Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

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Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:34 pm

I keep reading about this, Valve came up again today with the whole Steam for Linux beta thing... Notch was all grumpy about it a few weeks ago too.

...but I don't get it... I'm running Minecraft and Steam just fine in Win8 and have been since the first preview came out with no problems at all. Sure MS has their own app store now, that's good as far as I'm concerned, options are good, simplicity is good. But anyone can still code up anything else they want and it will run like it always has. I haven't read anything about MS having plans to change that - how could they? So why are Notch and Valve so upset?
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:08 pm

The main complaint I've noticed is that you can't publish WinRT apps through anything but the Windows Store. It's awkward for digital sellers and developers, because it's the new technology and locked to that store.

My personal suspicion is that MS simply hasn't finished the installer yet...but I can understand their concerns.

There are plenty of people who just don't like 8 obviously, which may or may not have anything to do with it. Whether their opinions will change over time has yet to be seen.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:13 pm

That just confuses me further, there are plenty of games that require Steam to run... ...and Minecraft has already been released on 3 different "closed" app stores (iOS, Android, 360)... :-?
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:24 pm

Yes, but those stores began as closed stores. Windows has always been entirely open.

Personally, I think they're just whiners who abhor change. But whatever works.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:39 pm

I think part of their concern is that if Win8 is really successful they may move completely to the Metro/Appstore design in future versions of Windows. So they aren't so much concerned about Win8 itself necessarily, rather the direction it is taking and what that means for future versions of Windows.

drfish wrote:That just confuses me further, there are plenty of games that require Steam to run... ...and Minecraft has already been released on 3 different "closed" app stores (iOS, Android, 360)... :-?


In a lot of ways the Microsoft app store is a competitor to the Steam store. Just as Microsoft takes a cut of sales in their store, Valve takes a cut of the sales in Steam. Valve probably views a built-in app-store as a major threat, since people are more likely to use something that is built in to the OS than a 3rd party program (similar to the complaints about Microsoft including Internet Explorer and no other web browsers)

As for Notch, I think he attributes a lot of Minecraft's success to the relatively open platform of Windows. He may have ported it to other platforms, but that was AFTER it had already achieved enormous popularity on Windows. Windows is a much friendlier platform for developing mods and BETAS with community input and interaction, compared to say iOS.

Just look at DayZ for example. There is no way such an incomplete and buggy game would have been allowed in an "app store", yet it has attracted more than a million players and is now being developed into a stand-alone game simply because it was allowed to grow on an open platform with the support of it's community.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:04 pm

drfish wrote: So why are Notch and Valve so upset?
Because Win8 will force Valve to expend money and effort into making games to be profitable instead of resting on their laurels with Steam and collecting cash by default. That's why.

Seriously, I don't know if anyone's realized this, but Valve's been making the same old game on the same tired engine for like eight years now.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:16 pm

Well, on the other hand, look at Stardock. They had to sell off their publishing stuff so they could get back to making good games. I just finished downloading Fallen Enchantress, and though it isn't the best game I've ever played it's a damn sight better than Elemental was. (Elemental was patched up pretty decently, but at launch it was a disaster.)
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:54 pm

Vrock wrote:
drfish wrote: So why are Notch and Valve so upset?
Because Win8 will force Valve to expend money and effort into making games to be profitable instead of resting on their laurels with Steam and collecting cash by default. That's why.

Seriously, I don't know if anyone's realized this, but Valve's been making the same old game on the same tired engine for like eight years now.


The most updated Source engine isn't so far off of the most updated UE3- and we know better technologies exist.

If Valve wanted to make a game that needed a new engine, they're in a better position to do it now than ever before; I have to assume that they've simply run out of excessive creative talent on that front, which is sad considering just how much they've had. Portal 2 was awesome, and I beat it and the co-op on an Intel HD3000 equipped laptop running at 1366x768. Gorgeous looking game for that level of performance.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:01 pm

Hey... the way I look at it, anything that potentially challenges Windows' stranglehold on PC gaming is a good thing. I wish Valve luck with their Ubuntu Linux Steam beta.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:15 pm

Airmantharp wrote:If Valve wanted to make a game that needed a new engine, they're in a better position to do it now than ever before;

If I remember correctly, the current rumor is that there is a "source 2" in the works, as referenced in the "Source Film Maker" files.

As to win8, I don't like what I see. When I see metro, I see the Xbox Live Screen. And when I boot up xbox live, I see 3/4 of the screen filled with ads, and I PAY for that service. (well not anymore) I don't want my OS becoming that. I don't want one of those rectangles permanently becoming anything but exactly what I want it to be.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:47 pm

Thanks for the heads up- I don't follow Valve so closely these days!

