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bthylafh
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Sat May 02, 2015 11:13 am

just brew it! wrote:
TBH I'm not a huge fan of KDE's start menu either, but in the grand scheme of things that's not a deal-breaker. KDE is currently my daily use DE.

This is my desktop layout. Taskbar at the bottom, launchers for all of my frequently used applications on an auto-hide panel at the left, virtual desktop switcher in the upper left corner, status widgets in the upper right corner, and desktop set to folder view (instead of whatever they call that weird mode it defaults to). I leave the top center panel area empty, since when I run VMs that's where the VirtualBox or VMware system bar goes, and I like to keep the layouts relatively consistent between my "real" machines and my VMs. I also set up global hotkeys to navigate between (and send windows to) each virtual desktop, and to control the music player (since I tend to buy keyboards without media keys).


That's a pretty decent idea, actually. I'll trial it in a virtual machine and see how I like it, thanks!
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Sat May 02, 2015 12:27 pm

Dirge wrote:
Next up I tried KDE which I have fond memories of but haven't uses in several years. I felt the latest spin of KDE was disappointing, being the sluggiest to load and I can only describe it as a bit of a throw back to the 90s with is start menu layout feeling like it got in my way. Strangely after installing KDE Ubuntu now became Kubuntu at boot time.


KDE relies heavily on the video card drivers. If it's sluggish, it's because the 3D performance of the video drivers aren't great.

KDE5 changes the start menu to something a little more like the old 3.5 menu, and you can change back to the older 3.5 style in the menu settings in KDE4.

Kinda bummed with the experience of trying out different desktop environments on Ubuntu. Hopefully its not as bad with other distros.


The experience is better in other distros, it is at least in Fedora. I've installed Enlightenment, KDE, Gnome, Xfce, Xmonad, Ratpoison, i3, and others in Fedora without a problem. Fedora really does try to modular and keep things from interfering with each other.
 
bthylafh
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Mon May 04, 2015 9:31 pm

bthylafh wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
TBH I'm not a huge fan of KDE's start menu either, but in the grand scheme of things that's not a deal-breaker. KDE is currently my daily use DE.

This is my desktop layout. Taskbar at the bottom, launchers for all of my frequently used applications on an auto-hide panel at the left, virtual desktop switcher in the upper left corner, status widgets in the upper right corner, and desktop set to folder view (instead of whatever they call that weird mode it defaults to). I leave the top center panel area empty, since when I run VMs that's where the VirtualBox or VMware system bar goes, and I like to keep the layouts relatively consistent between my "real" machines and my VMs. I also set up global hotkeys to navigate between (and send windows to) each virtual desktop, and to control the music player (since I tend to buy keyboards without media keys).


That's a pretty decent idea, actually. I'll trial it in a virtual machine and see how I like it, thanks!


I ended up implementing the (to me) interesting parts in Xfce instead, whose panels are easier to deal with. Bonus: the Whisker Menu extension makes for a pretty decent start menu, complete with Win7-style search field and easy resizing.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue May 12, 2015 4:57 pm

I'll put in a plug for Slackware. If you would like a 'desktopized' version of Slackware, I would recommend Salix.

Dirge wrote:
I enjoy the user experience of running Debian stable along with the apt package manager. I don't want to become chained to any one distribution and was wondering if anyone could suggest a similarly robust distro worth trying out? I guess I would prefer to avoid a rolling release as I don't think it can guarantee the stability I am used to.
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue May 12, 2015 5:03 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Yeah, I kind of get the impression that many (if not most) Debian developers and users are insular, long-time, hard core Open Source evangelists...

Which is why I'm surprised they went with systemd, as it does not seem to fit with *nix philosophy.
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue May 12, 2015 6:39 pm

DrCR wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Yeah, I kind of get the impression that many (if not most) Debian developers and users are insular, long-time, hard core Open Source evangelists...

