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Let's look at this scaremongering piece, for example.

We copied and pasted the Microsoft Privacy Statement and the Services Agreement into a document editor and found that these “straightforward” terms are 22 and 23 pages long respectively.

... yeah, have you ever read iTunes' terms of services? 43 pages long, too, IIRC. Welcome to 2015.

By default, when signing into Windows with a Microsoft account, Windows syncs some of your settings and data with Microsoft servers, [...] Users can however deactivate this transfer to the Microsoft servers by changing their settings.

No further comment here.

More problematic from a data protection perspective is however the fact that Windows generates a unique advertising ID for each user on a device.

Seriously? Have they been asleep for the last 15 years or so? Any browser will track you by default. Just type in "ford focus" in Google and you'll get Ford ads.

The BitLocker recovery key for the user’s device is automatically backed up online in the Microsoft OneDrive account.

I'll grant them this point if you can't disable this. Which I almost bet you can.

Microsoft’s updated terms also state that they collect basic information “from you and your devices, including for example “app use data for apps that run on Windows” and “data about the networks you connect to.”

Turn if off. You can do it WHEN INSTALLING, for crying out loud.

Users who chose to enable Microsoft’s personal assistant software “Cortana” have to live with the following invasion to their privacy

See above.

We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including [...] to enforce the terms governing the use of the services

So, although we'd probably need a lawyer, I'm reading that they have to comply with laws and will give out info if asked to. *Or*, they're saying that if you abuse their services, your stored data which you can disallow from being sent is fair game.

You guys wanna know what's really going on here? Microsoft is being upfront about the things that everyone does, and they get lambasted for their trouble. Apple is the sweetheart of the industry and everyone trusts Cpt. Cook's load of crock about "ooh we care about our users' privacy". People use Viber, Line, Whatsapp, you name it, send all their contacts on, turn on location tracking on their phones and laptops, yadda yada... And then bitch about Microsoft, because it's cool to hate on them. Microsoft is the evil, horn-headed company, Google is technological, and Apple is just plain cool.

It's 1999. Any serious designer uses a Mac. Microsoft is spelled Micro$oft and the root of all evil.

Some things never change, I guess.

PS - It's entirely possible that there is something somewhere that Windows 10 will do that you can't disable and collects data. I will gladly protest that, but not what's been shown so far.

Whether justified or not (which is another debate), there can be no denying that fact that Apple has a more favorable public image versus Microsoft. As you say, there have been 'haters' of Microsoft for years. But it is also up to every company to manage their public image. Perhaps, MS needs to step up their efforts in this area and be more transparent with its customers. I don't have all the answers here and I am not a public relations expert. But I am just saying that I feel perceptions really do matter in the marketplace!

Let's face it, MS still holds the lions share of the market in the desktop/laptop market. But Apple and Google have been incredibly successful in recent times while dominating the mobile market! We don't have to look at the differences in stock prices and balance sheets to see the differences there! The problem for MS is the fact that most people still view them as a desktop/laptop only software company as well as the fact that the general public puts a different standard on a mobile OS versus their desktop or laptop. For example, I've got an iPhone but I could care less about anyone collecting data on that device since I don't do any critical mission things on there such as taxes or managing my finances. Perhaps my thoughts are similar to many people.

And herein lies part of the problem (in my view). Microsoft desperately wants to tap into this mobile market and is using Windows 10 to help accomplish that goal. But the challenges will be overcoming public opinions on that very dual operating system that Microsoft wishes to use--particularly when its used on a desktop/laptop. This is not an issue with IOS and Android since they are mobile only. And it seems Apple made the smart choice of keeping their OS X on a separate platform (for their Macs) versus attempting to market those items under a dual platorm as Mircrosoft has now done with Win10 (and formerly with Win8).

So there are reasons that help explain some of the issues that were posted by the last person in this thread. Customers might give Tim Cook a free pass in this regard whereas they might blast Satya Nadella but the circumstances cannot be equated as being the same either. And as far as the trust factor, MS did themselves NO favors when they set up all of the privacy defaults in Win10 to their benefits. Users want to feel some sense of control and privacy over their computers. And it appears Microsoft has done very little (if nothing) to really address those concerns. And on that note about privacy settings-I must agree with other users that MS still collects some basic data even when the settings are turned off. But again, it is up to MS to attempt to mitigate those concerns for any users who have issues with it. Clearly, they need to step up to the plate here. And they should have been a lot more transparent with inexperienced users regarding these settings! That in and of itself did absolutely nothing to build trust!