I also haven't owned a console in eight years; I have no idea what it's like to use an Xbox, though I've been tempted to get one of them as a front-end. But from my brief experience with Windows 8 and the Modern UI, I'm with you on the tiles- if MS decides to start taking them over I'm not going to be happy, and conversely, I'm quite happy that Valve is pushing into the Linux space. Gaming is literally the only thing that keeps me using Windows extensively, and being able to move that to Linux (or something else, the new iMac's are looking good!) is becoming appealing.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:55 pm

Airmantharp wrote:Thanks for the heads up- I don't follow Valve so closely these days!

I also haven't owned a console in eight years; I have no idea what it's like to use an Xbox, though I've been tempted to get one of them as a front-end. But from my brief experience with Windows 8 and the Modern UI, I'm with you on the tiles- if MS decides to start taking them over I'm not going to be happy, and conversely, I'm quite happy that Valve is pushing into the Linux space. Gaming is literally the only thing that keeps me using Windows extensively, and being able to move that to Linux (or something else, the new iMac's are looking good!) is becoming appealing.

I recommend you not bother. They're too old to be relevant anymore. I traded my X360 off recently.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:10 pm

Savyg wrote:I recommend you not bother. They're too old to be relevant anymore. I traded my X360 off recently.


The thought came and went, brother! I'd rather have a full PC hooked up, if only because it allows me to work from the couch if I like.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:13 pm

I fail to see why people want a new OS so badly. Win 7 works perfectly fine for all my needs. Sure it doesn't boot in 5 seconds, but I almost never shut it down. Hibernation FTW!

Windows 8 seems like it's designed from the ground up to be a convertible tablet OS, and that's all I'd really want it for. Multi-monitor stuff is cool, but I just don't have the space.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:10 pm

DeadOfKnight wrote:I fail to see why people want a new OS so badly. Win 7 works perfectly fine for all my needs. Sure it doesn't boot in 5 seconds, but I almost never shut it down. Hibernation FTW!

Because it's better. Same reason we got Windows 7.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:54 pm

DeadOfKnight wrote:I fail to see why people want a new OS so badly. Win 7 works perfectly fine for all my needs.


New features that increase stability and productivity. Increased performance and stability. Compatibility with future software.

People each have their own reasons. Personally I am going to stick with Win 7. I'm gonna give Win 8 a miss. I don't like a bunch of things about Win 8, and so I'm not converting over to it.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:59 pm

They don't like it because it puts a default MS owned and curated store front and center in the OS that requires a percentage of the sale price to go to MS to be IN said store. Valve wants to be the ones collecting the distribution money, not MS. Its fairly simple to see.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:55 am

Corrado wrote:They don't like it because it puts a default MS owned and curated store front and center in the OS that requires a percentage of the sale price to go to MS to be IN said store. Valve wants to be the ones collecting the distribution money, not MS. Its fairly simple to see.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:16 am

You have to understand that Gabe Newell, Valve's CEO, has a vested interest against Windows 8. The Windows store directly competes with Steam. If publisher's decide to release their software via the Windows store and not through Steam, that's a loss of the 30% cut that Steam gets.

But for the end user, does it really matter who gets the 30% cut? Valve, Microsoft, Apple, Google are all fighting for that 30% cut. They don't care about us. All we should care about is whether or not we want to buy so-and-so app, in so-and-so marketplace. Let the rich people fight over who gets 30%. They don't actually care about us. They're in it to make a living and make a profit so that their employees have a job and get rich.

Of course, all current and future games will work in Windows 8. It's still Windows. The only difference is whether or not the game publisher wants to sell through Windows store or Steam or any other marketplace. Remember, EA/Origin is pushing their marketplace because they don't want to give anybody a cut. Same for Ubisoft. Why would EA want to sell their title through Steam and have to share the revenue? The reason they have to is Steam has the most visible marketplace on the PC. But if Microsoft's store is front and center, then both Microsoft and Valve now have to fight to get EA to sell through their store.

Why have this weird loyalty to companies? I read some comments by people saying, "well, if they release it on Steam, I'll buy it but if they release it in Windows Store, I won't." It's the same friggin game! Does Newell care about you in the least? For me, if it's a good game, I'll buy it wherever it's offered for the best price. If Steam wants to sell me Need for Speed for $20 and Microsoft wants to sell it for $30, I'll buy it from Steam. competition is good.

now, if you have a vested interest too (like your family works for steam), then definitely show some loyalty. but for the rest of us, we go where the best prices are.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:41 am

onlysublime wrote:You have to understand that Gabe Newell, Valve's CEO, has a vested interest against Windows 8. The Windows store directly competes with Steam. If publisher's decide to release their software via the Windows store and not through Steam, that's a loss of the 30% cut that Steam gets.