Which is why I'm surprised they went with systemd, as it does not seem to fit with *nix philosophy.

The rumor I heard was that the Ubuntu people (Ubuntu being Debian's biggest direct downstream distro) were really pushing for it. Which, on the surface, is also bizarre, since Ubuntu has their own init replacement (upstart). I suppose if I took the time to understand all the politics involved it might make more sense. Or maybe not.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue May 12, 2015 7:38 pm

Systemd makes sense for desktops and phones. It follows the style of OS X's launchd and Windows' service loop, and I was more shocked Canonicial was holding on to upstart after systemd was released.

DrCR wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Yeah, I kind of get the impression that many (if not most) Debian developers and users are insular, long-time, hard core Open Source evangelists...

Which is why I'm surprised they went with systemd, as it does not seem to fit with *nix philosophy.


It doesn't fit the *nix philosophy. It's giant monolith of software that patches over the kernel's poor IPC.

A lot of the old guard has been replaced by new turks, and the new turks aren't as steeped in *nix philosophy as the old guard.
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue May 12, 2015 10:22 pm

just brew it! wrote:
DrCR wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Yeah, I kind of get the impression that many (if not most) Debian developers and users are insular, long-time, hard core Open Source evangelists...

Which is why I'm surprised they went with systemd, as it does not seem to fit with *nix philosophy.

The rumor I heard was that the Ubuntu people (Ubuntu being Debian's biggest direct downstream distro) were really pushing for it. Which, on the surface, is also bizarre, since Ubuntu has their own init replacement (upstart). I suppose if I took the time to understand all the politics involved it might make more sense. Or maybe not.


It's my understanding that Debian and Ubuntu's people don't get along that well anymore, or they didn't at one time. This is why they're no longer compatible with one another: you can't install one's packages on the other.
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Glorious
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Wed May 13, 2015 6:11 am

JBI wrote:
The rumor I heard was that the Ubuntu people (Ubuntu being Debian's biggest direct downstream distro) were really pushing for it. Which, on the surface, is also bizarre, since Ubuntu has their own init replacement (upstart). I suppose if I took the time to understand all the politics involved it might make more sense. Or maybe not.


It was the other way around. Debian went for systemd first. Canonical just went with the flow of the upstream and dropped upstart. I obviously don't know the internal politics of Ubuntu, but at least publicly they explicitly said that they "lost."
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Wed May 13, 2015 7:31 am

Glorious wrote:
JBI wrote:
The rumor I heard was that the Ubuntu people (Ubuntu being Debian's biggest direct downstream distro) were really pushing for it. Which, on the surface, is also bizarre, since Ubuntu has their own init replacement (upstart). I suppose if I took the time to understand all the politics involved it might make more sense. Or maybe not.

It was the other way around. Debian went for systemd first. Canonical just went with the flow of the upstream and dropped upstart. I obviously don't know the internal politics of Ubuntu, but at least publicly they explicitly said that they "lost."

Ahh, but there are Canonical employees on the Debian committee. According to a friend who is a long-time Debian user, and much closer to the Linux community than I am (he's done some Linux kernel hacking and had patches accepted upstream), the rumor is that it wasn't as simple as "Debian (systemd) vs. Canonical (upstart)". </tinfoil-hat-mode>
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Wed May 13, 2015 7:34 am

just brew it! wrote:
Ahh, but there are Canonical employees on the Debian committee. According to a friend who is a long-time Debian user, and much closer to the Linux community than I am (he's done some Linux kernel hacking and had patches accepted upstream), the rumor is that it wasn't as simple as "Debian (systemd) vs. Canonical (upstart)". </tinfoil-hat-mode>

Why does this not surprise me?
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Glorious
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Wed May 13, 2015 7:36 am

JBI wrote:
Ahh, but there are Canonical employees on the Debian committee. According to a friend who is a long-time Debian user, and much closer to the Linux community than I am (he's done some Linux kernel hacking and had patches accepted upstream), the rumor is that it wasn't as simple as "Debian (systemd) vs. Canonical (upstart)". </tinfoil-hat-mode>


Internal politics then, I guess. <shrug>

It wouldn't be the first time that the Ubuntu ship was steered from below as opposed to from up top.
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Wed May 13, 2015 8:37 am

bthylafh wrote:
It's my understanding that Debian and Ubuntu's people don't get along that well anymore, or they didn't at one time. This is why they're no longer compatible with one another: you can't install one's packages on the other.

