Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

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Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:14 pm

there's no way to sugarcoat this. Windows 8 has set back Microsoft, and Windows, by years, and possibly for good.


I don't mind the classic desktop under Windows 8 but I stay the f*ck away from Metro. Even on the tablets I have used at work (Lenovo Helix/Surface Pro 2) Metro is just horrible.

The minimal Windows 8 based device news from CES this year was definitely a sign of the times.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:22 pm

I'm not sure if they have the capability to do so anymore. Win 8 was their attempt to re-invent the UI and if the go back to a more classic desktop, it will be seen as a failure and falling back to an old UI would give plenty of fodder to people saying MS has lost all creativity.

Then there is also the ever decreasing PC market share. People have already adjusted to more portable devices that handles most of their everyday tasks.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:49 pm

The only thing 'non-classic' about Windows 8's desktop is the lack of a start menu which many nerds have complained about to death. But it does depend upon one's definition of classic...if we mean Windows 3.1 classic, then there would be no start menu :D
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:57 pm

"If you build it, they will come"

It seemed that Microsoft built Windows 8 around the idea that people would want to use touch devices of all kinds to perform computing; we don't. Touch-centric devices make excellent media devices, sure, but touch interfaces don't make for efficient computing.

So we get it, but it's just too forward thinking, even if it is a great idea. In the meantime, stuff like Start8 and the ability to skip the Modern screen on startup largely returns the 'lost' classic functionality, and with a few other tweaks, I much prefer Windows 8 over previous versions.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:16 am

After my one in depth experience, no, just no.

Thank GOD win + E still gets me into win explorer so I could copy a bunch of stuff for a friend's daughter (kid pix, etc) that
was getting a divorce.

W8 leaves little, to nothing after 25 years of UI experience.

If I want a Mac tablet UI, I'll use an iOS device.

With my still pristine G73JH after 3 years, I still slap hands I see reaching to touch the screen. NO!! BAD TOUCH!!
And w/W8 touching is part of the interface? Oh, hell no.

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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:57 am

MadManOriginal wrote:The only thing 'non-classic' about Windows 8's desktop is the lack of a start menu which many nerds have complained about to death. But it does depend upon one's definition of classic...if we mean Windows 3.1 classic, then there would be no start menu :D


Think you have that totally backwards as to who complains about the lack of a start menu. It is the "nerds" that don't mind the missing start menu and preach keyboard shortcuts. The average layman is used to a traditional menu system without a kiosk mode app popping up with every type of document or media file they try to open.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:26 am

Sure, they could sell more if they'd at least install some common sense back into the system. They went from a usable OS to smacking folk in the face with confusion and unfamiliarity. Even if they gave you an option to switch over to a more traditional UI for the home users, that would have been more idea than having the users search all over the place for a back door solution to do the things that came naturally from previous OS builds.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:31 am

Win8 has nothing that would give me any incentive to shift from Win7, I especially don't like the fact that they forced the crappy win8 metro start menu on users without giving any alternate option. I also really dislike the new prompt for handling copy/paste where there are duplicate files. Talk about throwing away what was working well for crappy new stuff. Wow.

If I was at MS I would be getting my act together, the steambox is yet another angle that they are about to get their ass kicked on. Soon all they will have is business productivity for legacy x86 apps, how long until companies start porting their software to other platforms...
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:21 am

What's even more horrible about Win8's touch Tetris GUI (which can be partially disabled and replaced with Classic Shell) is the fact that it prompted most of the system manufacturers to integrate useless touchscreen into many of their devices (like stand-alone monitors) or pre-built systems, particularly All-in-One systems. For example I was recently shopping for such AIO system for certain relative and found a pretty good one from MSI, with some unique features (flicker-free IPS monitor), well-done physical form factor/design, ability to wall mount and relatively powerful dedicated GPU. Unfortunately it (currently) comes with forced touchscreen feature ("10-point finger tracking", blah, blah, blah) because it comes with Win8, and there is (currently) no option to buy it without touchscreen sensors/hardware, and my relative is absolutely not interested in leaving his fingerprints all over the display. Sure, you don't have to use this feature BUT you are still being forced to pay for it (at least with current MSI systems). If Microsoft wouldn't force their awful GUI by default - such issue wouldn't exist (yea, there were systems with touchscreen even before Win8 but NOT in such huge numbers).
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:26 am