But for the end user, does it really matter who gets the 30% cut? Valve, Microsoft, Apple, Google are all fighting for that 30% cut. They don't care about us. All we should care about is whether or not we want to buy so-and-so app, in so-and-so marketplace. Let the rich people fight over who gets 30%. They don't actually care about us. They're in it to make a living and make a profit so that their employees have a job and get rich.
[...]



Now that you explained i would like to ask another question: why would Microsoft create such a condition for competing platforms like Steam when they have already lost the anti-trust case in Europe regarding Internet Explorer? Have they learned nothing? Even if they make their own platform for digital distribution they shouldn't charge their competitors just to be present on the OS and take by the sale fees. If they intend or are already doing this, i expect another lawsuit coming. But i'm no expert and i might be wrong. Thoughts on this?
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:22 am

arclight wrote:Now that you explained i would like to ask another question: why would Microsoft create such a condition for competing platforms like Steam when they have already lost the anti-trust case in Europe regarding Internet Explorer


Gee, maybe because everyone else already has?

Microsoft can't do it but Apple and Google can?

arclight wrote:Even if they make their own platform for digital distribution they shouldn't charge their competitors just to be present on the OS and take by the sale fees.


Again, but Apple can?

arclight wrote:If they intend or are already doing this, i expect another lawsuit coming. But i'm no expert and i might be wrong. Thoughts on this?


It's stupid.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:28 am

Glorious wrote:
arclight wrote:Now that you explained i would like to ask another question: why would Microsoft create such a condition for competing platforms like Steam when they have already lost the anti-trust case in Europe regarding Internet Explorer


Gee, maybe because everyone else already has?

Microsoft can't do it but Apple and Google can?
[...]


I don't own a Mac but you're saying Apple gets a cut from every game sale on Steam for OS X users? That's news to me.

As for Google, what x86 OS do they have that runs Steam?
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:27 am

arclight wrote:I don't own a Mac but you're saying Apple gets a cut from every game sale on Steam for OS X users? That's news to me.


It's news to everyone. What the heck are you talking about? Do you even understand the issue?

I'm saying that Apple already has an app store on OS X. It isn't exactly new either.

So, if Apple is allowed to do it, why can't Microsoft? If it's an issue about the "monopoly power" that Microsoft has in the desktop/notebook space that Apple doesn't, well then, gee. What about the mobile space? Because on iOS Apple not only has an App Store but actually forces you to use it, and Google has an App store as well.

arclight wrote:As for Google, what x86 OS do they have that runs Steam?


Again, do you understand the issue?
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:56 am

Glorious wrote:
arclight wrote:I don't own a Mac but you're saying Apple gets a cut from every game sale on Steam for OS X users? That's news to me.


It's news to everyone. What the heck are you talking about? Do you even understand the issue?

I'm saying that Apple already has an app store on OS X. It isn't exactly new either.

So, if Apple is allowed to do it, why can't Microsoft? If it's an issue about the "monopoly power" that Microsoft has in the desktop/notebook space that Apple doesn't, well then, gee. What about the mobile space? Because on iOS Apple not only has an App Store but actually forces you to use it, and Google has an App store as well.

arclight wrote:As for Google, what x86 OS do they have that runs Steam?


Again, do you understand the issue?


Maybe i don't understand the issue so let me explain what i think i know.

Microsoft made an app store and they offer the possibility to any developer to sell Windows certified software on the app store for a certain fee (on top of the certification fee for Metro). Regarding games, Microsoft's app store will obviously rival Steam.

Here is the part that i may have misunderstood:
I presume that Gabe is upset about the certification process/fees that all games must undergo in order to be fully compatible with the new Windows 8 UI.

For now this might be trivial since the fee is small and the requirments for certification aren't that complicated so compliance should be fairly easy to achieve (but not for indie game developers or for modders especially), but Gabe knows that Microsoft's real intention is to shut down competition.

So with the next installment Microsoft will probably make the App store, like Apple's, the only place to sell and if Steam has to be integrated in there they will also have to share revenue. So, if i'm wrong, please explain it to me so that i may understand.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:57 am

Why would MS want to shut down competition? They'd just be driving everyone away from Windows, and they know it.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:04 am

Savyg wrote:Why would MS want to shut down competition? They'd just be driving everyone away from Windows, and they know it.