What? Since when? I've never run into any trouble installing generic .deb packages on Ubuntu installs.

(Well, I have, but more because of bad package construction/very weird dependencies, not because of system incompatibility.)
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Fri May 15, 2015 12:14 pm

Chuckaluphagus wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
It's my understanding that Debian and Ubuntu's people don't get along that well anymore, or they didn't at one time. This is why they're no longer compatible with one another: you can't install one's packages on the other.

What? Since when? I've never run into any trouble installing generic .deb packages on Ubuntu installs.

(Well, I have, but more because of bad package construction/very weird dependencies, not because of system incompatibility.)


*shrug* I've read in a few different places that you can't take a Debian .deb (presumably one from their archive) and it be guaranteed to work on Ubuntu. Certainly you can't mix and match the archives in your /etc/apt/sources.list file.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Fri May 22, 2015 5:37 pm

Flatland_Spider wrote:
Systemd makes sense for desktops and phones. It follows the style of OS X's launchd and Windows' service loop, and I was more shocked Canonicial was holding on to upstart after systemd was released.

DrCR wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Yeah, I kind of get the impression that many (if not most) Debian developers and users are insular, long-time, hard core Open Source evangelists...

Which is why I'm surprised they went with systemd, as it does not seem to fit with *nix philosophy.


It doesn't fit the *nix philosophy. It's giant monolith of software that patches over the kernel's poor IPC.

A lot of the old guard has been replaced by new turks, and the new turks aren't as steeped in *nix philosophy as the old guard.

The "UNIX Philosophy" that people keep using as an argument angle against systemd is useless. I'm pretty sure many parts of the Linux kernel don't honour it either. Binary blobs and a bunch of ways to interface with non-free and code/license incompatible drivers are probably also not "UNIX philosophy" either.

No one whines about that, though.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Fri May 22, 2015 5:42 pm

I'm also throwing openSUSE out there as a recommendation. While it's not technically enterprise grade like its SLED kin, it's rock solid when you're running the regular release and not Tumbleweed. I'm in the planning stages of deploying it on all development machines when my business opens our office space.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:09 pm

Run Slackware, man up. Sytemd is just the logical conclusion to Sys V which was always heresy.

BSD init is the one true way. You have control.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:24 pm

PenGun wrote:
Run Slackware, man up. Sytemd is just the logical conclusion to Sys V which was always heresy.

BSD init is the one true way. You have control.

I agree. Slackware totally makes you masculine in the same way that a super hairy chest, Speedos, and the year 1998 are all entirely relevant in 2015.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:23 am

PenGun wrote:
Run Slackware, man up. Sytemd is just the logical conclusion to Sys V which was always heresy.

BSD init is the one true way. You have control.


Quoted for the truth.

Although, run Gentoo. Compiling from source is the real way to install software. None of this pre-compiled binary junk. ;)

jmcknight wrote:
The "UNIX Philosophy" that people keep using as an argument angle against systemd is useless. I'm pretty sure many parts of the Linux kernel don't honour it either. Binary blobs and a bunch of ways to interface with non-free and code/license incompatible drivers are probably also not "UNIX philosophy" either.


You're confusing GNU's philosophy of unencumbered software with the Unix Philosophy. GNU doesn't want binary blobs and other software which impedes people's personal freedom, and part of that freedom is to inspect and modify the code which runs on their system and to freely distribute the code. Thus, no binary blobs or proprietary code.