There was no reason they couldn't have kept Win 7's interface with Windows 8 and given the users the option to choose which was best for their type of system. They simply chose to not do so because they wanted to push a unified cross-platform interface across mobile, console, and PCs. Don't forget Windows 8 used to have 7's interface that could be enabled with a simple registry edit, until MS deliberately disabled it right before its launch.

I've tried Windows 8 and I've seen others attempt to try it as well. Anything I'd want to do in 8 takes more clicks or keypresses unless I quadruple the number of shortcuts I've memorized, and even then it is still far more hassle launching programs solely via the mouse. The only reason I'd use Win8 at all is because I want free access to Hyper-V. There's lots of good features in Win 8 I do want, but not badly enough to make it my main OS even with all the free incentives like Hyper-V and super-steep discounts they toss around to push adoption.

On a related note, I find it amusing to consider that as of OS X 10.9 Apple is adopting a free OS upgrade model. Linux is already free, and Steam OS will also be free. Microsoft's old business model is changing, and it's only a matter of time before they will be forced to change with it. Only their market size has insulated them till now, but it won't last forever.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:13 am

Deanjo wrote:I'm not sure if they have the capability to do so anymore. Win 8 was their attempt to re-invent the UI and if the go back to a more classic desktop, it will be seen as a failure and falling back to an old UI would give plenty of fodder to people saying MS has lost all creativity.


That's a BS talk - most people already aware that MS failed even if MS are afraid to admit it and MS can still be pretty "creative" in multiple other ways outside of GUI design (which should really be left for the users to modify/design in whatever form they want to, using easy-to-access APIs and built-in design tools similar to WindowBlinds, with an easy single-click way to switch between "stock" and "modded" GUIs). For example, by improving power efficiency - Win8.1 still wastes more battery on my MacBook than the OSX on other partition, even with awful "stock" GUI. Plenty of people (like me) who still want to use Windows OS on their MacBooks will really appreciate more "creative" power saving features. Plus there are many other aspects they can focus on - for example improving the efficiency of their DirectX API in some "creative" ways so there would be no need at all for redundant proprietary alternatives like new Glide from AMD. Better voice controls, better stock "apps" like mail/photos and other "creative" improvements will still be very noticeable and appreciated by many users.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:53 am

Windows 8 should have been an OS that could be installed on all desktops, laptops, and tablets, and that would automatically (or by user input) change from a desktop UI to the Metro/Modern UI when appropriate. Applications and programs should have been handled in the way that made Windows popular -- some big name companies put out bulky commercial software, and the user community is free to write and distribute applications through multiple channels.

Instead, Microsoft tried to copy Apple's business model: forcing its users to use a particular UI and get their applications through a single closed source, the Windows Store. This didn't work. Windows customers expect a certain UI from a Windows product, and they expect applications to be freely developed and distributed.

Microsoft needs to play to its strengths in order to succeed. I have no idea why it abandoned their successful business model in favor of Apple's, but it needs to go back to their own strategy, unless it always wants to play second fiddle to Apple. A successful Microsoft strategy will play out this way.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:03 am

I don't really care what happens to MS. On one hand, they make a pretty good OS, but on the other it is expensive, they lock down programs on it, and recently they just try to force trash on their customers.

The way I see it, MS is good for three things. Checking emails, playing games, and running business programs. Tablets browse the web well enough so they've lost a lot there. With steamOS they are now under attack for games as well. If valve does well, and I hope they do, all that will be left for MS is business and they would be happy to swap to linux to save money if they could.