Meanwhile, I am happy to use Windows 7 on my desktop. It's a good OS and accomplishes everything I need it to do. Will I upgrade to Windows 10 as my permanent desktop system? The verdict is still out on that and will depend on a number of factors going forward. The good news is, we all have choices in an operating system. And outside of hardcore gaming, this can be accomplished on a number of different operating systems. Microsoft is not the end of of computing; and so it shouldn't be. Having a little competition in the market can only lead to good things.

scott784, thanks. Your post was quite level-headed and that alone is refreshing. And you hit it dead on with Microsoft's (lack of?) managing its image—though I still don't excuse a lot of knee-jerking that goes around

I also agree with almost everything you said, except perhaps the point about the privacy default settings. Both Google and Apple devices also have some nasty defaults. The former wants to cloud-sync everything by default, while the latter will ask you 50 things on its install process (which, for an easy-to-use-device, is actually pretty frickin' terrible, but that's another discussion).

I'm also almost equally concerned about data collection on my phone versus my desktop. I do homebanking on the phone, have Lastpass in it, Dropbox, Linode server management app, etc. My number of installed apps is actually ridiculously small compared to Joe Sixpack, but I consider the data to be almost as precious as my desktop's.

morphine wrote:

Let's look at this scaremongering piece, for example.

We copied and pasted the Microsoft Privacy Statement and the Services Agreement into a document editor and found that these “straightforward” terms are 22 and 23 pages long respectively.

... yeah, have you ever read iTunes' terms of services? 43 pages long, too, IIRC. Welcome to 2015.

By default, when signing into Windows with a Microsoft account, Windows syncs some of your settings and data with Microsoft servers, [...] Users can however deactivate this transfer to the Microsoft servers by changing their settings.

No further comment here.

More problematic from a data protection perspective is however the fact that Windows generates a unique advertising ID for each user on a device.

Seriously? Have they been asleep for the last 15 years or so? Any browser will track you by default. Just type in "ford focus" in Google and you'll get Ford ads.

The BitLocker recovery key for the user’s device is automatically backed up online in the Microsoft OneDrive account.

I'll grant them this point if you can't disable this. Which I almost bet you can.

Microsoft’s updated terms also state that they collect basic information “from you and your devices, including for example “app use data for apps that run on Windows” and “data about the networks you connect to.”

Turn if off. You can do it WHEN INSTALLING, for crying out loud.

Users who chose to enable Microsoft’s personal assistant software “Cortana” have to live with the following invasion to their privacy

See above.

We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including [...] to enforce the terms governing the use of the services

So, although we'd probably need a lawyer, I'm reading that they have to comply with laws and will give out info if asked to. *Or*, they're saying that if you abuse their services, your stored data which you can disallow from being sent is fair game.

You guys wanna know what's really going on here? Microsoft is being upfront about the things that everyone does, and they get lambasted for their trouble. Apple is the sweetheart of the industry and everyone trusts Cpt. Cook's load of crock about "ooh we care about our users' privacy". People use Viber, Line, Whatsapp, you name it, send all their contacts on, turn on location tracking on their phones and laptops, yadda yada... And then bitch about Microsoft, because it's cool to hate on them. Microsoft is the evil, horn-headed company, Google is technological, and Apple is just plain cool.

It's 1999. Any serious designer uses a Mac. Microsoft is spelled Micro$oft and the root of all evil.

Some things never change, I guess.

PS - It's entirely possible that there is something somewhere that Windows 10 will do that you can't disable and collects data. I will gladly protest that, but not what's been shown so far.

If you AGREE to them analyzing and collecting they can legally do a lot more with it than if you dont agree and they secretly do it. Thats the issue. Them being up front is actually a bad thing in this case.

And only Windows 10 Enterprise Edition allows you to disable telemetry. Thats pretty well known too.