The Unix Philosophy on the other hand, doesn't care about any of that. It's general guidelines about software engineering, and it has nothing to do with license politics. (http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch01s06.html)

jmcknight wrote:
Slackware totally makes you masculine in the same way that a super hairy chest, Speedos, and the year 1998 are all entirely relevant in 2015.


I know some girls who would disagree with that. ;)
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:35 am

jmcknight wrote:
I agree. Slackware totally makes you masculine in the same way that a super hairy chest, Speedos, and the year 1998 are all entirely relevant in 2015.


I'd never make the argument from masculinity, and can't imagine who still is.* But Slackware hasn't stayed in one place since the '90s, and skewing conservative in its underpinnings while offering up to date packages and an experience in line with mainline Linux works really well. It's not my job to sell others on it, but the umpteenth instance of "lol slackware is OLD" grates.

Flatland_Spider wrote:
Although, run Gentoo. Compiling from source is the real way to install software. None of this pre-compiled binary junk. ;)


SlackBuilds give you the best of both worlds - pop it into the same folder as the source code, compile, and presto - you wind up with a package that can be backed up for later or shared.

* edit: Well, aside from PenGun. But I think he was jokingly urging you to embrace the challenge of it, because it can be really rewarding.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:22 pm

Whenever people hate on Systemd, I always suggest one thing and if anything it celebrates the wonders of open source and the modern internet. If it's really so bad, create something better. Hell, you can even fork it or you can fork sysvinit and make it better than what you perceive Systemd to be. Don't have the skills, learn and obtain these skills *then* write something better. You can even crowdfund this sort of thing.

Or you can just not use Linux too.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:57 pm

pikaporeon wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
I'm not entirely sure I'd call a distro that still uses LILO by default "sane", but whatever floats your boat. :P

I use LILO to make sure anyone who uses my PC knows im a computer hacker

(I can't believe that article is 14 years old. Still one of my favourite things on the internet(


I cracked up after reading the part in that link about AMD.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:11 pm

I like Ubuntu. I usually only use the LTR releases. I'm a bit of an audiophile, so cranking up the sound quality in PulseAudio has been a nice experience for me. Unless your using ASIO or some form of bit-perfect streaming in Windows, it can't hold a candle to the sound quality in Linux with a few simple tweaks to the daemon.conf file for PulseAudio. 3D acceleration seems to be solid with NVidia cards, and Steam has done a decent job of bringing gaming to Linux. It was a nightmare to get anything to work back when I was in college about 14 years ago. With contributions and support from big companies now that they have seen it as a viable operating system for personal use, it rarely gives a headache if you aren't trying to run exotic hardware. It worked great on my Asus Xonar Essence ST. :-) Unless your willing to pay double the price for what a Mac is worth for the sake of a pretty OS that tries to make the user feel stupid (especially back before OS X), then I'd say go with Ubuntu, or Linux Mint, another good distro that uses Ubuntu as a base.
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:52 pm

DrDominodog51 wrote:
pikaporeon wrote:
bthylafh wrote:
I'm not entirely sure I'd call a distro that still uses LILO by default "sane", but whatever floats your boat. :P

I use LILO to make sure anyone who uses my PC knows im a computer hacker

(I can't believe that article is 14 years old. Still one of my favourite things on the internet(

I cracked up after reading the part in that link about AMD.

All the people in the comments who think it was serious are almost as funny as the article itself.

confusedpenguin wrote:
I like Ubuntu. I usually only use the LTR releases. I'm a bit of an audiophile, so cranking up the sound quality in PulseAudio has been a nice experience for me. Unless your using ASIO or some form of bit-perfect streaming in Windows, it can't hold a candle to the sound quality in Linux with a few simple tweaks to the daemon.conf file for PulseAudio.