It certainly feels like MS could become irrelevant within ten years.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:10 am

Win 8 isn't so bad. You just have to disable all the crappy stuff that bogs down the UX.

1) Use classic shell / Start 8
2) Configure all default programs for music, videos, photos, etc... to not be Metro apps

Now you can enjoy the under the hood enhancements without any of the terrible new UI :)
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:54 am

After the huge failures that were Win98 ME, and Vista and Windows 8's new forced UI, after decades of proprietary office document formats, after unexplained price increases in retail copies of their software, after the years of stagnant browser improvement that IE6t caused, after all the times I've seen Microsoft try to poison open standards to ensure customer lockin, I've had enough of dealing with Microsoft. They are not good stewards of the IT landscape. It is time for their demise and rebirth, as IBM went through, so that other companies can have a chance to rise up and offer new products and services and ways of thinking.

I"m done with Microsoft. Win7 is the last Microsoft OS on my systems. Android, iOS, Linux - they are the new computing platforms in my life. Each of them have their strengths and weaknesses, but they are quicker to react to market demand. I don't mind working within their confines (iOS, walled garden) because they offer me a real service (iTunes, huge App Store). I don't mine their open platform (Android) because it keeps devices cheap and spurs innovation. And I don't mind tweaking some things here and there (Linux) because those tweaks are to add features I want or learn something new.

Microsoft used to provide all that, but their incessant need to obtain the last 5% of market share has left them greedy, overly controlling, bumbling, unresponsive and down right destructive. it is time to let them burn to the ground until the rats that caused this internal disease flee.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:10 pm

I'll just leave this here:

http://jay-machalani.squarespace.com/bl ... -windows-8

They'll never fix Windows as far as I'm concerned (that would require giving the user a lot more power and ceasing from trying to obfuscate everything in the UI), but the above concept would get me to purchase Win8 immediately. And I run and love Linux!
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:17 pm

FireGryphon wrote:Instead, Microsoft tried to copy Apple's business model: forcing its users to use a particular UI and get their applications through a single closed source, the Windows Store. This didn't work. Windows customers expect a certain UI from a Windows product, and they expect applications to be freely developed and distributed

Except that isn't Apple's business model. While they do have a tendency to decide what is the best approach and only give you that, they almost always get it right or close to right, and they actually put lots of well educated design expertise and thought into it. But more importantly, even Apple has explicitly recognized (based on the above) two things MS didn't get: Touch screens don't work well on larger devices; they're too fatiguing and not right for the work model. And, that different types of devices have different interface needs; they've cross pollinated lots of features between mobile and desktop while allowing them to keep their distinct advantages.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:28 pm

Buub wrote:
FireGryphon wrote:Instead, Microsoft tried to copy Apple's business model: forcing its users to use a particular UI and get their applications through a single closed source, the Windows Store. This didn't work. Windows customers expect a certain UI from a Windows product, and they expect applications to be freely developed and distributed

Except that isn't Apple's business model. While they do have a tendency to decide what is the best approach and only give you that, they almost always get it right or close to right, and they actually put lots of well educated design expertise and thought into it. But more importantly, even Apple has explicitly recognized (based on the above) two things MS didn't get: Touch screens don't work well on larger devices; they're too fatiguing and not right for the work model. And, that different types of devices have different interface needs; they've cross pollinated lots of features between mobile and desktop while allowing them to keep their distinct advantages.


I said in my post (first paragraph) that Microsoft's first error was pushing one UI on all use cases. Clearly we both agree on that.

I also said in my post that Microsoft tried copying Apple's business model and it didn't work. I think we agree on that, and you're confusing the issue. A closed system with a single, company-controlled marketplace is central to the Apple software model, and it's also the model that Microsoft is trying. The only difference between the two is that Apple does it right, and Microsoft doesn't. Just because one works and the other fails doesn't mean they're different models.