BlackDove wrote:

If you AGREE to them analyzing and collecting they can legally do a lot more with it than if you dont agree and they secretly do it. Thats the issue. Them being up front is actually a bad thing in this case.

So I suppose you prefer that a company will say it collects data "for partnerships with third-parties" and doesn't tell you what it's actually?

It's not that I'm saying I like data collection. My point is, I see absolutely no difference between what MS is doing and think they're getting a bad rap just because (IMO) they're clearer as in to what they're doing. For example, Google's ToS that I bothered to read back in a while are even more vague and broad.

As another example, I have an iPad, but I trust Apple as much as I trust MS - which is, not at all. Apple will sing the "privacy song" while being subject to the same laws and liabilities as MS, and with the same exact accountability: next to none, because's no such thing as independent third-party verification of stored data. In other words, anyone can make you promises about being all nice and pure and then run away with your data, with little way of tracking it.

... unless you're Ashley Madinson

Anyway, my point is: I trust none of the big three, and I personally don't think it's right for MS to always be the target.

morphine wrote:

and I personally don't think it's right for MS to always be the target.

Always the target? Is that a joke?

morphine wrote:

You guys wanna know what's really going on here? Microsoft is being upfront about the things that everyone does, and they get lambasted for their trouble. Apple is the sweetheart of the industry and everyone trusts Cpt. Cook's load of crock about "ooh we care about our users' privacy". People use Viber, Line, Whatsapp, you name it, send all their contacts on, turn on location tracking on their phones and laptops, yadda yada... And then bitch about Microsoft, because it's cool to hate on them. Microsoft is the evil, horn-headed company, Google is technological, and Apple is just plain cool.

Did someone take away your soother? I seriously question your ability to be a moderator now.

scott784 wrote:

Whether justified or not (which is another debate), there can be no denying that fact that Apple has a more favorable public image versus Microsoft.

75 million people in the past month disagree with your statement.

End User wrote:

morphine wrote:

and I personally don't think it's right for MS to always be the target.

Always the target? Is that a joke?

No, I'm actually very serious. Every time Microsoft makes even the slightest mistake, whether true or imagined, you see both media and users (including those that really should know better) mocking it mercilessly and often making mountains out of molehills. I don't see and have never seen such contempt either from the media or from users for a company that's changed massively since The Dark Ages (1998 to early 2000s). I bear no special love for them, and I'll gladly point out when they screw up (see Vista, Win8/8.1). But then I see the incredible amount of bad press and 1998-era Slashdottite knee-jerking that goes around and I can't help but shake my head at preconceptions that never seem to go away.

See also: PHP is for noobs, MySQL eats your data, PCs can't do design work, Macs never have problems, Linux is just a command line, only mouse engineers use Windows, etc, you name it.

morphine wrote:

Did someone take away your soother? I seriously question your ability to be a moderator now.

Sooo... everyone gets to have an opinion, but not the moderator. Gotcha.

Morphine, you seriously need to read the some of the detailed Windows 10 threads where people have a more detailed analysis of the legal differences in the terms between Windows 8 and Windows 10.

Windows 10s basically says "all of your data belongs to us to analyze and automatically forward, even if its just because we dislike what you say". Its the collecting and ANALYSIS that you MUST AGREE TO thats the problem.

Do other companies and older Windows have back doors and do the same thing? Probably, but they dont explicitly say that they do and make you agree to allowing it.

They can do a lot more with your data a lot easier and more openly BECAUSE you agree to it. I know better than to trust almost any tech company but this is worse than Apple, Google or even previous Windows.

Thats not even mentioning the other huge problem with all the "cloud" aspects and data sharing which is criminals gaining access to your private data by using those "features". Windows has a terrible track record with security.

And then theres the fact that Windows 10 is not an improvement over 7 or 8. Its just a bad reskin of 8 with a lot of built in spyware so Microsoft can monetize your private data. Its terrible even without all the privacy and security problems.

So many people probably installed it because of the GWX spam updates to their good operating systems and because its FREE and they dont read the terms.