I'm not an audiophile, but I do appreciate the tweakability of the audio stack. I slip JACK into the mix as well, between PulseAudio and ALSA. Gives you a bunch of additional options for routing audio, EQ and effects plugins, etc... I've been playing around a little bit with MIDI sequencing (Rosegarden/Fluidsynth), so it is nice to have the added flexibility and capabilities that JACK provides.
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:59 pm

jmcknight wrote:
PenGun wrote:
Run Slackware, man up. Sytemd is just the logical conclusion to Sys V which was always heresy.

BSD init is the one true way. You have control.

I agree. Slackware totally makes you masculine in the same way that a super hairy chest, Speedos, and the year 1998 are all entirely relevant in 2015.


Bailed on windose at NT 4. NT 3.51 was a good OS but 4 was not so great. I stepped in to Slack at 3.2 in 97 I think. Never looked back. The Slack 14 I have running is bulletproof and does just what I want it to do.

I have my games in Win 10 which looks promising but my real computer life is all Slackware. There is even be a newish Debian dist installed around here somewhere, I don't use it..
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:37 pm

I have this recurring condition where once every 12-18 months something in life pushes me to revisit Linux. Every single time I end up bailing. The sad fact is that I need programs that need Windows. But something new might be happening. My two kids have reached the age (10 & 8) where because of school requirements they legitimately need a computer. The fantastic thing is that everything they need is online. That the perfect door for Linux to walk through.

I downloaded Debian and had issues with the USB wifi adapter. Downloaded Ubuntu and it just works. Fired up Firefox (!?! not even Ice Weasel?) and cruised some sites - everything works so far! Sat the kids down in front of it and without a word from me they find Firefox and start using the computer. Awesome. Linux might finally get to enjoy and extended stay at my house.

Not being a Linux purist at all (I abandoned those aspirations), I just want stuff to work. I don't care about where the task bar docks - left, right, bottom - or where menus are. I just want the software I need and everything needs to just work. Ubuntu seems like the best option in that regard. I've always very much liked the idea of Linux but didn't have it in me to do the work to make it work. Ubuntu, at least, seems to be getting to the point where I don't have to do any work. It also helps that everything the kids need is on the web, so I don't need to worry about stupid Windows programs.
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:46 am

My kids have accounts on the family Linux PC. Their accounts are ordinary user ones so no matter what they do then the most damage they can do is to their own account. Just as well as they enjoy all kinds of silly flash games that are probably full of malware.
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:20 am

flip-mode wrote:
I have this recurring condition where once every 12-18 months something in life pushes me to revisit Linux. Every single time I end up bailing. The sad fact is that I need programs that need Windows.

Depending on what those programs are, and how frequently you need them, a Windows VM (VirtualBox or VMware) might be a viable option. The entire Windows system is effectively sandboxed, and rolling back to a known good state is stupid-simple since the entire VM lives in a folder on the host system (so you can back it up and restore it just by copying the folder). VirtualBox (and paid versions of VMware) also have VM snapshot capabilities, which use less disk space than making a full copy (since it only stores deltas), but you incur a performance penalty; I prefer to just copy the whole folder when I want a checkpoint of the system state.

flip-mode wrote:
But something new might be happening. My two kids have reached the age (10 & 8) where because of school requirements they legitimately need a computer. The fantastic thing is that everything they need is online. That the perfect door for Linux to walk through.

Yup. For all its issues, this whole "Cloud" trend has made it easier for non-techies to get useful work done on Linux.

flip-mode wrote:
I downloaded Debian and had issues with the USB wifi adapter. Downloaded Ubuntu and it just works. Fired up Firefox (!?! not even Ice Weasel?) and cruised some sites - everything works so far! Sat the kids down in front of it and without a word from me they find Firefox and start using the computer. Awesome. Linux might finally get to enjoy and extended stay at my house.

