of these but the 19:10 4096X2160 model is particularly interesting. I don't know if it will carry a premium over the UHD models from Asus, Dell etc or not, this isn't a market which LG usually compete in so maybe they'll surprise us. From what I've read it appears to conform to all the relevant video standards ( 709, 601, 2020 ) and it certainly looks like LG are trying to separate themselves from the pack.

Maybe UHD isn't the future of 4k at home...

On the other hand I would love that 21:9 monitor for gaming.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:42 pm

CityEater wrote:The GH4 is a good example of what I meant, its "4k" but only in the sense that it creates a 4096X2160 frame. If you point it at a res chart there's no way its going to resolve that much information even using its SDI out to an external recorder.


Well, supposedly the GH4 will have new high bitrate capture modes. If I understand correctly, there is a new breakout box (SDI) that will enable IPB bitrates of 100 Mbps for 4K in MP4 at up to 30p (too bad they're not using x.265) and 1080p All-Intra at up to 200 Mbps. At 10-bit color (4:2:2). While not a perfect 4K capturing device, it still looks to be a considerable evolution over the stock GH3 - and any other DSLR cam with video capabilities.

Edit: Actually, that breakout box isn't required for 4k at 30p using the 100Mbps IPB. Budget SD cards need not apply (UHS-I class 3). Also, from the link above, looks like you can skip the breakout box and use HDMI to output directly to an external capturing device..
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:19 am

cynan wrote:Edit: Actually, that breakout box isn't required for 4k at 30p using the 100Mbps IPB. Budget SD cards need not apply (UHS-I class 3). Also, from the link above, looks like you can skip the breakout box and use HDMI to output directly to an external capturing device..


Both are just video signals at that point, ultimately compressed at some point in the line. The type of external recording devices we're talking about would cost multiples of the price of the camera to pull 4k in 4:2:2. Realistically people will either use it in 1080p (Using a cheaper external recorder) or onto the SD card; 4k or not. Don't get me wrong, Panasonic have really continued to push the HDSLR game, the GH3 shouldn't be underestimated. I thought it looked great in "Upstream Color".

Here's an interesting look at the GH4 against one of its likely competitors.
http://www.eoshd.com/content/12057/4k-c ... ion-camera

Both (and others) fighting it out for a toe in the prosumer market verging on consumer pricing.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:24 am

Colour me Krogoth'd until it can do 120+ Hz
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:56 am

Chrispy_ wrote:Games won't be 4K anytime soon, I'm running a pair of 7970's and I'm struggling to hit a solid 60fps in some games even at 1440p (Crysis3, BF4). The tests at 4K so far seem to indicate that you'll need to damn-near triple your GPU throughput to get 4K running as well as 1080p, and 3x the GPU actually costs 6x as much. It seems like a waste for anyone who actually has monetary concerns, especially given that the next-gen consoles seem to be struggling to output at even 1080p at the moment - there'll likely be little to no 4K gaming content for a while.

Right now we're in an unusual situation where high-end graphics haven't really progressed much. Almost two and a half years have passed since the 7970 was the $550 flagship, and even if you buy a 290X or a 780Ti today you haven't quite managed to double the performance of that card - A 7990 is slower than two 7970s and yet it still comfortably beats the 780Ti and the 290X in Uber mode. I'm saying "comfortably" because the 7990 is 10% faster than a hot-clocked 780Ti even in games like Crysis3 and BF4 where Nvidia cards do better. In AMD-friendly game engines, the margin is more like 40%.....

So, maybe on its 3rd birthday, the 7970 will finally be only half the speed of the latest GPU: That still means that the latest, most-expensive GPU on the market will be inadequate to play even today's games at 4K, you can completely forget about games in a year from now!


I thought that 4K for older games like say star craft would look stunning. Could you imagine pushing Star craft 2 on a 42 inch 4K monitor on your desk. It would be amazing!!!
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:34 pm

I just keep looking over the sets on amazon and the prices are pretty darn reasonable(absent decent connector bandwidth). I'm really eager to get my hands on one for my desktop soon as they work this all out!
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:06 pm

kamikaziechameleon wrote:I just keep looking over the sets on amazon and the prices are pretty darn reasonable(absent decent connector bandwidth). I'm really eager to get my hands on one for my desktop soon as they work this all out!


That's my point. It doesnt' look stunning, because the art assets are designed for 1080p. It looks debatably better at 1440p or 1600p because the stuff that is detailed enough shines, but it also looks inconsistent, because you're getting into textures and game geometry that wasn't supposed to be viewed in such detail. The textures are blurry and the curves are polygonal.

Game assets are optimised for their console resolutions by the developer for production cost reasons. PC exclusives like Starcraft are optimised for 1080p and you get diminishing returns at higher resolutions because they weren't wasting development budget on art assets and their associated downscaling that targetted less than 2% of the market.

Perhaps now high-ppi laptops and 1440p screens are more common, it may become a consideration for future releases, but then you hit the performance problem I first mentioned. To take it to the logical conclusion, minecraft with it's low-poly, low-res textures looks just as ass at 4K as it does at 1080p. The 4K experience only matters if the content is being compromised at 1080p or lower.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:24 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
kamikaziechameleon wrote:I just keep looking over the sets on amazon and the prices are pretty darn reasonable(absent decent connector bandwidth). I'm really eager to get my hands on one for my desktop soon as they work this all out!


That's my point. It doesnt' look stunning, because the art assets are designed for 1080p. It looks debatably better at 1440p or 1600p because the stuff that is detailed enough shines, but it also looks inconsistent, because you're getting into textures and game geometry that wasn't supposed to be viewed in such detail. The textures are blurry and the curves are polygonal.