End User wrote:

scott784 wrote:

Whether justified or not (which is another debate), there can be no denying that fact that Apple has a more favorable public image versus Microsoft.

75 million people in the past month disagree with your statement.

Yea, perhaps, some of them did it by accident (lol) or just didn't give it much thought because it's 'free'. Of course, there were/are many others with a genuine interest. I happened to be one of those people who upgraded (right after 07/29) for testing purposes only while I continued to use Win7 for my main work with another license. But I imagine that I was counted as one of those 75 million and my number probably won't be removed. But I am not even using/testing Win10 at this time. I see no compelling reason to make the switch. And more than anything, I do not like the forced updates that give me no say in the matter! Theoretically, MS can continue to change 10 into anything/whatever they like with these continuous updates. It would be interesting if Win7 support gets extended beyond 2020. Meanwhile, I'd like to see Linux and OS X (heck I'll even throw Google in there) acquire a larger share of the desktop/laptop market.

Ha, I have an old dc7700 (Pentium D yo) sitting around here that I reserved the Win10 upgrade on. But as it is, it's stuck waiting for its turn in line, and it's an old machine that I was just testing on anyway. Chances are I'll recycle it before I get around to testing the upgrade. What does Microsoft see that as, someone who reserved the upgrade and then never upgraded? A bit of a failure perhaps?

localhostrulez wrote:

Ha, I have an old dc7700 (Pentium D yo) sitting around here that I reserved the Win10 upgrade on. But as it is, it's stuck waiting for its turn in line, and it's an old machine that I was just testing on anyway. Chances are I'll recycle it before I get around to testing the upgrade. What does Microsoft see that as, someone who reserved the upgrade and then never upgraded? A bit of a failure perhaps?

And then there are others (like myself) who actually did the upgrade on their computers....only to reach the conclusion that there is nothing compelling about Win10 to win us over at this time. Win7 does everything I need it to do; and I went back to it. I strongly feel that there needs to be a more equal playing field with other operating systems. Perhaps by the time Win7 is no longer supported, we might be closer to that end!

Yeah I don't really see the benefit of W10. Compatibility issues, privacy issues, and update issues for no real gain. Recently with the online game I play people have been dropping mid battle only to come back on later saying that windows decided to update.....in the middle of them doing something.....seriously? Passing for now and possibly forever depending on how things go.

I uninstalled Windows 10 spyware from my Ultrabook and went back to 8.1. Much better.

BlackDove wrote:

I uninstalled Windows 10 spyware from my Ultrabook and went back to 8.1. Much better.

MS has now started porting it's W10 spyware to 7 and 8 as well.
Here's a list of updates I've uninstalled/hidden which I consider to be adware/spyware
KB2952664
KB3075851
KB3004375
KB3031432
KB3035583
KB3068708
KB3065987
KB2977759
KB3022345
KB3075249
KB3080149
KB3021917
KB2990214
KB3054476
KB3092627
And if you thought you don't want w10
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... st-in-case

Yeah i have those updates disabled.

morphine wrote:

End User wrote:

Did someone take away your soother? I seriously question your ability to be a moderator now.

Sooo... everyone gets to have an opinion, but not the moderator. Gotcha.

LOL I love your response Morph
I would respond that if you have an opinion I want to know it.
(If you think I'm a JackAss, you can tell me I just won't beleive you. )

morphine wrote:

only mouse engineers use Windows

Never heard this one before, what is it?

Glorious wrote:

morphine wrote:

only mouse engineers use Windows

Never heard this one before, what is it?

The same thing was said about Apple back in 1984 when the first Mac came out and meant the same thing:

"Real computer users only use keyboards."

HERETIC wrote:

And if you thought you don't want w10
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... st-in-case

Well, ars picked up on that one. (I've been uninstalling only KB3035583 on every machine I touch, and so far I haven't seen any Win10 stuff, fingers crossed.) That's it, I've made my decision - I will NOT be installing Windows 10, and I might migrate off Windows entirely. I've had enough of this crap. Microsoft, you lose.

I hope theyre counting uninstalls in their statistics. Theyll probably instead count all the unintentionally downloaded Windows 10s as "instals" to make it look like more oeople want this trash.