Microsoft's two failures are that it pushed one UI on all use cases and ineffectively copied Apple's model instead of giving users adaptability and choice that is the hallmark of the Windows world.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:31 pm

Oh look, another thread complaining about W8. Awesome.

I don't use W8 on a daily basis so I don't have grounds to complain as much as others, but if it's this easy (see below) why are you all still whining?

Prestige Worldwide wrote:Win 8 isn't so bad. You just have to disable all the crappy stuff that bogs down the UX.

1) Use classic shell / Start 8
2) Configure all default programs for music, videos, photos, etc... to not be Metro apps

Now you can enjoy the under the hood enhancements without any of the terrible new UI :)
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:52 pm

Microsoft is losing its top developers in every org by the boatloads every day. I can easily see the next version of Windows being the last version of significance.

Though they are in not nearly as bad a situation as Apple once was. Stock price is doing well. And they still have relevance in enterprise.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:06 am

Well as Ars points out the rumor mill IS heating up:

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... 5-arrival/

I look forward to 9 because if they continue on the same track it will be a 'good' OS.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:57 am

DancinJack wrote:Oh look, another thread complaining about W8. Awesome.

I don't use W8 on a daily basis so I don't have grounds to complain as much as others, but if it's this easy (see below) why are you all still whining?

Prestige Worldwide wrote:Win 8 isn't so bad. You just have to disable all the crappy stuff that bogs down the UX.

1) Use classic shell / Start 8
2) Configure all default programs for music, videos, photos, etc... to not be Metro apps

Now you can enjoy the under the hood enhancements without any of the terrible new UI :)


Oh look, another idiot without first-hand experience and who is absolutely unable to comprehend other people's posts is jumping to conclusions. Awesome. :roll:

Just because YOU can be satisfied with disabling stock Tetris GUI and its features and replacing it with Classic Shell on your personal PC/laptop does not change the FACT that other people are being FORCED to pay for unnecessary hardware features associated with Win8's touch interface or FORCED to suffer through this awful GUI when working on other people's (or on workplace's) laptops/PCs.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:09 am

JohnC wrote:Oh look, another idiot without first-hand experience and who is absolutely unable to comprehend other people's posts is jumping to conclusions. Awesome. :roll:

Just because YOU can be satisfied with disabling stock Tetris GUI and its features and replacing it with Classic Shell on your personal PC/laptop does not change the FACT that other people are being FORCED to pay for unnecessary hardware features associated with Win8's touch interface or FORCED to suffer through this awful GUI when working on other people's (or on workplace's) laptops/PCs.


Glad you had to resort to a personal attack right off the bat. Well played. I didn't jump to any conclusions, nor do I not have any first hand experience. I have used W8 with and without classic shell and other utilities to make it more W7ish.

Sorry you feel that you're being FORCED to use W8 and it's "awful GUI" so much. There are other options. Explore, my friend!
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:47 am

So on Windows 9 actual front, the word from those people I know who may or may not work in Redmond WA or Las Colinas TX for some company say that they have desktop Metro apps and a replacement start menu (it's basically a totally new start menu, but apparently it works really well.) Which sounds great to me. WinRT is fine, but the presentation is what sucked.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:58 pm

Your friends who may or may not work in Redmond should also know that the flat, bland graphical style of Windows 8 is unanimously hated by anyone who tries to use it seriously. In the old days, windows could be themed. Now it's just "here's a dull, low-contrast solution that runs acceptably on low-powered tablets. We hope you like it on your desktop too because that's all were giving you chumps"

The list of things that NOBODY likes about windows 8 is rather large, if Redmond has any sense it will actually do something about all the glaring problems rather than ignoring them and trying out some new and equally hair-brained ideas in the hope that they don't suck as hard.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:38 pm