Game assets are optimised for their console resolutions by the developer for production cost reasons. PC exclusives like Starcraft are optimised for 1080p and you get diminishing returns at higher resolutions because they weren't wasting development budget on art assets and their associated downscaling that targetted less than 2% of the market.

Perhaps now high-ppi laptops and 1440p screens are more common, it may become a consideration for future releases, but then you hit the performance problem I first mentioned. To take it to the logical conclusion, minecraft with it's low-poly, low-res textures looks just as ass at 4K as it does at 1080p. The 4K experience only matters if the content is being compromised at 1080p or lower.


I can understand what you mean by undesirable polygons.

I don't think it will be a issue as much as you think it will be. I mean I'd rather have a crisper screen(less jaggies etc) with a 4K display and see more polygons than normal then see less polygons and more jaggies. I'd rather run 4K and not AA on a 1600p screen. I believe you are right that some assets in RTS games for example won't scale well. But have you played warcraft 3 on a 1600p screen (Never was designed for that) It looks great!

I play lots of old games on my Dell 30" Assuming we aren't talking about Diablo and its low locked resolution I'm happy to play on the higher res. I've never plugged a game into my 1600p screen and said, "Oh no it looks too bad let me unplug this and go back to a 800x600 panel"

Sure somethings look a little worse but most things look overall better.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:24 am

I keep reading articles claiming, "4K is a waste!" I get that 4K at the expense of decent color and black levels is not an improvement for most people. But I don't think its a waste. Sub 50" TV's will make great monitors (once the connection standard gets sorted) and bigger ones will look stunning! I know we covered the hurdles of content before but 4K and games won't be as big an issue as say 4K and movies. Even there you have a market with the ability to "Re-Sell" movie collections to nut jobs like me at massive mark ups, streaming is SO far away from having even super bit DVD quality let alone bluray.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:50 pm

I was reading a large part of the... off adoption of 4K is that panel color and darkness quality is still all over the place. LCD is still not plasma and plasma is on the way out with OLED not ready to step up and take its place. Looks like edge lit LED LCD may be the staple panel tech for screens from 20" to 90" for the foreseeable future.

I love plasma, and OLED doesn't appear to be up to the challenge of replacing it in the next 4-5 years due to major production difficulties.

Panel tech is about to stradle a gap and honestly I see why 4K will be important for marketing as it gives value to LCD that currently no other tech is able to reproduce... even if LCD is in no way able to reliably duplicate color on the level of plasma or OLED. OLED has another challenge to deal with, it's become known to be prone to burn in... that's a damning thing to many users.

I personally use high color quality LCD's for a long time and they simply don't hold a candle to what a crappy plasma can reproduce (even if accuracy is out the window, lol)

Interesting times we live in.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:52 pm

I've been playing a bunch of ubisoft games, assassin's creed and far cry 3 and they have annoying draw in and render issues that are overly apparent on a 1600p monitor. Not a universal HD issue, BF3 looks stellar at 1600p.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:01 pm

kamikaziechameleon wrote:I keep reading articles claiming, "4K is a waste!" I get that 4K at the expense of decent color and black levels is not an improvement for most people. But I don't think its a waste. Sub 50" TV's will make great monitors (once the connection standard gets sorted) and bigger ones will look stunning! I know we covered the hurdles of content before but 4K and games won't be as big an issue as say 4K and movies. Even there you have a market with the ability to "Re-Sell" movie collections to nut jobs like me at massive mark ups, streaming is SO far away from having even super bit DVD quality let alone bluray.


It's not just the connection standard. The required parts necessary to process a 4k signal at 60Hz+ just doesn't (or at least not until now or the near future) exists as off-the-shelf items. Case in point: The $800 Dell TN 4K monitor that has DP 1.2, but can only do 30Hz. And the fact that all the previous 4K designs based off of the Sharp panels were actually two displays in one. Hopefully this is changing now.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:45 pm

cynan wrote:
kamikaziechameleon wrote:I keep reading articles claiming, "4K is a waste!" I get that 4K at the expense of decent color and black levels is not an improvement for most people. But I don't think its a waste. Sub 50" TV's will make great monitors (once the connection standard gets sorted) and bigger ones will look stunning! I know we covered the hurdles of content before but 4K and games won't be as big an issue as say 4K and movies. Even there you have a market with the ability to "Re-Sell" movie collections to nut jobs like me at massive mark ups, streaming is SO far away from having even super bit DVD quality let alone bluray.


It's not just the connection standard. The required parts necessary to process a 4k signal at 60Hz+ just doesn't (or at least not until now or the near future) exists as off-the-shelf items. Case in point: The $800 Dell TN 4K monitor that has DP 1.2, but can only do 30Hz. And the fact that all the previous 4K designs based off of the Sharp panels were actually two displays in one. Hopefully this is changing now.


Yeah, I'm excited for 4K because I think it will be a long lasting plateau. Till film its self evolves again, Hitting a resolution plateau will help set engineers focus on color and contrast again. Hoping 1080p lasts longer won't resolve the need for resolution to level off for a while so film catalogs can be modernized and remastered.

I'm hoping in the next 12 months they will fix the breadth of issues that have hindered the utility of the resolution. The increase in TV and computer monitors is bringing us to something of a convergence of the office and living room in terms of tech...

Interesting stuff indeed.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work??? update???

Postposted on Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:45 pm

Didn't know if there has been an update here? Just wondering if there are any 4K panels out there that support 60 fps yet... I'm thinking of changing my pc and HT setup in the next year or so.
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Re: 4K, how is this going to work???

Postposted on Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:09 am

Yeah, there have been some news articles on 4K 60Hz Single-tile models on TR.

Off the top of my head I don't know what models but they definitely exist, search the news archives & see what turns up.
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