I understand all of the hate for Windows 10 and security violations Microsoft has done with it, but I really like Windows 10 to the degree of making it my primary OS instead of a distro of Linux. And all of this is coming from a guy that loves csh and Unix permissions and has used Windows for maybe 30 hours. I think Windows 10 will always be either hated or loved by users.

Yeah, but here's the thing - I'm OK with Windows 10 itself, though not a raving fan. But I just can't get over the privacy aspects, and Microsoft's attitude toward people in pushing out the new OS. Gee, "no means no" - I remembering hearing that when I was a young child. You'd think a company like Microsoft could get the concept.

The only problem with linux is I like stable, no-nonsense enterprise grade stuff, and I want to make sure the product will be around and supported years from now. I like Mint, but it's a constant fork of Ubuntu to begin with. And I don't 100% trust Canonical either. Of course, SuSE and RedHat are big and well supported by OEM biz machines, but they require subscriptions.Something for me to figure out...

The computer illiterate who dont care about privacy and enjoy being advertized to will love it.

BlackDove wrote:

I hope theyre counting uninstalls in their statistics. Theyll probably instead count all the unintentionally downloaded Windows 10s as "instals" to make it look like more oeople want this trash.

Windows 10 is a better OS in every way than 7 or 8.1.

morphine wrote:

BlackDove wrote:

They dont explicitly state that they will do what Windows 10 does. Theyd have to do something illegal themselves to spy on you in a lot of cases. Windows 10 says theyll automatically analyze and forward everything you say and do. Thats the difference.

Are you positively, absolutely sure that it's like you say? Have you carefully read all three? Because I think you may end up being surprised.

Yes. They use VERY different wording. Its subtle the way they word it but it means something very different. Im not saying Apple Google and older Windows are great for privacy but they are nowhere near as much of the front door that 10 is.

BlackDove wrote:

The computer illiterate who dont care about privacy and enjoy being advertized to will love it.

Haha, could be. I try hard to avoid ads in a lot of cases. Want to shove ads in anyway? OK, enjoy the lost business. And maybe that's what Expedia was aiming at when they sent me marketing emails for the next week and a half (despite me unsubscribing to every single one as soon as it came in, and never giving permission to begin with). Quite effective.

Update on original post: Well, so far I've tried Ubuntu, Mint, and openSUSE. Mint's definitely my choice thus far from a UI perspective. Very no-nonsense, focusing on solid desktop use rather than unnecessary features. No usability issues at all. (Though viewing all your drives in the file explorer is a bit odd - that's one aspect of OS X I'm not a fan of them copying.) Plus, loading Cinnamon onto other distros is a pain. Maybe I'll load up Mint on a spare machine, and try and use it as a daily driver for a bit. (The hardware acceleration seems a tad lacking in vmware. Though I do have 4 monitors on this PC, so I can give 2 to each OS. Ha! )

Edit: OK, does anyone know how to disable the screensaver in Linux Mint? Seemingly easy task, but there doesn't seem to be a setting for it unless I use the terminal. People keep saying to use the Brightness/lock settings panel, which doesn't exist (probably because it's a desktop/VM and there is no screen brightness control).

BlackDove wrote:

I hope theyre counting uninstalls in their statistics. Theyll probably instead count all the unintentionally downloaded Windows 10s as "instals" to make it look like more oeople want this trash.

Of course, you know they will. My instinct tells me they will count ALL downloads and present those as current users of Win10. IMO, Microsoft desperately wants to get the masses on Win10; and they are trying very hard to ensure this happens.

scott784 wrote:

Of course, you know they will. My instinct tells me they will count ALL downloads and present those as current users of Win10.

I don't understand this thought process. Microsoft has no reason to lie.

Waco wrote:

scott784 wrote:

Of course, you know they will. My instinct tells me they will count ALL downloads and present those as current users of Win10.

I don't understand this thought process. Microsoft has no reason to lie.

Ehh, they kinda do. It looks better if you can claim you were successful, not to mention that people might be more likely to install Win10 if everyone else is doing it. There's gotta be some psychological explanation behind that one. I guess I'll sit back and watch how this goes, all the while working on migrating my stuff to mint.