For profit ofc and they would most def. not drive every developer away, just a few select ones that made their own online store like Valve with Steam and EA with Origin....for the rest, it's business as usual...who knows maybe they might even pay lower fees at first compared to Steam.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:29 am

Arclight wrote:Even if they make their own platform for digital distribution they shouldn't charge their competitors just to be present on the OS and take by the sale fees. If they intend or are already doing this, i expect another lawsuit coming. But i'm no expert and i might be wrong. Thoughts on this?

AFAIK Steam runs on Win8 exactly like it does in Win7, free download and install with Microsoft not taking any fees or percentage of game sales. For clarity, we'll call this "Desktop Steam".
They can upgrade Desktop Steam to integrate more with Win8, just like you could add additional taskbar functionality to your program in Windows 7. This can cost them time and effort, if they choose to, MS isn't in the loop here.

Enter the Windows Store. There are two ways MS gets money, other companies registering for $100 (a one time thing) and for stuff sold they get a percentage. I am not sure if MS gets anything for free apps (30% of free is $0). Only a hypothetical Metro Steam would require Windows Store. Desktop Steam could be listed in the store and still require certification, but selling Desktop versions via the Windows Store is optional. Desktop Steam or Metro Steam... MS gets no money from Steam sales or in game transactions!

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... 57972.aspx

Arclight wrote:I presume that Gabe is upset about the certification process/fees that all games must undergo in order to be fully compatible with the new Windows 8 UI.

Steam and everything associated with it are Desktop applications, which still run the same. There is a certification for apps sold through the Windows Store (I don't think there is a fee with it), but the only thing Valve as a company has to worry about would be a certifying a Metro Steam app. Seeing as Steam wouldn't be selling Metro apps, nothing sold on Steam would have to go through certification. I guess you can go all slippery slope and claim that Windows will move to the iOS system, but as of right now, that's a far stretch.

Games for Windows Live in theory was a threat to Steam. However, that was executed poorly. This time around Valve sees that the Windows Store has full Microsoft support and that is a very real threat to Steam itself. They're worried about losing their cut. Now they are relying on people's general fondness of Steam to make an emotional argument.

*Edit* Removed blurb about Live Tiles working with Desktop applications.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:34 am

arclight wrote:Microsoft made an app store and they offer the possibility to any developer to sell Windows certified software on the app store for a certain fee (on top of the certification fee for Metro). Regarding games, Microsoft's app store will obviously rival Steam.


We're back to how Apple has already done this. Again.

arclight wrote:Here is the part that i may have misunderstood:
I presume that Gabe is upset about the certification process/fees that all games must undergo in order to be fully compatible with the new Windows 8 UI.


I think he's really just upset that Microsoft is now doing the exact same thing he was doing.

arclight wrote:For now this might be trivial since the fee is small and the requirments for certification aren't that complicated so compliance should be fairly easy to achieve (but not for indie game developers or for modders especially), but Gabe knows that Microsoft's real intention is to shut down competition.


And Gabe is totally pro-competition? Can I use the Steamworks API outside of Steam?

arclight wrote:So with the next installment Microsoft will probably make the App store, like Apple's, the only place to sell and if Steam has to be integrated in there they will also have to share revenue. So, if i'm wrong, please explain it to me so that i may understand.


So they *might* do what Apple already did in the mobile space and could just as equally do in the desktop space, and I'm supposed to be mad at Microsoft?
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:38 am

Arclight wrote:
Savyg wrote:Why would MS want to shut down competition? They'd just be driving everyone away from Windows, and they know it.


For profit ofc and they would most def. not drive every developer away, just a few select ones that made their own online store like Valve with Steam and EA with Origin....for the rest, it's business as usual...who knows maybe they might even pay lower fees at first compared to Steam.

Yes, because driving away your most profitable supporters is a great way to make everyone happy.

That...does not compute.
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Re: Why do Notch and Valve hate Win8?

Postposted on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:58 am

Savyg wrote:
Arclight wrote:
Savyg wrote:Why would MS want to shut down competition? They'd just be driving everyone away from Windows, and they know it.


For profit ofc and they would most def. not drive every developer away, just a few select ones that made their own online store like Valve with Steam and EA with Origin....for the rest, it's business as usual...who knows maybe they might even pay lower fees at first compared to Steam.

Yes, because driving away your most profitable supporters is a great way to make everyone happy.

That...does not compute.


Profitable for whom?

Edit.
Isn't Microsoft doing a simillar thing in the mobile devices space with their Windows Phones?
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