The Firefox/Iceweasel/Thunderbird/Icedove re-branding mess is purely a Debian thing. I forget the details, IIRC it has something to do with Mozilla's branding requirements being incompatible with some part of the Debian license. The major downstream distros (Ubuntu and Mint) restore those packages to their "normal" names as part of their own re-branding of Debian.

If you're a Chrome fan, it works quite well on Ubuntu as well. It's not in the official Ubuntu repository (since it's not Open Source), but Google has Debian/Ubuntu compatible packages available on the normal Chrome download site. The Ubuntu repository does have Chromium, which is Chrome stripped of all the non-Open Source components; but you lose the bundled PDF and Flash integration, and it is not updated as frequently (I can see how some people would see the lack of integrated PDF/Flash as a plus, or prefer the "pure" Open Source version, so that choice is there too).

flip-mode wrote:
Not being a Linux purist at all (I abandoned those aspirations), I just want stuff to work. I don't care about where the task bar docks - left, right, bottom - or where menus are. I just want the software I need and everything needs to just work. Ubuntu seems like the best option in that regard. I've always very much liked the idea of Linux but didn't have it in me to do the work to make it work. Ubuntu, at least, seems to be getting to the point where I don't have to do any work. It also helps that everything the kids need is on the web, so I don't need to worry about stupid Windows programs.

Windows Vista is what pushed me to give it a serious go on the desktop. The first couple of years were pretty rough. I stubbornly pushed on, and now I can't imaging going back to Windows as my primary OS; at some point (probably around 2010?) I crossed a line where working in Linux just feels more natural to me than Windows. Even at work (corporate issue Dell desktop with Windows 7 Enterprise), I spend most of my time in a Linux VM, dropping back to the Windows host just to check e-mail (Outlook).
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Chuckaluphagus
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:27 am

flip-mode wrote:
I have this recurring condition where once every 12-18 months something in life pushes me to revisit Linux. Every single time I end up bailing. The sad fact is that I need programs that need Windows.

I use Linux as my primary OS, but I need some Windows programs for work purposes, specifically Microsoft Office to be absolutely certain of document compatibility (I love LibreOffice, but if the other end is using Microsoft Office I can't take a chance on it) and some industry-specific programs.

My solution is to run Windows 7 in a virtual machine using VirtualBox, with all the necessary software installed there and the virtual machine's Internet connection disabled. I can download any files I need to work in the Linux host, drop them in a folder shared with the virtual machine, work on them/finish them within Windows, then upload or attach to e-mail again from Linux. I don't need to worry about updates or vulnerabilities in the Windows 7 installation because it never gets exposed to the Internet; in a worst-case scenario, I have regular snapshots to restore to if something does go screwy. So far (I've been working this way for a few years now) it's worked perfectly.

VirtualBox is free, a Windows license is inexpensive in the long run. It's very easy to set up, and I've found it to be an excellent solution.
 
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Re: Solid alternatives to Debian

Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:08 am

I get what you're saying, you like Debian and want something like Debian, minus the ancient. Ubuntu LTS is probably closest. You might like RHEL as well, grab CentOS/Scientific Linux/etc and give one a try.

I've been running Arch for the last year, and running that, and before that Debian and Gentoo, has taught me that distribution choice is about package availability, and the freshness vs. tested scale. Beyond that, look and feel are (or at least should be) up to you.

Also, don't be afraid to try something new. I like apt just fine, but I also speak pacman, yast, zypper, emerge, makepkg, yum/dnf, and I get good usage out of all of those.

Also, VMs. Oh Gord, I do love my VM collection. There's nothing quite as satisfying as being able to run whatever OS you need, at a moment's notice. I especially love those "Microsoft Windows Support" trolls that call on the phone. I snapshot my vanilla XP VM and let them run loose in there, and I just tinker with things while they work. I love to remove the virtual disk while they're rummaging in the registry and then accusing them of sabotaging my PC. After they hang up in a panic I just roll back to the snapshot and resume my day.

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