All Microsoft needs to do to produce a winner is listen to users and developers instead of letting a cadre of VPs hold the IT world hostage in a bid to remake reality in their own image. All of W8's problems were well known but got buried in a huge pile of marketing BS. If they don't turn things around with Windows 9 the enterprise world is probably going to deem them unreliable and find other vendors, at which point there's no coming back.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:14 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:Your friends who may or may not work in Redmond should also know that the flat, bland graphical style of Windows 8 is unanimously hated by anyone who tries to use it seriously. In the old days, windows could be themed. Now it's just "here's a dull, low-contrast solution that runs acceptably on low-powered tablets. We hope you like it on your desktop too because that's all were giving you chumps"

The list of things that NOBODY likes about windows 8 is rather large, if Redmond has any sense it will actually do something about all the glaring problems rather than ignoring them and trying out some new and equally hair-brained ideas in the hope that they don't suck as hard.


I've see a few people who didn't like the new theme, but by and large - no I cannot say I've seen universal hate for the theme. I can say I personally hate the Start Screen and Metro app design, the rest *meh* I don't really care now that the mouse problem is fixed.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:07 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:Your friends who may or may not work in Redmond should also know that the flat, bland graphical style of Windows 8 is unanimously hated by anyone who tries to use it seriously. In the old days, windows could be themed. Now it's just "here's a dull, low-contrast solution that runs acceptably on low-powered tablets. We hope you like it on your desktop too because that's all were giving you chumps"

The list of things that NOBODY likes about windows 8 is rather large, if Redmond has any sense it will actually do something about all the glaring problems rather than ignoring them and trying out some new and equally hair-brained ideas in the hope that they don't suck as hard.

This. It's like we've been sucked into a time warp back to 3.1, except with fisher price colors. Everything, and I mean Everything is 2d, and I can't stand how every aspect of the gui has no depth and you can't tell where elements begin and end because they all blend together.

I was reading that article about fixing windows 8, and by and large if that's the only fixes they're going to do, w9 is going to tank just as bad as w8. Those duct tape fixes are what should have been in 8.1, and they don't come anywhere near far enough for w9. MS doesn't have room for another half-baked OS. They need to bring back everything that they removed from w7, and stop trying to make the OS run and look like a tablet. I see this being the forced emergence of linux on the desktop from the mass exodus of classic windows users that hate the fisher price gui, and there is no going back once that happens.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:16 pm

*shurg* Everyone has their own taste. I personally hated the skeumorphism in previous versions of Windows and I am totally glad it's gone, but honestly the window dressing is just such a minor thing.

What made Windows 7 such a success? It was speed, or actually the perception of speed. People didn't like Vista because it looked different and it was slow, specially on certain platforms where it should have been fast. By the time Windows 7 came along people got used to the look and the speed was just enough faster that people noticed and so they were happy. Of course compared to Vista AT THE TIME, it wasn't really that much faster, it was perceptions because of what had "tainted" Vista.

Windows 8 is tainted, so if you come out with Windows 9 and it still runs all the old software pretty much AND it fixes the thing that's tainted - poof it's a hit.
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Re: Windows 9 - Microsoft desperately needs a winner

Postposted on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:42 pm

W9 will NOT be a hit if it looks exactly like 8, because the complaint is with the tacky GUI, unlike Vista. *Poof* MS is dead. -Vista was disliked because of speed and UAC, not the GUI, and linux has GUIs comparable to w7. People will ditch windows en masse if MS won't fix the gui. Oh, and 3d scrollbars/other isn't skeumorphism because it's functional. I like to actually see where I am on a page and have proper borders, instead of having a single color DOS bar. DOS. It's literally a throwback to DOS or 3.1, and it was done solely for tablets, which has no business affecting the desktop gui. Apple had problems with skeumorphism, but that was an elaborate design choice to make it seem fancy and worth paying the premiums. Windows was always functional design, and Metro is anything BUT functional. IMO, the stupid brightly colored squares is the real form over function problem, and that's why people don't like it.
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